Faith Alone

[moondweller]

I asked, in the context of “salvation through faith alone but not a faith which is alone” and the quotes of the ECFs denying a knowledge of our faith apart from charitable works (agape), And you answered

Well you apparently have not understood this issues surrounding this “assurance”. In this thread the Protestants have repeatedly affirmed that “salvation faith” is a faith that is known by its works - by the fruit it bears. This is how the entirety of James 2 has been explained away by them. In addition, several ECFs were quoted to support this view. Those ECFs, in the process of validating that works reveal our faith, go on to say that if works are not produced by the alleged faithful, then that alleged faith should be regarded as non-existent - both by the individual and those who know him. This brings us to the excellent point that Catholic Dude articulated: How many works must be produced to know that one has a saving faith and therefore has the assurance of salvation? The doctrine of Sola Fide simply falls flat. It doesnt address this issue in the slightest. What it does, OTOH, is produce a false sense of security that one knows they have faith apart from works of love and that it is Christ who accomplishes all things (apart from our cooperation with His finished work). That is not assurance, friend, it is self deception.

The rest of your response is more of the same old confusion regarding what the bible says, what the bible means by what it says and what the Catholic Church believes.

I think you misunderstand. Work on my part will NEVER provide assurance of salvation for me. Only a vacant cross and an empty tomb. My assurance rests in an historical event recorded in God-breathed Scriptures.Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.Faith alone, my friend. My assurance is in what God said concerning Christ and my justification. It’s as simple as that. It’s the unbeliever who complicates it all. HIS WORKS, not mine, is the ancient, Apostolic, gospel message.

 

[moondweller]

Actually, the confounding occurred at the Reformation.

No Catholic theology is built on “Biblical Revelation”.

I know.

All of it is built on the Teaching of Jesus through the Apostles.

And yet none of you can quote any Apostle apart from the Bible. Why is that?

The Bible is a reflection of that revelation,

Actually, it’s not a “reflection” at all. It’s the genuine article. What you read in the Pauline Epistles is exactly what Paul taught concerning Christ and salvation.

that is why there is nothing in Catholic theology that is contradictory from the Bible.

Well, we could start with:"For by GRACE you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the GIFT OF GOD; NOT as a result of works…"That would include your “sacred works,” don’t you think? The words of Christ: “It is finished” is reflected in all the doctrines of grace found in the Epistles.Heb 4:10 “For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”

The Theology and the New Testament came from the same single Source of divine revelation.

And all generations subsequent to the Apostolic age have only the Scriptures. Even the early church writers quoted profusely from them. They quote no Apostle directly. But only from Scripture.

Catholicism does not teach as “works” salvation.

Not even “sacred” works required for salvation? That’s your teaching. Is it contrary to Catholicism?

If it seems this way to you, then you do not understand Catholicism, or the Bible (or possibly both).

Or, maybe I do.

Catholicism is where the Teaching came from that “the power of God to save completely and perfectly through the cross of Christ.”

Actually that teaching comes straight from the Scriptures.

It is that Power of Salvation that enables us to become in actuality justified (not just “declared”) and to obey the commandments.

I have no problem with being “actually” justified. The actuality being based on my being no longer “in Adam” but now, forever, “in Christ,” the “Last Adam.” Positionally (in Christ) I am actually justified, made righteous “in Him” (Rom. 5:19). I am as righteous today as I’ll ever be. I have been gifted the perfect righteousness of Christ. And it is on this ground that God declares (reckons) me righteous.Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., the principle of law; works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"If it’s on the “basis of faith,” guanophore, then it’s “faith ALONE.”

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I think you misunderstand. Work on my part will NEVER provide assurance of salvation for me. Only a vacant cross and an empty tomb. My assurance rests in an historical event recorded in God-breathed Scriptures. Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.Faith alone, my friend. My assurance is in what God said concerning Christ and my justification. It’s as simple as that. It’s the unbeliever who complicates it all. HIS WORKS, not mine, is the ancient, Apostolic, gospel message.

your faith is a work my friend. Care to rephase your statement? You just sunk your own ship.

You discribed your “saving faith” as a “humble faith”, now you’ve reverted back to “faith alone” in this same thread. Why is that?

Why does an empty cross save you? Paul preaches that a cruxified Christ saves. Christ’s resurrection doesn’t save, his death does.

 

[fbl9]

moondweller…Collossian2:12"For you were buried together with Him in baptism…"sounds like a “work” to me.professing with one’s mouth that Christ is one’s savior is also a "work"which one needs to do inorder to be saved.Plips…3:12"Not that I have already obtained this,or already have been made perfect, but I press on…13…I “strain” forward…"sure sounds like St. Paul is “working” towards his goal.eh?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I know.And yet none of you can quote any Apostle apart from the Bible. Why is that?Actually, it’s not a “reflection” at all. It’s the genuine article. What you read in the Pauline Epistles is exactly what Paul taught concerning Christ and salvation.Well, we could start with:"For by GRACE you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the GIFT OF GOD; NOT as a result of works…"That would include your “sacred works,” don’t you think? The words of Christ: “It is finished” is reflected in all the doctrines of grace found in the Epistles.Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."And all generations subsequent to the Apostolic age have only the Scriptures. Even the early church writers quoted profusely from them. They quote no Apostle directly. But only from Scripture.Not even “sacred” works required for salvation? That’s your teaching. Is it contrary to Catholicism?Or, maybe I do.Actually that teaching comes straight from the Scriptures.I have no problem with being “actually” justified. The actuality being based on my being no longer “in Adam” but now, forever, “in Christ,” the “Last Adam.” Positionally (in Christ) I am actually justified, made righteous “in Him” (Rom. 5:19). I am as righteous today as I’ll ever be. I have been gifted the perfect righteousness of Christ. And it is on this ground that God declares (reckons) me righteous.Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., the principle of law; works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"If it’s on the “basis of faith,” guanophore, then it’s “faith ALONE.”

Is Paul somehow more important as a scriptural writer then the rest of the scriptural writers. Why not use all of scripture “in” context. Currently, you don’t Peter warned about people taking Paul out of context in his writings.

“It is finished” is a reference to Psalm 22, not what you imagine.

The NT scripture comes to you and I both thru the Church. You can choose to not believe that but in the end all you have is your falliable understanding to back up your belief.

 

[guanophore]

I know.And yet none of you can quote any Apostle apart from the Bible. Why is that?

Because what we have received from the Apostles is a world view, which includes the manner in which the Sacred Writings should be understood. In the NT, this is called The Way. It is impossible to reduce a lifestyle and a world view to a “quote”.

Well, we could start with:"For by GRACE you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the GIFT OF GOD; NOT as a result of works…"That would include your “sacred works,” don’t you think?

If I understand you correctly, then I think it does. However, what distinguishes sacred works from works of the flesh is that they are not coming from human ego, but from the grace of God. If you read on to the next verse (Eph 2:10) it is clear that the works God saved us to do come from Him, and not from ourselves.

The words of Christ: “It is finished” is reflected in all the doctrines of grace found in the Epistles.Heb 4:10 “For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.”

His work is completed, but ours is not.

And all generations subsequent to the Apostolic age have only the Scriptures. Even the early church writers quoted profusely from them. They quote no Apostle directly. But only from Scripture.

This is a falsehood that you have been taught. All those who have received the Faith of the Apostles have much more than the scriptures. The Reformers had to reject this, so that they could reject what they did not want from the Catholic Church. There are many quotes from the Apostles in the ECF, and in fact, every single quote in the NT is from them. The entire NT represents Sacred Tradition, from whence it was composed. The Sacred Tradition did not suddenly dissolve when the NT was penned!

Not even “sacred” works required for salvation? That’s your teaching. Is it contrary to Catholicism?

Catholicsm does not separate out the aspects of salvation as the Reformers do. To Catholics, the same grace that justifies us is the same grace that produces sacred works. A saving faith produces fruit that befits repentance. Catholics look at salvation diffferently, something that is past, present, and future. Since sacred work is part and parcel of the Christian life, and we are working out our salvation, good works will not be separated from our journey.

I am as righteous today as I’ll ever be. I have been gifted the perfect righteousness of Christ. And it is on this ground that God declares (reckons) me righteous.

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., the principle of law; works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,
​

This is sad to hear, as the scripture is plain that the believer is to grow in grace, and become more righteous day by day. If youhave already “arrived”, why not ascend into heaven to be with Christ? Why waste your holy time and energy daddling about in a sinful world? I thought it was “finished”?

If it’s on the “basis of faith,” guanophore, then it’s “faith ALONE.”

This is a misunderstanding of the text. Just because salvation is founded on faith does not mean it is “alone”. In fact, such a notion is entirely foreign in the scripture and the Apostolic Teaching.

1 Cor 13:13
“And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”

Faith is NEVER alone.​

 

[Philthy]

I think you misunderstand.

I dont think so my friend.

Work on my part will NEVER provide assurance of salvation for me. Only a vacant cross and an empty tomb. My assurance rests in an historical event recorded in God-breathed Scriptures.

I never said works alone provide assurance of salvation - you have unwittingly constructed a straw man. In addition, your claim that only a “vacant cross and an empty tomb” are what provide your assurance fails to distinguish how that reality doesnt apply to every individual on this planet. You have not gotten down to the nitty gritty of explaining how that reality applies to you any differently that anyone else. It is surprising IMHO how easily you are confused and fail to grasp the topic at hand. Let me recap, again, how we arrived at this topic.
We were discussing faith alone and its relationship to works, James 2 and the “justification not by faith alone” but that “a man is justified by works”. In addition, some comments from the ECFs provided by a solo fideist (SyCarl) were put forth as explaining that works “demonstrate” our faith, and that a salvation faith is “faith alone but not a faith that is alone” alluding to the works that a salvation faith will necessarily produce. Several of those ECFs stated that if someone does not have those works then they should not consider themselves among the faithful and neither should anyone else. In short, they said that if you lack charitable works you lack salvation faith. I responded that such claims render the notion of “salvation by faith alone” to be a useless doctrine and that if our charitable works are the means by which we measure OUR faith then
A) What constructive does the doctrine of Sola Fide provide? and
B) Does it provide assurance of salvation?
C) Did this doctrine alone justify the Reformation?

I have concluded that it contributes nothing positive or beneficial to the Catholic Faith handed on by the Apostles. It is an excellent antidote to anyone who preaches works alone as our means to salvation, however. But Catholicism has not now and never has advocated salvation by works alone or by any other means apart from the Crucifixion.
Spouting “We are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone” is simply begging the question, “How many works must we perform to know we have saving faith”? It is useless.

Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Faith alone, my friend. My assurance is in what God said concerning Christ and my justification. It’s as simple as that. It’s the unbeliever who complicates it all. HIS WORKS, not mine, is the ancient, Apostolic, gospel message.

Once again, the issue at hand is how we know that “we believe” and how we know that we “have faith” - not whether we are saved through faith. James and the ECFs seem to strongly suggest that we know our faith through our charitable works and that your notion of “faith alone apart from works” while possibly relevent in God’s eyes, it is entirely invisible to us and therefore provides nothing of substance to the person who wants to know, “Do I have saving faith in Jesus Christ that unites me to His Cross and the salvation that He came to provide for all men?”
So why dont you try to answer that question rather than the other questions you wished I had asked.

 

[Good_Fella]

My assurance is in what God said concerning Christ and my justification. It’s as simple as that. It’s the unbeliever who complicates it all. HIS WORKS, not mine, is the ancient, Apostolic, gospel message.

The problem is you fail to understand what God says. Your smudgy Pauline lenses are blinding you from the truth. Good works are necessary for our salvation along with our faith in Christ. Remove your foggy glasses just for a minute and see what our Lord tells us in the Gospel. Your understanding of Paul’s teaching contradicts the words of Jesus:

“He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared fro me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Truly, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU DID for one of these least brothers, YOU DID FOR ME.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, WHAT YOU DID NOT DO for one of these least ones YOU DID NOT DO FOR ME.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
{Matthew 25, 33-46}

Jesus is warning us that our salvation does depend on what we do or fail to do. When we do something for Jesus or fail to do something for Jesus, our salvation or damnation is not determined by what Jesus had done or failed to have done for himself. But this is the awkward conclusion one arrives at by your way of reasoning. We are not saved by faith alone and by Christ alone. It can’t be any less complicated than that.

According to your faulty understanding and interpretation of Paul our Lord’s words in Matthew 25 could be reshaped in this form: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least of my brothers, you did not do it for me, but I did it for me for you.” Again, "Whatever you did not do for one of these least of my brothers, you did not fail to do it for me, but I failed to do it for me for you. In other words, Jesus would be saying I have rewarded or punished myself for you. The Protestant misconception that our Lord was punished in our stead was not shared by Matthew; nor did he espouse the erroneous concept of ‘sola christu’. He understood that our salvation is a heavenly reward based on our good deeds in God’s grace and that we are punished for having failed to do these good works, in spite of our faith in the merits of Christ’s Passion which lend salvific value to our good works and merit to our deeds.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[moondweller]

your faith is a work my friend. Care to rephase your statement? You just sunk your own ship.

No. Faith is not a work according to God: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works.” If faith was a “work” that statement would be at odds with itself. But it’s you who are wrong, not Paul.

You discribed your “saving faith” as a “humble faith”, now you’ve reverted back to “faith alone” in this same thread. Why is that?

A humble faith is still faith, hence, still alone; “…not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” A humble faith boasts only in the Lord:1 Cor. 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Why does an empty cross save you? Paul preaches that a cruxified Christ saves. Christ’s resurrection doesn’t save, his death does.

I didn’t say an empty cross saves me. I said the assurance of my salvation is based on, rests in, the fact that the cross is vacant. His sacrificial work that procured my salvation was, “once for all,” “finished.”

I quoted Romans 4:25 which states that He was delivered up (to the cross) for my transgressions, allowing God to freely forgive me of them ALL:2 Cor. 5:21a “He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin, {to be} sin on our (my) behalf…“Part B of Rom. 4:25 states that He was raised because of our (my) justification. That of course refers to His bodily resurrection, meaning, an empty tomb. Which corresponds to the second half of 2 Cor. 5:21:”…that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (i.e., Christ resurrected).That’s “justification,” I am forever forgiven because of the crucified Christ, I am presently and forever justified in the resurrected Christ. My sins having been imputed to Him, His righteousness imputed to me. I died with Him; I now, and forever, live with Him.Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."These revealed truths speak to faith. They’re not experiential, nonetheless, they’re actual.

Is Paul somehow more important as a scriptural writer then the rest of the scriptural writers. Why not use all of scripture “in” context. Currently, you don’t Peter warned about people taking Paul out of context in his writings.

When it comes to presenting the “doctrines of grace,” pertaining to the cross of Christ, no other N.T. writer has as much content in his writings than Paul. In that respect, yes, his writings are, by default, more important. But ALL are God-breathed.

Peter warned that it’s the untaught and unstable distort Paul’s writings.

“It is finished” is a reference to Psalm 22, not what you imagine.

Ps. 22 is a prophetic psalm about the crucifixion of Christ.John 19:30 "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."His substitutionary, sacrificial work on the cross was finished. The price for my redemption was paid in full.

The NT scripture comes to you and I both thru the Church. You can choose to not believe that but in the end all you have is your falliable understanding to back up your belief.

The problem with that argument, Sean, is that I know where the Scriptures came from, and I know the human writers whom He used to pen them.

 

[moondweller]

moondweller…Collossian2:12"For you were buried together with Him in baptism…"sounds like a “work” to me.

It’s not my work. I don’t bury myself.

professing with one’s mouth that Christ is one’s savior is also a "work"which one needs to do inorder to be saved.

It’s the saved who confess Christ with their mouths and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead.

Rom 10:9-10 “…that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

They believe and confess what God accomplished for them through the substitutionary death and bodily resurrection of Christ. Not simply that it occurred in history.

Plips…3:12"Not that I have already obtained this,or already have been made perfect, but I press on…13…I “strain” forward…"sure sounds like St. Paul is “working” towards his goal.eh?

Yes, but that goal was not righteousness. That he already said is "through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. You need to keep Paul in context.​

 

[moondweller]

Because what we have received from the Apostles is a world view, which includes the manner in which the Sacred Writings should be understood. In the NT, this is called The Way. It is impossible to reduce a lifestyle and a world view to a “quote”.

The point is, guanophore, you have no more than anyone else, you must rely on the Scriptures. Nor did the early church writers - even they had to quote from the Scriptures.

If I understand you correctly, then I think it does. However, what distinguishes sacred works from works of the flesh is that they are not coming from human ego, but from the grace of God. If you read on to the next verse (Eph 2:10) it is clear that the works God saved us to do come from Him, and not from ourselves.

Then you agree with me that your so-called “sacred works” don’t save you. Those works Paul refers to in verse 10 are prepared for those who are now “created in Christ Jesus.” Those described in verses 8 and 9 as having been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works.

His work is completed, but ours is not.

Heb. 4:10 is about the believer entering "His rest."Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."It’s so simple only unbelief denies it.

This is a falsehood that you have been taught. All those who have received the Faith of the Apostles have much more than the scriptures.

The point is, guanophore, what was left for subsequent generations were the God-breathed Scriptures. As I said, even the early church writers quoted from them. NONE quoted directly from an Apostle.

There are many quotes from the Apostles in the ECF, and in fact, every single quote in the NT is from them.

Knock, knock. Hello??? The early church writers could only quote SCRIPTURE. None quoted the Apostles outside of Scripture. What was preserved for subsequent generations was HOLY WRIT.

Since sacred work is part and parcel of the Christian life, and we are working out our salvation, good works will not be separated from our journey.

But you veer off from the ancient gospel message by incorporating “good works” as contributing to one’s salvation. The Scriptures are VERY clear:"For by grace you have been saved…the gift of God, not as a result of works"You appeal to your “tradition,” but you tradition conflicts with God-breathed Scripture.

This is sad to hear, as the scripture is plain that the believer is to grow in grace, and become more righteous day by day.

Peter says to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” But nowhere do the Scriptures tell us to “become more righteous day by day.” The true believer has been imputed divine righteousness, the very righteousness of Christ (2 Pet. 5:21). This is perfect righteousness. It can neither increase nor decrease.

If youhave already “arrived”, why not ascend into heaven to be with Christ? Why waste your holy time and energy daddling about in a sinful world? I thought it was “finished”?

Well, if it was my will I would be gone. But I trust in the will and prayer of my Lord:John 17:13-17 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil {one.} They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.I am still in the world, but like my Lord, I am not of the world. I’ve been redeemed, sanctified and one day glorified. Like my father Abraham, in this world I walk by faith in what God has revealed concerning me: “For the righteous shall walk by faith.”

This is a misunderstanding of the text. Just because salvation is founded on faith does not mean it is “alone”. In fact, such a notion is entirely foreign in the scripture and the Apostolic Teaching. 1 Cor 13:13 “And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.” Faith is NEVER alone.

This is written to those who are already saved by grace, through faith, and not as a result of works (vss. 8-9). The believer does abide in faith, hope and love, but he is saved only by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[moondweller]

I never said works alone provide assurance of salvation - you have unwittingly constructed a straw man. In addition, your claim that only a “vacant cross and an empty tomb” are what provide your assurance fails to distinguish how that reality doesnt apply to every individual on this planet.

It applies only to those who believe. Do all men on this planet believe? Elementary, my dear Watson.

Spouting “We are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone” is simply begging the question, “How many works must we perform to know we have saving faith”? It is useless.

No. You fail to understand the quote. The quote simply divides the two respectively. We are saved by faith alone, but what that faith produces in works, does not save us. Again, very elementary.

A man can know he has saving faith not by what works it may produce, but in Whom he has put his faith, in Whom he has believed. It’s called “Abrahamic faith,” or, “the faith of Abraham”:Gen 15:6 Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness."The true believer concurs with Paul in that he knows in whom he has believed (2 Tim. 1:12).

Works are never an assurance of salvation faith (Matt. 7:21-23). Men are easily self-deceived. For this reason salvation must be based totally on the work of Another. And only He was qualified to perform the work necessary.

Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life. That would not be the case if Catholics would look to Christ alone. All doubt would diminish and they would enter His rest.

 

[moondweller]

The problem is you fail to understand what God says. Your smudgy Pauline lenses are blinding you from the truth. Good works are necessary for our salvation along with our faith in Christ. Remove your foggy glasses just for a minute and see what our Lord tells us in the Gospel. Your understanding of Paul’s teaching contradicts the words of Jesus:

“He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared fro me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Truly, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU DID for one of these least brothers, YOU DID FOR ME.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, WHAT YOU DID NOT DO for one of these least ones YOU DID NOT DO FOR ME.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
{Matthew 25, 33-46}

Jesus is warning us that our salvation does depend on what we do or fail to do. When we do something for Jesus or fail to do something for Jesus, our salvation or damnation is not determined by what Jesus had done or failed to have done for himself. But this is the awkward conclusion one arrives at by your way of reasoning. We are not saved by faith alone and by Christ alone. It can’t be any less complicated than that.

According to your faulty understanding and interpretation of Paul our Lord’s words in Matthew 25 could be reshaped in this form: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least of my brothers, you did not do it for me, but I did it for me for you.” Again, "Whatever you did not do for one of these least of my brothers, you did not fail to do it for me, but I failed to do it for me for you. In other words, Jesus would be saying I have rewarded or punished myself for you. The Protestant misconception that our Lord was punished in our stead was not shared by Matthew; nor did he espouse the erroneous concept of ‘sola christu’. He understood that our salvation is a heavenly reward based on our good deeds in God’s grace and that we are punished for having failed to do these good works, in spite of our faith in the merits of Christ’s Passion which lend salvific value to our good works and merit to our deeds.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

In that passage Christ separated them according to who/what they were: sheep vs. goats / believers vs. unbelievers. They weren’t separated by what they did. What they did was based on who/what they were. :tiphat:

 

[fbl9]

moondweller:
Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life. That would not be the case if Catholics would look to Christ alone. All doubt would diminish and they would enter His rest…fbl9…money not in the bank is not money totally saved yet.to be saved from hell and enter heaven is what i hope for and this HOPE is founded in Christ.i can not enter heaven in this life i have die first in order to born into eternal life.and as a catholic i know i will a have eternal life.and no other christian for that matter can know they are “saved”.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

No. Faith is not a work according to God: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works.” If faith was a “work” that statement would be at odds with itself. But it’s you who are wrong, not Paul. Your misunderstanding was already pointed as being not correct, nice attempt at a dodge. A humble faith is still faith, hence, still alone; “…not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” A humble faith boasts only in the Lord: So you admit that “faith alone” has some qualifers.
I didn’t say an empty cross saves me. I said the assurance of my salvation is based on, rests in, the fact that the cross is vacant. Assurance of your salvation is based on the sacrifical death of Christ not his rising. His sacrificial work that procured my salvation was, “once for all,” “finished.”

I am forever forgiven because of the crucified Christ, I am presently and forever justified in the resurrected Christ. My sins having been imputed to Him, His righteousness imputed to me. I died with Him; I now, and forever, live with Him.Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."These revealed truths speak to faith. They’re not experiential, nonetheless, they’re actual.When it comes to presenting the “doctrines of grace,” pertaining to the cross of Christ, no other N.T. writer has as much content in his writings than Paul. In that respect, yes, his writings are, by default, more important. But ALL are God-breathed.

Peter warned that it’s the untaught and unstable distort Paul’s writings.( )Ps. 22 is a prophetic psalm about the crucifixion of Christ. John 19:30 "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."His substitutionary, sacrificial work on the cross was finished. The cup of the blessing was finished. The end of the pascial meal. Sean, is that I know where the Scriptures came from, and I know the human writers whom He used to pen them. Do you? they were all Catholic, they were all in full communion with our Lord. Yet you probably describe yourself as protestant, protesting Christ’s Church. How can you claim to know them if you reject certain aspects of what they believed and taught.

 

[moondweller]

Do you? they were all Catholic

Really? “Eastern Orthodox” or “Latin?”

they were all in full communion with our Lord.

As am I.

Yet you probably describe yourself as protestant, protesting Christ’s Church.

I’m a member of Christ’s church. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into it.

How can you claim to know them if you reject certain aspects of what they believed and taught.

And just what “certain aspects” of theirs do you suppose I reject? I certainly don’t reject salvation by grace, through faith, not as a result of works. Do you? Or are you the “protester?”

 

[mikeledes]

Heb. 4:10 is about the believer entering "His rest."Heb 4:10 "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His."It’s so simple only unbelief denies it.

And yet Christians have not fully entered that rest:

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)

**10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. **

Diligence means effort or exertion:

**1. constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind. **

dictionary.reference.com/browse/diligence

God Bless,
Michael

 

[moondweller]

moondweller:
Catholics believe that works contribute to their salvation yet, ironically, no Catholic can know for certain that he is saved or has eternal life. That would not be the case if Catholics would look to Christ alone. All doubt would diminish and they would enter His rest.

fb19: money not in the bank is not money totally saved

But salvation is gifted. It’s not worked for. One does not save up for it.

yet.to be saved from hell and enter heaven is what i hope for and this HOPE is founded in Christ.

But true faith knows he IS saved (Eph. 2:8), and that he now has a heavenly citizenship (Phil. 3:20-21).

i can not enter heaven in this life i have die first in order to born into eternal life.

1 Pet 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

and as a catholic i know i will a have eternal life.

Yet the Apostle John wrote so that the true believer would know that he HAS eternal life. This life he says in in the Son; he who has the Son HAS the life.

and no other christian for that matter can know they are “saved”.

Except those who trust only in the work of Another.

 

[moondweller]

And yet Christians have not fully entered that rest:

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)

10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Diligence means effort or exertion:

**1. constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind. **

dictionary.reference.com/browse/diligence

God Bless,
Michael

Their disobedience was unbelief. He who has believed has entered His rest.

 

[mikeledes]

Their disobedience was unbelief. He who has believed has entered His rest.

According to the text, it says we must be diligent to enter that rest. If we have entered that rest, then there is no need to be diligent, which requires exertion or effort. Note that the inspired author uses “us”, which means he’s including himself.

God Bless,
Michael