Faith Alone

[guanophore]

I don’t think Paul could get any clearer than “not as a result of works.” It’s not that Paul is being misunderstood here, guan, but there are those who refuse to believe his teaching.Paul says “by grace through faith…not as a result of works;”

I think it is clear, also, but it is evident that we see it differently. How are we to resolve such a dispute?

Paul here is speaking of works of the law, works that come from ourselves our own ego, or our flesh. Those works that might be the basis for boasting. He is not speaking of holy works, which are part and parcel of salvation. It is sacred work that he speaks of when he reminds us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:12-13

The working out of the salvation is not separated by the Apostle from the grace of God in us that is working it. It is the source and motivation of the work, whether it is based in self, or based in grace, that makes the difference.

Jesus says "*Your faith* has saved you," yet you continue to insist on works, contending even that faith itself is a work.See what I mean?  Grace can flow through the act of the human will?  What is this theology, guan?   Some sort of new age mumbo-jumbo?

It is called Apostolic Teaching, moondweller. The Apostles never separated faith from the actions it produces. This did not occur until heresy arose. One early one was Pelagianism, which was addressed by the Church in the early centuries. Other similar heresies arose during the Reformation, and are continuing to spawn.

Do you deny that faith is a work, even though Jesus plainly says that it is?

What makes you think that grace does not flow through human will?

" To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:21-23

Do you imagine that Paul believes he can “save some” apart from God’s grace? Do you think he is not making acts of his will, so that others can be saved through him?

No he’s not. The Ephesians were Gentiles and were never under the Law, had nothing to do with the Law of Moses. Nor is there any such thing as the Levitical Law.

There were both Jews from the diaspora an Gentiles in the Ephesian Church. Remember when Paul went to Ephesus, he went first to they synagogue, as he did in every city. But, it does not matter if it is a Jew trying to earn their way into heaven by keeping the law, or a Gentile trying to earn their way by their own “being good”, both are ineffective. No work that does not spring from grace will have any eternal value.

By works, guan? By doing something to make grace flow (whatever that means). No, but by the blood of Christ.Eph 3:11-12 "{This was} in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him."Not in accordance with our works, guan, but in Christ Jesus, in whom believers (even Gentile believers like the Ephesians), have boldness and confident access (how?) through faith in Him.

The things we do to make the grace flow we call “cooperation” with the grace of God. I think you would agree with me that God desired all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God pours out his grace on all, drawing all to the father. Not all respond, so the grace is not effective unto salvation. Those that choose to respond to grace are given more grace.

" Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says,

“God opposes the proud,
but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:5-6

 

[guanophore]

No. The faith through which God Himself saves by grace (unmerited favor) must be inactive passive) in respect to salvation. It believes God concerning the redemptive work of His Son alone. The good works Paul mentions are prepared for those who have believed and are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them.Eph. 2:8-9; cf. Rom. 11:6.To the contrary, to mingle the two is apostasy and presents a “different gospel” other than grace. As Paul states it: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Then you do have a reading comprehension problem.

Don’t you find it interesting that EVERY SINGLE TIME that Jesus said “your faith has saved you” the person did something? Or if not him, someone close to him, like the paralytic they dropped through the roof?

The Apostles always have the grace of salvation connected to the grace that produces the fruit of it. I agree with you that there is a “different gospel” being presented, and it began at the Reformation,where, in an effort to separate themselves from abuses by the clergy, they also separated themselves from the Apostolic Teaching. No one is saying that sacred work is the “basis” of salvation, as you keep insisting. We are saying that grace is the saving element, an that grace works through both belief and action. Saving faith is not a “passive” faith. If it were, then everyone would be saved, even those who choose not to respond to the call of God. I don’t think you believe that, do you?

In 2 Cor. 5:21 Paul essentially states that our sins were imputed to Christ with the goal in mind that the believer would then become “the righteousness of God in Him.” Our sins imputed to Christ (on the cross), the resurrected Christ’s righteousness imputed to the believer. What’s a foreign concept to Apostolic teaching, guan, is the notion that justification is based on the lack of, and the avoidance of, sin. The ancient Apostolic teaching is that a man is justified (1) as a gift, (2) by His grace, (3) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). The Apostolic teaching on justification is summed up in these words:“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justified the ungodly, his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

Again you are mixing sacred work with fleshly work. We agree that he Apostolic teaching is that salvation is an unmerited gift, that we acquire by faith. We agree that this is merited for us by the work of Christ on the cross. I think where we disagree is what is meant by God’s righteousness. Scripture is clear that nothing unclean will enter heaven, therefore, God does not want snow covered dunghill. He wants the holiness in which we are clothed at baptism to become our actual state.

" Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled." Heb 12:14-15

The pursuit of peace and holiness is something that people must do in order to see the Lord. God will provide the grace that is necessary for us to get there, but we must cooperate with that grace. When we do, we obtain more grace.

" …so that you may lead lives worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God." Col 1:10

It is impossible to lead a life worthy of the Lord without effort. This effort is “ergo hagatho” - good work or holy work. The Apostles don’t separate this good work from the grace of justification that produces it.

What is foreign to the ancient, Apostolic teaching is the doctrine of “infused” righteousness upon the act of ritual baptism. liking it to putting new wine into old wine skins. Which Christ Himself depicted inevitable ruin (Matt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; Lk. 5:37-38; cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10). That’s why there can be no assurance of salvation with that kind of theology.

You misunderstand the Catholic teaching on infused righteousness. The Apostles taught that when we are baptized, we are a “new creation”. The new wine goes into a new skin. We are “created in Christ”. The old has passed away, and the new has come.

“Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers — none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1 Cor 6:9-11

Paul tells the Corinthians that they were washed, they were sanctified. This is an actual state of purity, not just someone declaring them pure. If their actual state did not change, then they could not be justified before God, since they were clearly sinners.

I merely said the doctrines of grace are found primarily in Paul’s Epistles. By default they draw greater importance.

Well, I understand what you are saying. This is not Apostolic teaching either.

 

[guanophore]

True. But He has, upon faith in Christ, GIFTED me salvation, justification and eternal life (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:24; 6:23).Try as you will, you’ll never get passed, nor change, the Apostolic teaching of “…not as a result of works” You try to qualify works by assigning some to be “sacred,” but the Apostolic principle still stands in the sacred writings: Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

I am not trying to get “passed” that our justification is not merited. I was making the point that sacred work is part and parcel of salvation. Catholics don’t separate salvation into parts as the Reformers do, because the Apostles did not do this. Even sacred work does not “merit” salvation for us. Nothing but Christ’s work on the cross can do that.
Remember Cornelius?

" He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God." Acts 10:1-2

Why did God choose him to be the first Gentile convert? Did he “merit” such a thing?

“Cornelius…Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.” Acts 10:3-4

I think we would both agree that it was his faith that was acting. God “remembered” him because of his actions, prayers and almsgiving. These are holy deeds - actions that demonstrate faith. By them, did he “earn” salvation? No way. It was by grace he was saved, through faith. Works were not absent. The works accompanied the faith.

Paul was an Apostle, period. And his teachings remain consistent with that of Christ’s: "Your FAITH has saved you."Which is why the Catholic “gospel” differs from that of the Apostles: “…not as a result of works.”

We agree that Paul was transmitting Apostolic Teaching. The disagreement comes from how you and I interpret what Paul is saying. The Catholic Gospel IS the Apostolic gospel. All the writers of the NT were Catholic. We agree that justification is by grace, and not based on works. I think where we have disagreement is that you want to separate works from saving faith. It is easy to see from the example of Cornelius above that his saving faith was expressed in what he did.

Yes. Meritorious works. This assumption is in compliance with your “works gospel” and the erroneous idea, with its disastrous result, that one can put new wine into old wine skins.Can you show me this official, Apostolic commentary on all the Scriptures? Is this something hidden in a vault in the Vatican? Did all twelve Apostles contribute to this writing or just some? Not even your magisterium has provided you with official commentary on all the Scriptures.

I think you misunderstand what happens in baptism, and that is why you make this comment about wineskins.

2 Cor 5:16-18
" So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ…"

How can you call God’s new creation an “old wineskin”?

The catechism is the official promulgation of Apostolic Teaching. If you are reading the posts in the thread, then you can see that you have been wrongly taught about Catholicism. There is a quote from the council of Trent I just read above that refutes this erroneous conception.

But then they shouldn’t have to if this Apostolic Commentary on the Scriptures actually exists.Show me. Where in the Greek does it say “For by faith through sacred works are you saved”?

No one is saying this but you, moondweller. You are the one who is not distinguishing sacred from fleshly work, and you are the one trying to separate faith from it’s fruit, and make it stand “alone”. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith that works. It is the quality of the faith.

The Greek in my Bible specifically states: “ouk ex umôn” (not of works) “theou to dôron” (gift of God).

Right. We agree on this point. No one can do sacred works without grace. The grace that produces them is what makes them sacred. However, even sacred work such as Cornelius performed with prayers and alms does not save. Only grace saves.

That’s again your “new wine in old wine skins” doctrine. He saved me by grace, through faith, giftwise, for Christ’s sake and to His own glory.Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

We agree on the point that God saved us for Himself. He is glorified in our good deeds. These good deeds cannot be separated from the grace that produces them.

 

[guanophore]

We who belong to Him (His own possession) through Christ’s redemptive work are to live a godly manner of life, zealous for good works, but we are neither saved by our godly manner of life nor by our zeal for good works, but through faith in Christ alone.The problem is that Catholics believe they contribute to salvation through their works. Thereby nullifying “promise” which is linked to faith.

No, the fact that our sacred deeds contribute to our sanctification and holiness takes nothing away from the fact that they are based in grace.

" Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:15-16

I am sure that both of us agree that it is impossible to grow in holiness and to become, in actuality, holy without grace.

Works? Of course! To the exaltation of Christ and the purity of the ancient, Apostolic message.

I understand what they were trying to do, but the ancient apostolic message does not separate out pure behavior, holiness, and righteous deeds from salvation. They are part and parcel of becoming the rightousness of God in Christ.

" But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; look forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies." Jude 19-23

The apostle instructs us to “build yourselves up” in the faith. This is something that people do - a work. These verbs are all in the imperative mode (commands). We are to keep ourselves in the love of God, have mercy, save others, hate evil, etc. These are actions that people do. They are part of working out our salvation.

2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10.  The confomity of our yet unredeemed bodies follow.I am believing what God has revealed, which is that my sins were imputed to Christ and the righteousness of God has been imputed to me.  That I am now "*...**found in Him***, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (a principle of works), but that which is through faith in Christ, **the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of FAITH**" (Phil. 3:9).Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, **but believes in Him** who justifies the ungodly, **his faith** is credited as righteousness,"Righteousness is reckoned (credited) based on faith.You cannot be transformed, experientially, into "the righteousness of God" while in these yet unredeemed bodies.   Experiential sanctification is not justification.

I agree that none of us will arrive at a point of glorification until we have our new bodies. However, we can be transformed into the righteousness of God. The more we are sanctified, the more our imputed justification becomes actual justification. This is clear in the example of Abraham, who was repeatedly and continually justified by his actions throughout life. Transformation into the righteousness of God in Crhist is our spiritual worship. In the East we call this “Theosis”, or becoming like God. He wants to perfect in us the image and likeness of Himself from which mankind fell.

Rom 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God — what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[guanophore]

Yes. According to Catholic soteriology, which is a salvation based on works. But Biblical soteriology explicitly states that salvation is “not as a result of works.” Biblical salvation is unconditional because Christ’s redemptive work is its guarantee.

You have been wrongly taught about Catholic soteriology. You are also misunderstanding the role of works in salvation. Part of the problem is semantics. When Catholics speak of salvation, we speak of it as having a starting point, working itself out, and something which will be completed. When you use the word, you are speaking only of what we call “initial” justification (the starting point).

 

[guanophore]

Here is the Catechism on Justification:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

I think you will not find anything here about it being ‘works based’.

Why are you here, moondweller? Do you really want to learn anything, or are you just going to persist in your current state of misinformation?

Catholics wrote the Bible, and it perfectly reflects Catholic theology. What would it take to convince you, if anything would, that you have misunderstood Catholicism?

 

[kaycee]

You have been wrongly taught about Catholic soteriology. You are also misunderstanding the role of works in salvation. Part of the problem is semantics. When Catholics speak of salvation, we speak of it as having a starting point, working itself out, and something which will be completed. When you use the word, you are speaking only of what we call “initial” justification (the starting point).

At Catholic “initial” justitication, if one dies seconds later, will that person be “saved”, go directly to heaven?

 

[Philthy]

moondweller;:

But James does not at all say works save or justify you.

"…a man is justified by works…"James 2:24 You know this verse as well as I do. He absolutely says that works justify us. What you mean to say is that he didnt mean it the way I understand it - but he absolutely said that a man is justified by works. The pressing question for you - and all sola fideists - is of what value is the statement if he meant that works simply reveal our faith? Why bother including such a confusing statement in Scripture at all? How does that build up the body? How does it lead someone to faith or salvation or anything? You have no good answers to these “simple” questions.

You miss his point completely. On the other hand: Rom 3:23…Rom 4:5 …

Ummmm…lets see - you are trying to explain away James’ comments by apppealing to Paul??? Sorry, but your claim that I have missed the point is simply your opinion. I believe you have missed the point and we remain no closer to determining how either one of us may have an “assurance” based on faith alone.

You’re equating works with faith.

No Im not - that is simply your opinion, or perhaps something you would prefer to argue against rather than the difficult material which your “simple” answers inadequately address.

That’s not what James was expressing. It’s actually a distortion of his words.

I would say that this is the peak of your desperation. What I have presented is the biblical and Apostolic truth. My claims come straight from James’ letter, while you continue to attempt to explain away James with your misunderstanding of Paul somehow believing that it will fly here on CA. Perhaps that flies in the circles you surround yourself with, but it wont fly here.
Let me quote a nice Protestant translation of the verse for you and you can tell me where Im distorting things:
“In the same way, faith by itself (ie faith alone), if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” That’s the NIV - and the translaters clearly understood James to say that faith without works is dead.

They asked Jesus what works they should do that they may work the works of God. Jesus instead told what the “work of God” was. And that was that they BELIEVE in Him whom He sent. IOW, what God required of them was not works but faith in Him.

Oh those are “other words” alright - they are your words and your interpretation - and I think that you are the one distorting things. The Jews asked what works they should do and Christ answered that the “work” they should do is to believe. Believing is a “work” under the law of Grace which distinguishes the new Covenant from the Old one and its mosaic works. Using Scripture alone, one can claim that belief is a work according to Christs words. Now you are free to believe that he meant to say “Don’t do any works, just believe in the one whom God has sent” - but you cant impose that belief on anyone else or use it as a criterion for having salvation faith. Apart from an infallible interpreter to determine otherwise my opinion remains as valid as yours. I didnt distort anything - you simply dont like the facts the way they stand.

Agreed.

Amen for that!

But standing up to sin doesn’t save you from the penalty of sin.
From this you must be redeemed, and that through precious, sacrificial blood, the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

If you meant to say that standing up** -alone - **to sin doesnt save you from the penalty of sin, then we agree again. I never claimed it did, however. And of course we need to be redeemed - our Redeemer lives!

It is in this glorious, revealed truth regarding the believer’s new position in the resurrected, glorified Christ that the believer is to walk by faith, and his behavior is to reflect it during his stay on earth:

Could you please explain your unusual use of the term “is to” in the above sentence. It is vague. I dont understand what you mean by it, and I dont understand its relationship to salvation and faith alone.

Col 3:5-10 "Therefore consider (reckon) the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience (not the believer now “in Christ”), and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them (in unbelief).
​

​

Well, I must say that this interpretation of “believers” being exempted from the Gods judgement of disobedience and your attempt to define “living in disobedience” as unbelief while maintaining that “believers” and obedience dont go hand in hand is a close second to your desperation in interpreting James. Somehow you like to point out the “disobedience” of unbelievers and God’s judgement of them, but cant bring yourself to accept that believers must distinguish themselves from unbelievers by their obedience. The rest of it was pretty good though…

But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, {and} abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self (i.e., crucified with Christ) with

Uhh, who laid it aside? I did? you did? Interesting…is that a work?

 

[moondweller]

moondweller:
Yes, God will save you based on faith plus love.

**Odell: **
Hello faith plus love how can faith plus something be a faith that is alone?

I was agreeing to the fact that faith plus love is a part of the Catholic requirement for salvation. I believe that the Scriptures are clear: “By grace, through faith, gifted, not as a result of works.” Faith plus nothing. :bigyikes:

If you knew the power of Christ you would know that it does not simply impute you are infused with righteousness

“New wine into old wine skins” is a formula for ruin. And how is righteousness “infused?” Is there some kind of divine syringe God uses?

 

[guanophore]

At Catholic “initial” justitication, if one dies seconds later, will that person be “saved”, go directly to heaven?

Yes, this is the Apostolic Teaching. At baptism we are washed, sanctified, and justified. Our soul is pure. If a person did not commit any other sins after this, then there is no impediment to heaven.

 

[guanophore]

I still argue, as does Scripture, that the assurance of salvation is based on the historical, finished work of Another:

Actually, scripture does not “argue”, and does not have “logic”. Scripture is a witness to the teachings. By projecting these human characteristics on to the scripture you are using it improperly.

Catholicism offers no assurance of salvation. “Assurance” is not a part of its soteriology.

Scripture has many assurances for believers. Just because one does not embrace a different gospel of OSAS does not mean there is no assurance. But the OSAS position is described in scripture as immature, so Catholics don’t settle for it.

Why that’s the case has been discussed often.Poor, unbiblical logic.

You have given reasons that you think so, which are based on your erroneous understanding of what the teaching is.

And those who have not believed would include those who add works to their soteriology.What part am I not understanding? The works part? The uncertainty of salvation? The uncertainty of “eternal” life (an oxymoron)?

Such statements reflect your misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching on the role of works. You refer to them as “their” (emanating from self). We are in agreement that such works have no bearing on salvation!

Eternal life is not what is uncertain. What is uncertain is the fickleness of human beings. persons continue to have free will after encountering Christ,and can spurn His grace. The nature of eternal life is not changed by this, only their participation in it.

I explained above how you can know if you’ve truly put your faith in Christ. True faith bears fruit by the fact of regeneration and a new creation.

Upon belief the believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit that he might understand the things of God (1 Cor. 1:10-16), and “created in Christ Jesus” FOR good works (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 5:17). But the believer in no way, shape, or form is saved BY those works, but rather “by grace, through faith” in Christ alone.

If you believe this about regeneration, they why do you keep talking about the old wineskins?

Christ is never “alone”. He never separates Himself from His Body, the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Not necessarily

It seems like you are saying that, if others don’t interpret the scripture the way you have been taught to do, that they don’t necessarily believe the Bible.

But not exclusively.

I posted what the Catholic Church teaches about justification. It is exclusive of works. I think if you were to read what the catechism says on this matter honestly and with an open mind (and heart) you would have to agree.

Yes. And they believe works complete their salvation.

No, you misunderstood on two counts. Catholics don’t consider initial justification to be the end of salvation. Secondly, the works complete our faith, upon which the salvation is based.

You mean that you should walk in them FOR completing your salvation. Hence, you do not believe you are yet “fully” saved nor yet “fully” created in Christ Jesus. Because you do not believe the previous two verses which state "For by grace you have been saved through faith…a gift of God…not as a result of works."But not apart from works, hence grace is not grace (Rom. 11:6).

You are misunderstanding the basis of the works again, and mixing up works of the flesh sacred works. If you cannot make this distinction, then you cannot understand Catholic soteriology. Otherwise,if I understand you correctly. Catholics believe that there is a certain point in time (baptism) in which we are justified and begin to walk with God. At that time, we are regenerated. This is a past event. We are also “being saved” as long as we are on the earth, and we “will be saved” when we are glorified in heaven. We could say that a zygote (fertilized egg) is a human being - fully so. If this life is nurtured, it will grow into the person it is patterened to become. 20 years later, it is not any more or less human than it was the moment of conception, but it is different in character, appearance, and function.

Yes, God will save you based on faith plus love.I know.

It would be more accurate to say “faith working through love”.

This one verse in James is the foundation of Catholic soteriology.Yes. One cannot overtly demonstrate (“show me your faith” vss. 17-18) his faith to others without works.

No, Catholics take ALL the passages about salvation together. We don’t just separate out certain ones that reinforce our preconceived notions.

Nevertheless, God saves by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9; Jn. 3:14-18).

You are welcome to believe whatever you like, of course. Why are you here, moondweller? If you are so certain what you think Catholics believe, and are not willing to be corrected, do you have another goal?

But I do not believe the context in which you present them.That’s because you have not put your faith in Christ alone, His redemptive work alone, or the surpassing greatness of God’s power toward us who believe, the hope of His calling, the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, which are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly (Eph. 1:19-20).

I hope you are listening to yourself here. You are saying that you do not believe what we are saying to you. You say that you do not believe the official publication of the Church on what is taught. You are judging the state of our souls and the quality of our faith on the basis of your own beliefs. Personally, it seems to me to be the epitome of hubris to come to a Catholic board and present yourself in such a manner.
moondweller;3850595:

If you understood the power of God through Christ then you too would have absolute assurance of salvation. As John said, 1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe

in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life".So you see, God desires that all who truly believe have absolute assurance. If one does not, there’s something drastically wrong with their faith. Most likely it’s focused on their own works, rather than exclusively on Christ’s (which floods the heart with assurance).

Now that you have thoroughly judged the quality of our faith based on your own personal interpretation of the text (whch interpretation constitutes a “different gospel” than the Apostles taught), and determined that there is “something drastically wrong”, what next?

 

[guanophore]

But James does not at all say works save or justify you.

James does not separate works from the saving faith that produces them. James is describing a quality of faith. He is making the point that saving faith is faith that works.

You're equating works with faith.  That's not what James was expressing.  It's actually a distortion of his words.

No, the works are not “equated” they are descriptive of the character of saving faith. The works “complete” or “perfect” the faith.

They asked Jesus what works they should do that they may work the works of God. Jesus instead told what the “work of God” was. And that was that they BELIEVE in Him whom He sent. IOW, what God required of them was not works but faith in Him.God sent the Son into this world to accomplish His will on man’s behalf.

You are inserting “instead” where it should not go. Jesus is saying that the work of God is faith. This work is produced in people by His grace, that is why it is His work and not ours. He is explaining the difference between sacred work and works of the flesh. Believing in Christ requires a continual application of the will and mindful cooperation with the grace that has been provided to us. This is our spiritual worship.

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” God doesn’t “empower us” to accomplish His will by grace.

What makes you think not? Do you think God commands us to do things that He will not enable us to do?

You are contradicting yourself by such a statement. You have previously agreed that it is God’s grace at work in us that empowers us to turn to him and receive His grace by faith. It is not possible to obtain saving grace without the empowerment of God! Otherwise you are saying we save ourselves, and it is not a gift.

But standing up to sin doesn’t save you from the penalty of sin.

Hmm. I am wondering how you square such a statement with this:

" For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality." Rom 2:6-11

In that chapter Paul reveals that the believer also was crucified with Christ (i.e., all who he was in Adam), and he who has died is “freed” (or, acquitted) from sin (Rom. 6:7). As Christ died “to” sin, “once for all,” so did the believer with Him. As Christ was then raised to new life, so the believer was raised to new life with Him. That’s what it means to be “created in Christ Jesus.” That is, the resurrected Christ.

I can’t understand how you can say this, then talk about putting new wine into old skins.

It is in this glorious, revealed truth regarding the believer’s new position in the resurrected, glorified Christ that the believer is to walk by faith, and his behavior is to reflect it during his stay on earth:Col 3:5-10 "Therefore consider (reckon) the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

You know, this is a very good example of how the word “reckoned” describes an actual state.

But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, {and} abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self (i.e., crucified with Christ) with its {evil} practices,

Sounds like a lot of work to me!

and have put on the new self (raised up with Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly) who is ***being renewed ***to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- (a reference to our a new creation “in Christ”; see 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

Sounds like cooperation with grace so that one can be transformed.

Because while in this yet unredeemed body the *regenerated* believer is to walk in a way that his present *condition* reflects his now glorious *position* in the resurrected Christ.  (**2**) The believer is exhorted to walk in a manner that honors his Father:[indent]Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."Even the Law of Moses instructed the Israelite to honor his father, how much more the believer his Heavenly Father?  And do not fathers instruct their children on good behavior to prepare him for adulthood?  A son isn't on probation and officially becomes a son only if he behaves correctly.  He is a son by birth.  The believer is a son by (**1**) *rebirth* (1 Pet. 1:3; (**2**) *adoption* (Rom. 8:15; Eph. 1:5; and (**3**) a *new creation* (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

Except for the ‘probation’ part this is very Catholic. A son can squander his inheritance and renounce his birth rites. That does not mean he had them conditionally in the first place.

 

[Pax]

moondweller,

You apparently don’t believe that Jesus said and meant that faith is a work.

You have also made it clear that Paul’s articulations are of overriding importance and that we cannot understand Jesus as you do without understanding Paul as you do.

Please be advised that the quote from John’s gospel is not the only passage of scripture noting that faith is a work.

Jesus reiterates this in the following:

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "**I know your works, your love and faith **and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This may not be good enough for you because the statements are made by Jesus rather than Paul, but let me now present Paul’s comments that further confirm the point that faith is a work.

In 1 Thess 1:1-3 Paul says:

PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this clears up this issue once and for all.

 

[fbl9]

just what is “faith” anyhow but the God given ability to believe.being able to beleive doesn’t save but what one believes with faith is what saves.

 

[Pax]

I was agreeing to the fact that faith plus love is a part of the Catholic requirement for salvation. I believe that the Scriptures are clear: “By grace, through faith, gifted, not as a result of works.” Faith plus nothing. :bigyikes: “New wine into old wine skins” is a formula for ruin. And how is righteousness “infused?” Is there some kind of divine syringe God uses?

You are displaying a startlingly low level of scriptural understanding.

Matthew 9:17 (new wine and old wine skins) has nothing to do with what you are trying to say.

Your sarcasm about a “divine syringe” is actually a rather ugly and blasphemous statement toward God. Try the following scriptures:

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Phill 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the** power at work within us **is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will **strengthen you **and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

1 Peter 4:10-11
Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, **and may become participants of the divine nature. **

John 15:5
**I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from **

You should be considerably more circumspect in making poorly thought out and unholy remarks about things that are clearly spoken of in scripture.

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you deny that faith is a work, even though Jesus plainly says that it is?

What makes you think that grace does not flow through human will?

" To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:21-23

Do you imagine that Paul believes he can “save some” apart from God’s grace? Do you think he is not making acts of his will, so that others can be saved through him?

Thank God for this forum! I learn so much about our Catholic faith and others.

Your qoute reminds me of

**Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you. 1 Tim 4:16 **

Clearly Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body. The only alternative meaning I can think of is that we actually save ourselves (but we know that is not the case).

I wonder how someone who believes in “faith alone” explains this Scripture?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[guanophore]

Thank God for this forum! I learn so much about our Catholic faith and others.

Your qoute reminds me of

Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you. 1 Tim 4:16

Clearly Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body. The only alternative meaning I can think of is that we actually save ourselves (but we know that is not the case).

I wonder how someone who believes in “faith alone” explains this Scripture?

Peace,

Ryan

I wonder that too! Maybe moondweller will help us. Since it is a Pauline letter, and they have the primacy with regard to salvation, there must be a way to explain it.

 

[Good_Fella]

Yes. According to Catholic soteriology, which is a salvation based on works. But Biblical soteriology explicitly states that salvation is “not as a result of works.” Biblical salvation is unconditional because Christ’s redemptive work is its guarantee.

According to the Gospel of Moondweller there is no need for us to repent in order to have our sins forgiven and be saved. Salvation is unconditional.

Our salvation is open to us on condition Christ has redeemed us. There is no guarantee anyone will persevere to the end. If there were, we would have to dispense with the Christian virtue of hope. Our perseverance in obedient faith guarantees our salvation, since Christ has redeemed the world. Our Lord’s redemptive act is completed by our act of faith. Unless Christ has redeemed us, our salvation cannot result from our works. He has saved us and called us through grace, not by virtue of the works we do outside his grace.

…who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
{ 2 Timothy 1, 9 }

For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
{Romans 8, 24}

"And pray ye without ceasing on behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls rise again, and he may attain to God.’ "
Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

Yes. According to Catholic soteriology, which is a salvation based on works. But Biblical soteriology explicitly states that salvation is “not as a result of works.” Biblical salvation is unconditional because Christ’s redemptive work is its guarantee.

According to the Gospel of Moondweller there is no need for us to repent in order to have our sins forgiven and be saved. Salvation is unconditional.

Our salvation is open to us on condition Christ has redeemed us. There is no guarantee anyone will persevere to the end. If there were, we would have to dispense with the Christian virtue of hope. Our perseverance in obedient faith guarantees our salvation, since Christ has redeemed the world. Our Lord’s redemptive act is completed by our act of faith. Unless Christ has redeemed us, our salvation cannot result from our works.

For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
{Romans 8, 24}

"And pray ye without ceasing on behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls rise again, and he may attain to God.’ "
Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella