Faith Alone

[Pax]

Hi Tim,
…
…
We must also be carefull to clearly define terms. Faith to a Catholic is not the same as Faith to an evangelical. For a Catholic faith is usually mental assent to doctrine and can also be the summation of the belief system, like what does your faith teach, similar to saying what does your denomination teach. Faith for the evangelical is usually thought of as heartfelt Faith (In Christ) that results in regeneration.

I would agree with the first statement that “We must also be carefull to clearly define terms.” Unfortunately, you did not do that. Instead, you mischaracterized Catholic teaching on the meaning of the term faith. The thoroughness of Catholic teaching on this theological term covers a considerable amount of ground and your rendition is far from true.

 

[guanophore]

I think you are on the right track. How can we add to what Christ has perfectly done? Can our works even as believers compare to what Christ has already accomplished? Please read what Paul had to say to those who only wanted to add circumcision to Christ’s finished work. Circumcision by itself, for a Jewish believer might be considered a good work!

It is not so much that we can “add”, but we can participate, and be included in what He has perfectly done.

" Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and **in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions **for the sake of his body, that is, the church…" Col 1:24

Now would Paul, of all persons, ever imply that anything was “lacking” in the sufferings of Christ? Surely not! Yet, there are experiences that we have as human beings that Christ did not have. Paul lists a few of his own:
2 Cor 11:23-29
I am talking like a madman - with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant? "

Paul had many experiences that Jesus did not, just as Jesus promised him:

“I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” Acts 9:16

Did Paul think that his suffering could “add” anything to Christ? No, it is clear from his writings that he understood the suffering of Christ to be complete. What, then, does the Apostle mean when he says “make up what is lacking”?

Each of us has a unique human experience, and as we take up our cross and carry it, in the grace of God we are able to join our sufferings with His, for the benefit of the Body of Christ. This is part of our spiritual work, our worship.

“I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” Rom 12:1-2

It is our part to “prove” by presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice.

We must also be carefull to clearly define terms. Faith to a Catholic is not the same as Faith to an evangelical. For a Catholic faith is usually mental assent to doctrine and can also be the summation of the belief system, like what does your faith teach, similar to saying what does your denomination teach. Faith for the evangelical is usually thought of as heartfelt Faith (In Christ) that results in regeneration.

This is a very prejudicial statement, and sad to read, but not surprising coming from someone who never understood Catholicism. I agree with you, Catholic Faith is that faith taught by Jesus, and reflected in the NT. Catholic faith is that in which we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, and one in which we join our sufferings with that of Christ, to make up what is lacking.

 

[kaycee]

This is a strawman argument. Catholics do not claim that we add something to Christ’s work and therefore somehow save ourselves. Likewise, we do not compare what we do by the grace of God with Jesus salvific work on the cross. Moreover, we agree with Paul about circumcision.

Clearly the Catholic MUST cooperate with the Grace given by Jesus. It is not Jesus alone. It is you and Jesus.

As a result it not entirely by Grace, unmerited favor. It becomes unmerited favor AND paid wages.

Now that merit has entered the picture, boasting IS a possiblility.

Now that merit from cooporation is needed, Peace (Shalom) that transcends all understanding, can never be attained when you must wonder if you have done enough to satisfy your end of the cooperation bargain.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who **does not work, but **believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

 

[Pax]

As a non-Catholic, you would argue that a person must have faith to be saved. In other words you must believe in order to be saved. This is a work and a gift. I can show you in scripture where it proves that faith is a work. Your argument against Catholic teaching applies to your theology in exactly the same fashion that you are trying to apply it to Catholic teaching. It appears that you may be confused about both.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

And when someone mortally sins after having faith that unbelief is is credited as unrighteousness.

Die in that state and you go to Hell.

What’s so hard to understand about that?

 

[kaycee]

As a non-Catholic, you would argue that a person must have faith to be saved. In other words you must believe in order to be saved. This is a work and a gift. I can show you in scripture where it proves that faith is a work. Your argument against Catholic teaching applies to your theology in exactly the same fashion that you are trying to apply it to Catholic teaching. It appears that you may be confused about both.

Faith is actually a gift. God gives you the Faith to believe. God could not write this if it were not a true free Gift. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the **gift of God **is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

And the gift of Hell goes to those who mortally sin.

What part of that do you not understand?

 

[kaycee]

And the gift of Hell goes to those who mortally sin.

What part of that do you not understand?

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

 

[Pax]

Faith is actually a gift. God gives you the Faith to believe. God could not write this if it were not a true free Gift. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the **gift of God **is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is a gift and a work. Likewise, all that we do in Christ that is good is a also by grace just as our faith is by grace. All of these are gifts and all the credit goes to God.

Scripture says that faith is a work…why do you deny that?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So what? Christ came to save everyone–some mortally sin–those that do and die in that stqate go to Hell–they have chosen hell and jesus loves them enough to let them go there.

Faith does not automatically unquestionably and without a doubt always lead to perseverance.

Catholics are honest enough to admit that is true.

Protestant mortal sin deniers claim that is impossible.

Satan claims it, too.

If the Cross was not instaneous–why would faith be instanteous?

if God is continuing why would grace be branding and not continuing?

How does instanteous branding of a person bring God glory?

God could always redeem like that if He chose–what would that prove?

How loving would God be by imposing His will if the very essence of love is as Corinthians says "not demanding its own way.

Catholics believe that God does not demand His own way even after faith.

God will still let a person go to Hell if that is what they want to do.

If He didn’t He wouldn’t be loving!

God justifies Abraham on three different occasions in Genesis.

If once were enough why would the scriptures tell us of him doing it three times?

 

[emeraldisle]

As a non-Catholic, you would argue that a person must have faith to be saved. In other words you must believe in order to be saved. This is a work and a gift. I can show you in scripture where it proves that faith is a work. Your argument against Catholic teaching applies to your theology in exactly the same fashion that you are trying to apply it to Catholic teaching. It appears that you may be confused about both.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sin, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:4-9

.

 

[guanophore]

Clearly the Catholic MUST cooperate with the Grace given by Jesus. It is not Jesus alone. It is you and Jesus. As a result it not entirely by Grace, unmerited favor. It becomes unmerited favor AND paid wages.

It is not just “Catholics” that must cooperate with the grace, but anyone who wants to be saved. One cannot cooperate with grace, though, apart from grace, and since all grace is unmerited, your conclusion is false. How can you think that anyone can merit salvation?

Now that merit has entered the picture, boasting IS a possiblility.

Paul did do some boasting about his holy works - those that God prepared beforehand that he should walk in them. However, he was clear that all such boasting is foolish, since we cannot fulfill the works that God has in store for us apart from His grace.

Now that merit from cooporation is needed, Peace (Shalom) that transcends all understanding, can never be attained when you must wonder if you have done enough to satisfy your end of the cooperation bargain.

Is this formulation your reason for leaving the Catholic Church? If so, I can understand why you left. I am sorry that you were so poorly catechized. It is obvious that you never grasped salvation by faith until you abandoned this ridiculous idea, which is not taught by the Catholic Church, but erroneously believed by some persons who used to call themselves “catholic”.

Merit is actually not “needed”. In fact, a paralyzed person who is unable to help himself, or anyone else (except perhaps by intercessory prayer) or a disabled person who can’t even do that is perfectly able to recieve salvation. However, unto those whom much is given, much will be required.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who **does not work, but **believes ****in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

So, I think what you are missing in your soteriological formlation is that righteous deeds (holy works) are not separated from justification by faith. When one separates them, they are nothing more than works of the flesh, and have no eternal value.

 

[guanophore]

Faith is actually a gift. God gives you the Faith to believe. God could not write this if it were not a true free Gift. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the **gift of God **is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Faith is a gift, but it is given to humans. Faith is as much a part of our human makeup as our eyes, ears, hands, feet, emotions, reason, etc. Faith is the faculty through which we apprehend grace. God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. However, only those whose faith is mixed with grace will actually enter into eternal life.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sin, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:4-9

This passage is speaking of works of the flesh, or works of the law, not of the holy works which have been prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Pax]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sin, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:4-9

.

Catholics believe that we are, indeed, saved by grace. On this point we can all stand up and cheer in agreement.

Your post is fine until you quoted Ephesians and decided to stop at verse 9. Let’s look at Eph 2:8-10. It says:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

I placed verse 10 in bold for emphasis. Please note that at the moment we are justified, we are God’s workmanship and not our own. Likewise, we are simultaneously created in Christ Jesus for good works. Moreover, these works were prepared by God in advance of our justification that we should walk in them.

Everything is by grace. We are justified by God’s grace. We are God’s workmanship by God’s grace. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works by God’s grace. We are to walk in these good works by God’s grace. All of the credit goes to God. All of the empowerment comes from God.

Here are some more verses that help illustrate this:

Rom 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

2 Cor 5:14-15
For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Phil 1:6
And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Phil 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

Heb 2:18
For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted

Heb 13:20-21
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in you that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This is not an exhaustive list…I could add many, many more.

 

[BamaRider]

I really didn’t pay much attention to this stuff till I joined CAF a few months ago.

Forgive me if I sound too simplistic, but that’s just me.

Many Protestants believe my salvation is complete when I accept Jesus as my savior. There is nothing more I can do here on this earth, it’s a done deal. I believe therefore I’m saved?

Does this mean I’m saved even I never grace the inside of a church, “not attending church, but I believe.” That because I’m human and imperfect I should not strive to be? I am not held accountable for the things I do in this life that do not follow God’s law? " God knows I’m not perfect, so what the heck, I’ll skip church and go fishing, and do my worshiping from the chair of my bass boat." I just don’t understand that concept.

 

[Newbie2]

James posted this on the other thread (about Mary).

To me he here illustrates the difficulty of the RC view of justification. Constant failings that lead us to damnation until penance. All my Evangelical eyes read is working to attain the attainable.

God simply calls us to be too holy. It is impossible. Being cloaked in Christ’s righteousness seems to be our (well at least my) only chance.

This is probably my biggest theological problem with the RCC. Try as I might, I do not believe any of me (my works, nature, efforts, etc…) can stand before God and His righteous throne on judgement day. I plan to hide behind Christ and his work.

Thanks,
Tim

Um, that’s pretty much what Catholic theology says, except the “hide” part.

 

[emeraldisle]

I really didn’t pay much attention to this stuff till I joined CAF a few months ago.

Forgive me if I sound too simplistic, but that’s just me.

Many Protestants believe my salvation is complete when I accept Jesus as my savior. There is nothing more I can do here on this earth, it’s a done deal. I believe therefore I’m saved?

Does this mean I’m saved even I never grace the inside of a church, “not attending church, but I believe.” That because I’m human and imperfect I should not strive to be? I am not held accountable for the things I do in this life that do not follow God’s law? " God knows I’m not perfect, so what the heck, I’ll skip church and go fishing, and do my worshiping from the chair of my bass boat." I just don’t understand that concept.

I think you are confusing the “position” & the “practice” of a Christian.

The “position” of a Christian is that he is a child of God through the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. The Christians faith is in Lord Jesus and He gives him the wonderful “position” of being a child of God.

The “practice” of a Christian is his life as a child of God, he now seeks to live a life that glorifies(pleases) God because he is a child of God. This “practice” of a new life as a child of God does not change his “position” as a child of God. His “position” as a child of God has been firmly established by what the Lord Jesus has done on the cross.

A Christian should want to live right before God because of Gods great love and mercy shown to him through the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross.

.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

Why should I practice anything to please God? I’m already saved right? I can just sit on my behind all day long and at the very end God will be just as pleased with me because of the “finished work of Lord Jesus on the Cross”, right?

In fact, if nothing I do can remove my salvation as you say, I can be as mean and uncharitable as I possibly can without hurting anybody and still get to heaven right?

I didn’t know becoming a Christian and getting a free pass to heaven was so easy.

 

[kaycee]

It is not just “Catholics” that must cooperate with the grace, but anyone who wants to be saved. One cannot cooperate with grace, though, apart from grace, and since all grace is unmerited, your conclusion is false. How can you think that anyone can merit salvation?

Not sure you understand. I am certainly not saying official catholic doctrine says works only salvation, although i find that probably close to 90% of american catholics do think that very thing. I do not believe in Christ + anything for salvation. The RCC does. Call it merit, works, etc.
Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The RC claim that it is all grace rings hollow, especially when cooporation is required.

Ludwig Ott emphasizes this in these words:

Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ…The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified eternal life is both a gift or grace promised by God and a reward for his own good works and merits… According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward…for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp.254, 264).

Paul did do some boasting about his holy works

Not for Salvation.

Is this formulation your reason for leaving the Catholic Church? If so, I can understand why you left. I am sorry that you were so poorly catechized. It is obvious that you never grasped salvation by faith until you abandoned this ridiculous idea, which is not taught by the Catholic Church, but erroneously believed by some persons who used to call themselves “catholic”.

I Actually had no intention of leaving the RCC but was thumbing thru a catechism while preparing for marriage, when at work a baptist minister friend showed me what the bible said and God thru the scripture opened my eyes to salvation and regenerated me. I was on fire for about 6 months. My new wife thought i was crazy. I could not stop testifying to how God had radically saved me. I could not sleep for the first 3 nights after being touched by GOD. The Bible came alive the Lord JESUS is real and I can stand by His atonement and be accepted by the Father! I was however somewhat torqued that the RCC had anathematized the saving Gospel in the council of Trent. The rest as they say is history.

Merit is actually not “needed”. In fact, a paralyzed person who is unable to help himself, or anyone else (except perhaps by intercessory prayer) or a disabled person who can’t even do that is perfectly able to recieve salvation. However, unto those whom much is given, much will be required.

An interesting thought, possibly true for the crowns but not for Salvation.

So, I think what you are missing in your soteriological formlation is that righteous deeds (holy works) are not separated from justification by faith. When one separates them, they are nothing more than works of the flesh, and have no eternal value.

Certainly they have value in God’s eyes, but not for salvation. We have been saved while we were God’s enemies, Dead in trespasses and sins. All we will ever have are filthy rags brought to bring to Him. I cannot find scriptural support for the RC salvation formula.

 

[kaycee]

Catholics believe that we are, indeed, saved by grace. On this point we can all stand up and cheer in agreement.

Your post is fine until you quoted Ephesians and decided to stop at verse 9. Let’s look at Eph 2:8-10. It says:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Your interpretation turns this verse on its head. First its not works, then it is works.

Everything is by grace. We are justified by God’s grace. We are God’s workmanship by God’s grace. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works by God’s grace. We are to walk in these good works by God’s grace. All of the credit goes to God. All of the empowerment comes from God.

Trent puts a different spin on it. Ludwig Ott emphasizes this in these words:

Justification is the declaration of the righteousness of the believer before the judgment seat of Christ…The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified eternal life is both a gift or grace promised by God** and a reward for his own good works and merits**… According to Holy Writ, eternal blessedness in heaven is the reward…for good works performed on this earth, and rewards and merit are correlative concepts (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp.254, 264).
Actually the scriptures say that it is unambiguously by Faith. Works come after and is our reasonable duty. Those who have been regenerated WANT to do the works because they have been saved.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

this is sanctification not salvation

2 Cor 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

again this is not pertaining to salvation

Phil 1:6 And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Phil 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Phil 4:13I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted. Help against sin, not salvation

Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in you that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

This is not an exhaustive list…I could add many, many more.

All wonderful verses, but not pertaining to salvation.