Faith Alone

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Then you’ll agree that the Sheep, prior to the Sheep and Goat judgment, had passed from death to life, and, as Mt 25 proves, they do not come into judgment (Jn 5:24).
There is nothing in the passage that says exactly what you are saying. The sheep are indeed judged and it is clear from the context that God points to the things they have done. Likewise, we read this by the apostle Peter:

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”

If you are simply saying that those that are righteous at the time of judgment are not condemned by way of judgment, then we agree.
 
There is nothing in the passage that says exactly what you are saying. The sheep are indeed judged and it is clear from the context that God points to the things they have done. Likewise, we read this by the apostle Peter:

1 Peter 4:17-18
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?”
Alright, so unlike geezerbob, you don’t take the words of Christ at face value.

I thought Catholics are unified in their beliefs; I guess not; which of you two Catholics should I believe, geezerbob, who takes the words of Christ “at face value,” or Pax, who does not?

The word judgment in Jn 5:24 is krēsis, and it means judgment in the sense of “damnation,” or “condemnation.”

The Sheep are present at the Sheep and Goats judgment, however, they are not condemned.

That is what the Mt 25 states concerning the sheep; isn’t it, Pax?
 
Did you read the last sentence of my post? Did you read the entire post and what was clearly meant by it?
 
While verse 10 is important in that we are saved for works, it does not mean that we are saved through those works. We accept God’s grace through faith, not through works. That is the proper statement of faith alone, saved through faith, not saved by faith.
Please be advised that verse 10 is part and parcel of our justification. When we are first justified it does not involve anything that we have done. However, that justification involves being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared in advance of our justification. If we do not do the works prepared by the Father in advance of our justification, then we will not be saved because we will not be conformed to the image of His son Jesus. We will instead be conformed to the world which is of the flesh. Living in the flesh brings death. Living in the Spirit brings sanctification and eternal life.

You say that “we accept God’s grace through faith”…I agree. You say that we do not accept God’s grace “through works”. I agree, but I would also point out that the works that we do are by way of God’s grace, they are absolutely necessary, and that they “complete” our faith per James 2:22 and that as a result of completing faith they also “justify” per James 2:24.
 
Alright, so unlike geezerbob, you don’t take the words of Christ at face value.

I thought Catholics are unified in their beliefs; I guess not; which of you two Catholics should I believe, geezerbob, who takes the words of Christ “at face value,” or Pax, who does not?

The word judgment in Jn 5:24 is krēsis, and it means judgment in the sense of “damnation,” or “condemnation.”

The Sheep are present at the Sheep and Goats judgment, however, they are not condemned.

That is what the Mt 25 states concerning the sheep; isn’t it, Pax?
in His second coming Christ will JUDGE the world does this mean all who are left after the tribulation then are condemned?
 
Multitudes of people saw Christ, heard Him preach, witnessed miracles, and some the crucifixion - and never believed. One is not saved by believing in the existence of Jesus. It’s those aspects of His redemptive work that no man could or can see, but are revealed by God, that salvation faith is based on. Unbelief refuses to accept them and preaches works other than that which Christ alone accomplished,
Multitudes did in fact see Jesus preach. Multitudes likewise did not yet still were converted nonetheless. Examples would be Phillip and the Eunuch as well as the house of Cornelius. Those neither saw nor heard Jesus yet they believed. Salvation faith and faith in God is no different. There are just varying degrees to it which I shall teach you as we go along. You see Peter had true knowledge of God while Cornelius did not. Cornelius only had a calling and Peter’s words but nothing substantial to go on except maybe…a leap of faith?? 😃
once for all.Jesus and the Lawyer was discussed thoroughly in previous posts. But if you think men are saved by keeping the Law, then YOU really need to rethink what even basic Christianity is.
Here again you completely err in this part. Plus you avoided the theme about love for God and for humanity which God loves. Jesus clearly puts love foremost without even mentioning faith. As far as basic Christianity is concerned, I’m Catholic. That’s as basic as you can get. 🙂
Try reading the Epistles which explain it (especially Pauline).Paul reveals those aspects of the cross that could not be seen, but divinely revealed and believed for salvation. The doctrines of God’s grace through Christ are developed in the letters, not the Gospel accounts.
I do read the Epistles, not only Paul’s but those of James, John, Jude and Peter as well. I know the salvation they speak of and I know the salvation which Jesus speaks of. They are one in the same. The problem is…you don’t realize this. That is why you preach faith alone without knowing what faith really is and you disregard the essential need for love and hope. Hmmm…didnt Paul speak somewhere of Faith, Hope and Love and said the greatest of these is Love??:rolleyes: I guess he was having an off day then, huh? Otherwise he wouldn’t have spoiled your little faith alone scenario by writing that. I even know of a hymn based on that…There are but three thing that last…Faith, Faith, Hope and Love…but the greatest of these is Love.
It might sound pious that you look to the sayings of Christ in the Gospel accounts rather than Paul in his letters, but you cannot know or understand those things which could not be seen concerning the redemptive work of Christ apart from Paul’s Epistles; those things on which salvation, “by grace through faith,” are based. You cannot truly know Christ, or divine salvation, apart form Pauline theology. This is where you stumble terribly.
Well, shiver me timbers!!! Peter, John, James and Jude must have been wasting their time writing their epistles then. They should have just left it up to Paul, huh? Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquainas could have saved themselves a lot of time too, huh? I am usually called upon to lector the epistles of Paul at my parish. Why? Because I know how to bring the words of Paul to life. That’s because I understand Paul. He was egotistical, prideful and jealous of those who also preached the words of Jesus, especially Peter. His accounts of their interaction and Luke’s are two entirely different perspectives. Yet, despite his many shortcomings, Paul realized this and put the purpose of his mission as dictated by God first rather than his own viewpoints. His level of faith is the type in which I plan to teach you if you have the gumption to learn it.
God has not revealed to us why there is no salvation program for fallen angels. That’s conjecture on your part. However, we do know that the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so their fate is sealed.Your hypothesis is proven false since both unbelievers and angels end up in the same eternal abode (Matt. 25:41).
There again you err. Our fate is not sealed until we die. The fallen angels on the other hand, were condemned because they knew yet still they did not believe. It matters not that we end up in the same place. The point is we have the chance. The fallen angels had it all yet they threw it away for their own selfish purposes.
 
Michael never rebelled. He had nothing to be saved from.Michael is an archangel who stands guard over Israel (Dan. 12:1). He’s not revealed as the “defender of humanity,” nor is it revealed that he’s God’s most precious creation.Michael is not in need of salvation, period.
Michael had the chance to rebel as did all the angels. He was one that chose not to do so. And yes, he is the defender of humanity. Why do you think he stood guard over Israel? Why do you think according to Jewish legend that he argued and fought with the Devil over the body of Moses? You really should do a study in Jewish apologetics. As far as being God’s most precious creation, you misread that and that may have been my fault. I was refering to humanity, not Michael.
Again, the content of salvation faith is not one’s belief in the existence of God, but one’s faith in His word concerning Christ.To bring angels into the argument of the salvation of men is non sequitur.
To bring angels into this argument is essential. You see they have no need of faith for salvation. They were saved with true knowledge. If we possess knowledge that is true and pure then faith is not necessarry. Faith is only necessarry when true knowledge is unattainable. The lessons will continue as you present questions, grasshopper.

Oh and you never answered my challenge. I guess it was too difficult for you. :rolleyes:
 
in His second coming Christ will JUDGE the world does this mean all who are left after the tribulation then are condemned?
Depends upon ones view of the tribulation, and from your wording above, I have no idea what you believe concerning the tribulation.
 
Depends upon ones view of the tribulation, and from your wording above, I have no idea what you believe concerning the tribulation./QUOTE …Christ’s coming will be the end of the tribulation,then all those who have died in Him will be raised first then we who are left will be caught up with them.
 
[To bring angels into this argument is essential. You see they have no need of faith for salvation. They were saved with true knowledge. If we possess knowledge that is true and pure then faith is not necessarry. Faith is only necessarry when true knowledge is unattainable. The lessons will continue as you present questions, grasshopper.

. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE] becuase i have knowledge that the Eucharist is true then it could be said i have no faith in the Eucharist.Protestent teaching "faith is a response to God."did not the angels who remained with God respond to God?
 
Christ’s coming will be the end of the tribulation,then all those who have died in Him will be raised first then we who are left will be caught up with them.
Well then, with what you’ve stated, the “those” who are raised first, and the “we” who are caught up are believers.

So “them” who are left on the earth are “they” who are condemned.

That is, if my extension of your sequence is correct.
 
Well then, with what you’ve stated, the “those” who are raised first, and the “we” who are caught up are believers.

So “them” who are left on the earth are “they” who are condemned.

That is, if my extension of your sequence is correct.
k
 
Just a simple google search came up with the site.

preceptaustin.org/romans_611-23.htm
That link was the most upfront of any Protestant work I have seen, but it still does not remain consistent with its comments and failed miserably in its application. It says Rom 6:11 means one is to “count” themsef dead to sin because they really are dead to sin, but the article is inconsistent when it comes to Rom 4.
For example (the following are continuous paragraphs which I have broken up): Logizomaimeans to think about something in a detailed and logical manner, reason about it, pondering it and finally drawing conclusions through the use of reason. For example, Paul writes that

“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason (logizomai) as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.” (1Cor 13:11)
Yes, when Paul was a child he “reasoned” LIKE a child BECAUSE he ACTUALLY WAS a child. Logizomai means to put together with one’s mind. It means to regard as being, to count as true, or to occupy oneself with reckonings or calculations.

** Logizomai** was used in early secular documents as follows – “put to one’s account," “let my revenues be placed on deposit at the storehouse”, "I now give orders generally with regard to all payments actually made or credited to the government.”

Logizomai was a secular bookkeeping term which meant to make an entry in the account book or to put to one’s account. It carried the economic and legal meaning of crediting something to another’s account. It means to calculate or reckon, as when figuring an entry in a ledger. The purpose of the entry is to make a permanent record that can be consulted whenever needed. It means to credit money to a particular account. It means that when you deposit $1000, the bank credits your account with $1000. Therefore when you write a check for $500, you don’t worry about it because you are reckoning on the fact that money is actually in your account.
All these definitions are essentially true, YET NONE of them indicates looking at an object and imputing a status or quality the object does not really have. Notice how many times the term “calculate” and “ledger” are used, this is a term dealing with facts, accurate calculations, etc.

Notice the part highlighted in red. The Bank imputes “$1000” to your account BECAUSE that is ACTUALLY how much you deposited. When the bank imputes $1000 to your account that means there is really $1000 in your account. When faith is “imputed” as righteousness, then that means faith is considered to be a righteous act and that is because it ACTUALLY IS a righteous act and quality of your soul.

(cont)
 
(cont 2 of 3)

Now, do you think the article was consistent here in the very next few paragraphs?..
As alluded to above, probably the most notable use of logizomai with this meaning is when

“Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (logizomai - credited to his account) to him as righteousness.” (see note Romans 4:3)

Abraham believed God, and his act of faith was placed to his account in value as righteousness. He believed God and his act of faith was credited to him for righteousness. He believed God and his act of faith was computed as to its value, and there was placed to his account, righteousness. However, Abraham’s act of faith was not looked upon as a meritorious action deserving of reward. What his faith did do was provide a channel through which God worked His redeeming grace. Faith is a convicted heart reaching out to receive God’s free and unmerited gift of salvation.
The first half of this paragraph is fine,** but the second half (underlined) does not follow from the first half**. They start by saying faith was counted to be righteousness, and they end by saying faith was just a tool that reached out to grab hold of an external righteousness…two mutually exclusive definitions.
Logizomai is translated as “imputed” only once in the NASB (see note Romans 5:13) but nine times in the KJV (Click for the 9 verses).
This is a popular error that I see repeated in many books and articles. Romans 5:13 listed above does NOT use the term Logizomai, it is a DIFFERENT Greek word. This error is repeated so often I can hardly believe it. This EXACT error appears in articles by Calvinist William Webster and Im almost positive I saw it in James White book “The God Who Justifies”.
In Ro 4:8 (see note), the KJV reads “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” In other words the man is called blessed, ** to whose account** no sin is charged. At the Cross, his sin was **charged to the account **of the Lord Jesus.
Two major errors here, the same errors founded upon Protestant presumptions and inconsistent logic. Using the $1000 example above, if someone’s does not have sin “imputed” to their account then it can only mean there is ACTUALLY NO SIN in their “account”. Instead the Protestant interpretation is that there REALLY IS sin in the Christian’s “account” but ANOTHER account, Christ’s “account”, is looked at instead.

Second problem is that it says sin was charged to the account of Jesus, yet the Bible nowhere says this. Nowhere does the Bible say sin was imputed to Jesus.

(cont )
 
(cont 3 of 3)
In Ro 4:6 (see note), the man to whose account righteousness is put, is called blessed

“just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works”). (NKJV)
This is imputation, the ** act of putting something to someone’s account.** In the case of the Lord Jesus, the sin of the human race was charged to Him. In the case of the believing sinner, the righteousness of God, Christ Jesus Himself, is put to his account.

This is simply astonishing, the utter lack of consistency in applying “logizomai” (impute/reckon/count/etc) from the definition THEY gave. This WHOLE TIME they say “impute” means to credit to one account the contents of ANOTHER account, but that is NOT, NOT how logizomai is used. The Bank “imputes” $1000 to your account ONLY if your account ACTUALLY has $1000 in it.

The greatest act of eisegesis (reading a foreign idea into the text) is highlighted in red above. This passage in red is the FOUNDATION of Protestantism, but is so weak exegetically that it can only leave you speechless. NOWHERE does Romans 4 (or anywhere else) say the “righteousness of God” was reckoned to the sinner or Abraham in places like Rom 4:3 (“it was credited to him as righteousness”). NOWHERE is the “righteousness of God” said to be a sort of gas that is transfered across the courtroom and lands on top of the guilty man on trial, that it is “imputed” to the man on trial. NOWHERE in Paul’s teaching is the “righteousness of God” EQUATED with “Jesus” or “the Righteousness of Christ” (or any similar phrase).

They start off giving a definition of logizomai stating a bank only reckons $1000 if $1000 actually is in the account and the paragraph ENDS by saying Abraham’s faith was “logizomai” as righteousness means a FOREIGN value/status/quality, “Christ’s Righteousness,” was imputed to Abraham.

This article fell way way short of consistently applying “logizomai”, and again the reason why is because it would undermine the foundational concept of the “imputed Righteousness of Christ”.

All I ask is that people open their eyes to the truth here, what is the Bible really saying versus what Sola Fide is making it say.
In addition, as I have pointed out previously, most Protestants, including Calvin, recognized that salvation involves the imparting or infusing of a righteous nature. We place it under regeneration rather than justification. For Protestants of an Arminean bent it is even less problematic.
It is GRAVELY problematic. If you have stain in the rug that has just been removed by detergent then it is ILLOGICAL and superfluous for that part of the rug to require ANOTHER clean rug to cover where the stain was. It destroys the very heart of Sola Fide and runs headlong into the Catholic camp.
From the Calvinist Westminster Confession:
I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
 
No, they will take place at the same time. Because the person has been regenerated he is considered righteous. The whole is because of faith.
Ok. This is Catholic teaching, but I have had Reformists tell me here that one is regenerated when one is called, rather than when one responds to the call.
 
Greetings my friends.

I need to begin by apologizing for my lack of theological training. I often think it seems clear to me simply because I lack the understanding I need to see where it gets complicated.

So I ask you for patience with a genuine and sincere heart- for those of you that believe that faith alone saves.

How do you explain Matt 19:16-21?
Clearly the rich young man believed and had faith in Jesus Christ. He asked our Savior and Lord what he needed to do to gain eternal life. Wow. Here we have it. Someone asked our Lord what he needed to- and someone who clearly had faith otherwise why would he have asked him? What do I need to do to be saved?

Jesus didn’t say- you have Faith in me so you are good- no need to worry!
He said: Follow my commandments. Hmmm. Why did he say that?

The young man said: But I do that… what then did Jesus say? “Well you clearly have faith, and you clearly follow my commandments so rest assured you’re good!” No he didn’t say that. He didn’t say well “accept me as your Lord and Savior and be assured you have eternal life.” No. He said “If you wish to be prefect, go, sell what you have and give it to the poor… then come and follow me”. All actions. No words. No altar calls involved. Words from our Lord Jesus Christ himself.

Then again in Matt 25:31-46 our Lord again tells us what will happen at the Final Judgement and how we ill seperate “all the nations assembled before him”. He doesn’t say- I will seperate them by who has faith and who doesn’t! I will seperate them by who has accepted me as his personal Lord and Savior and who hasn’t! He says "then the king will say to those on his right, Come you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me… etc etc etc. Hmm. All actions- all works. He never said “you had faith in me and accepted me as your personal Lord and Savior- so come and live with me”. And then finally in verse 46 he says "and thee will go off to eternal punishment- but the RIGHTEOUS to eternal life.

Again, I apologize for my ignorance because the message from our Lord seems so very clear to me. I thank God that I have been so blessed as to be part of the only Church Jesus Christ founded 2000 years ago… A Church soooooo “Christ Centered” that we celebrate his Death and Resurrection every single day in the Holy Mass in all the nations… A Church so biblically grounded that our entire Eucharist service is in some way shape or form drawn from Holy Scriptures.

I guess that’s why I don’t get the confusion.

Thank you in advance for your patience.

Signed,

A cradle Catholic- that is Catholic by choice.
 
Let’s look at what a few church fathers had to say.

Cyril of Jerusalem
  1. For the name of Faith is in the form of speech one, but has two distinct senses. For there is one kind of faith, the dogmatic, involving an assent of the soul on some particular point: and it is profitable to the soul, as the Lord says: He that hears My words, and believes Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and comes not into judgment: and again, He that believes in the Son is not judged, but has passed from death unto life. Oh the great loving-kindness of God! For the righteous were many years in pleasing Him: but what they succeeded in gaining by many years of well-pleasing, this Jesus now bestows on you in a single hour. **For if you shall believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved, and shall be transported into Paradise by Him who brought in thither the robber. And doubt not whether it is possible; for He who on this sacred Golgotha saved the robber after one single hour of belief, the same shall save you also on your believing **-Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 5, Paragraph 10)
    newadvent.org/fathers/310105.htm
Clement of Rome
And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.-Clement of Rome (Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 32)
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm
John Chrysostom
But after saying that “it was excluded,” he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? “By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.-John Chrysostom, (Homilies on Romans, Homily 7)
newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm
What was the object of the Law and what the scope of all its enactments? Why, to make man righteous. But this it had no power to do. “For all,” it says, “have sinned:” but faith when it came accomplished it. For when a man is once a believer, he is straightway justified.-John Chrysostom, (Homilies on Romans, Homily 7)
newadvent.org/fathers/210207.htm
 
More from John Chrysostom
For as men, upon receiving some great good, ask themselves if it is not a dream, as not believing it; so it is with respect to the gifts of God. What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone be advanced to the highest favor…Against this he contends; for it seemed to them incredible, that a man who had mis-spent all his former life in vain and wicked actions, should afterwards be saved by his faith alone. On this account he says, “It is a saying to be believed.”-John Chrysostom. (Homilies on 1 Timothy, Homily 4)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.v.iii.v.html
They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, t**hey said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed **-John Chrysostom (Homilies on Galatians, Homily 3, Verse 8)
newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm
Ver. 12. “And the Law is not of faith; but He that does them shall live in them.”….For the Law requires not only Faith but works also, but grace saves and justifies by Faith.-John Chrysostom (Homilies on Galatians, Homily 3, Verse 12)
newadvent.org/fathers/23103.htm
For he makes a wide distinction between “commandments” and “ordinances.” He either then means “faith,” calling that an “ordinance,” (for by faith alone He saved us,) or he means “precept,” such as Christ gave, when He said, “But I say unto you, that you are not to be angry at all.”-John Chrysostom (Homilies on Ephesians, Homily 5)
newadvent.org/fathers/230105.htm
Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. “And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.” From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.-John Chrysostom, (Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 32)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vi.xxxii.html
 
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