Faith Alone

[Pax]

cont. from prior post:

Peter says, “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

All of this sheds light on what it means to be a new creation. Eph 2:8-10 speaks of justification in the juridical sense as well as the transformational sense. We are not simply declared righteous but we are made righteous because God’s word goes out in power and does not return to him empty. We are made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. God’s word and grace accomplish that which is his purpose and they prosper within us unto salvation.

What is loftier, holier, and godlier…a declared righteousness by imputation of Christ’s merits, or to actually be made righteous by his merits and to be a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works? Which is more scriptural? Which is more consistent with God’s power? Which is more consistent with his purpose? Which view reflects not only God’s purpose but also shows how God’s grace prospers in the thing for which he sent it? Scripture indicates that it is the Catholic view which includes a renewal and rebirth of the inner man as opposed to only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner.

I hope this helps.

 

[rtconstant]

Ok give me the Bible references for your comments in post #44, so I can be like the Bereans and check if what you are stating is biblical truth.

Well, the Gospels are a good place. I guess I’m kind of surprised by your question. Are you saying that you never saw the correlation between our accepting of Christ and Mary’s acceptance of the Christ child? I’m just a little surprised because even when I was a Protestant I assumed that was a given. Are you sure you’re not just getting a knee jerk reaction because I mentioned Mary? I’m not getting on you but to me it just seems like an obvious example of our own Faith journey.

I thought it pertinent because Mary who was “full of grace” was able to give her fiat to accept the Christ Child just like we receive the grace to give our fiat to Faith and good works. Does that make more sense to you? God provides the ability (grace) to do what is right but because He was wants us to chose Him of our own free will we are allowed to accept or turn away from that grace.

 

[kaycee]

Do you not know what the bible says about sanctification and salvation?

In speaking of entering heaven scripture tells us the following:

Rev 21:24-
y its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day–and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean shall enter it, (you must be sanctified in order to enter heaven)

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (another statement showing the requirement of sanctification)

Now look at what scripture says about sanctification:

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood. (Notice this is exactly what Jesus did for our justification)
Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified. (our heavenly inheritance is tied to our sanctification. You do not inherit eternal life without first being sanctified.)
1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: (more of the same)

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.
(another very direct connection…sanctification’s end is eternal life.)

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, (those that are sanctified are adopted sons and daughters…they have the inheritance of eternal life.)

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (again, we are justified and sanctified by the same means.)
1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: (same is true of justification)

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (**salvation **through sanctification by the spirit)

It should now be obvious that we are not saved without being fully sanctified. That means that we are not saved by faith alone. Likewise, scripture says another thing or two that proves that we are not saved by faith alone. Here’s another one:

Romans 8:24 (KJV)
“For we are** saved by hope**”

There are many more verses that talk about salvation that go well beyond simply talking about faith. If you need them, I will be glad to provide them.

My stance can succinctly be seen here.
answers.org/theology/salvation.html

 

[kaycee]

Are you saying that the goal of sanctification is not righteousness?

The goal is perfect holiness.

Do you believe that every Christian is “like Christ” at death?

Yes, Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Jesus told His apostles to “teach all that I have commanded you”, and these are the things they taught. I think the only error you are making is your conception of the word “works”.

Jesus gives commands to believers, not to become believers.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Can you please show where you find this in the documents of Trent? I think Trent said the opposite. In fact, it has been a consistent teaching of the Church for 2000 years that a person who is baptized and immediately dies will immediately go to the presence of Christ.

Canon 9 of the Council of Trent states
“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the obtaining [of] the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

Canon 14
“If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.”

Please explain how works are irrelevant here:

" Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James 2:21-26

"Justification by Works" Defined by Paul and by James
So when James says in verse 21 that Abraham was “justified by works” he has a meaning in mind different from Paul’s when Paul denies that a man is justified by works **(Romans 3:28; 4:2; 4:5).**James is answering the question: Does the ongoing and final reckoning of Abraham’s righteousness depend on works as the necessary evidence of true and living faith? James’ answer to that question is Yes. And Paul’s answer is also Yes, in Galatians 5:6 (the only thing that counts is “faith working through love”). If you ask James and Paul, “How does an ungodly person get right with God and receive the righteousness of God in Christ as a gift?” both James and Paul would answer with the words of James 2:23: “Trust God (trust Christ) and that faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.”

But if you ask them, “Does justification as an ongoing and final right standing with God depend on the works of love?” Paul is going to say, “No, if by works you mean deeds done to show that you deserve God’s ongoing blessing (**the point of Romans 4:4).” **And James is going to say, “Yes, if by works you mean the fruit and evidence of faith like Abraham’s obedience on Mount Moriah.” And Paul is going to say, “I agree with the James, based on his definitions.” And James is going to say, “I agree with Paul, based on his definitions.”

So when Paul renounces “justification by works” he renounces the view that anything we do along with faith is credited to us as righteousness. Only faith obtains the verdict, not guilty, when we become Christians. Works of any kind are not acceptable in the moment of initial justification. But when James affirms “justification by works” he means that works are absolutely necessary in the ongoing life of a Christian to confirm and prove the reality of the faith which justifies.

For Paul, “justification by works” (which he rejects) means “gaining right standing with God by the merit of works.” For James, “justification by works” (which he accepts) means “maintaining a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love.”

To put it yet another way: When Paul teaches in Romans 4:5 that we are justified by faith alone, he means that the only thing that unites us to Christ for righteousness is dependence on Christ. When James says in James 2:24 that we are not justified by faith alone he means that the faith which justifies does not remain alone. These two positions are not contradictory. Faith alone unites us to Christ for righteousness, and the faith that unites us to Christ for righteousness does not remain alone. It bears the fruit of love. It must do so or it is dead, demon, useless faith and does not justify.

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1999/1085_Does_James_Contradict_Paul/

 

[ChrisWRIT]

By kaycee
Yes, we believe that our standing for eternal salvation is based on Jesus perfect atonement for the believer, Justification.

Questions:

Does God require blood to forgive?

Did God the Father punish Jesus?

By kaycee
The difference is imputed righteousness vs infused righteousness.

Exactly, which brings up another question:

Is God a liar?

Chris

 

[kaycee]

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

That is not correct, Judas was never a believer.

John 13:18
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.

John 6:39
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

John 18:9
**"to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.” **

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

OSAS believers also depend heavily on 1 John 2:19 which says:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

Were the false teachers at one time true believers?

 

[emeraldisle]

This truth of wandering off in sin and then being restored is spoken of elsewhere in scripture as well. For instance in James 5:19-20 it says,

What about Peter, didn’t the Lord Jesus pray for him that his faith would not fail. Does the Lord Jesus not pray for all who are His? Peter’s faith would have failed if the Lord Jesus had not prayed for him and so as the Lord Jesus kept Peter in the faith so He keeps all who are His.

*But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:32

 

[emeraldisle]

Well, the Gospels are a good place. I guess I’m kind of surprised by your question. Are you saying that you never saw the correlation between our accepting of Christ and Mary’s acceptance of the Christ child? I’m just a little surprised because even when I was a Protestant I assumed that was a given. Are you sure you’re not just getting a knee jerk reaction because I mentioned Mary? I’m not getting on you but to me it just seems like an obvious example of our own Faith journey.

I thought it pertinent because Mary who was “full of grace” was able to give her fiat to accept the Christ Child just like we receive the grace to give our fiat to Faith and good works. Does that make more sense to you? God provides the ability (grace) to do what is right but because He was wants us to chose Him of our own free will we are allowed to accept or turn away from that grace.

Where are the Bible references for your comments in post #44, so I can be like the Bereans and check if what you are stating is biblical truth.

Maybe you don’t have any Bible references for your comments?

.

 

[rtconstant]

Where are the Bible references for your comments in post #44, so I can be like the Bereans and check if what you are stating is biblical truth.

Maybe you don’t have any Bible references for your comments?

.

Oh! I hadn’t realized you hadn’t read the Gospels (the first four books of the NT). I’ll go over the parts that I was specifically speaking of but do read all of them as they tell of Christ’s life and ministry here on earth.

OK. First there is the Angelic Salutation this is when the Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary and told her what God had in store for her and her Son. She consented to this and this is sometimes called the “Fiat”. This even can be found in: Luke 1.

Mary then carried Jesus within her. His presense in her was so strong that others even the unborn could feel it. This can also be found in Luke 1.

Also when a mother carries a baby within her they share air and food, water and such. This isn’t specifically found in the Bible but it is commonly understood biology. I hope that doesn’t exclude it here.

When Jesus was born He was presented to the world. Luke: 2, Mat: 2

He was subject to her but yet she kept His words in her heart. Luke: 2

She was with Him till the end at the Cross where that her heart was pierced as prophesied by Simeon. John: 19.

Now a lot happened in between here to. Take special head to the entire book of Matthew as it there is a great deal of “doing” being talked about there.

Now I have one more thing to caution you with. You keep making reference to the Bereans. Keep in mind that the Thessilonians also sought their answers in the Scriptures. Yet turned Paul away. Be sure you’re not just seeing what you want to see there.

 

[guanophore]

Why is the Lord Jesus blotting out the names of those whom His Father has given Him and He has promised to keep?

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

Because they fall from grace:

Rev 3:1-6
"… know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. 2 Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God. 3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Christians who become sluggish, weak, and imperfect in works in the sight of God will not conquer.

Ok give me the Bible references for your comments in post #44, so I can be like the Bereans and check if what you are stating is biblical truth.

John 14:21
21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

The more we walk in His commandments, the more Jesus manifests Himself to us.

John 15:10-11
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Keeping His commandments makes us to abide in Hiim, and the more we abide, the more our joy is made full.

Rev 2:4-5
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Falling away from our first love will cause the light of Christ to be removed from us.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Now I have one more thing to caution you with. You keep making reference to the Bereans. Keep in mind that the Thessilonians also sought their answers in the Scriptures. Yet turned Paul away. Be sure you’re not just seeing what you want to see there.

Not to mention that the Bereans only referenced OT scripture (which was all that existed), & even that had to be explained to them, or “opened up to them” as it was to the apostles by Jesus on the road to Emmaus & later on Pentecost.



Chris

 

[sandusky]

Questions:

Does God require blood to forgive?

Did God the Father punish Jesus?

Is God a liar?

Yes

Yes

No

 

[Pax]

My stance can succinctly be seen here.
answers.org/theology/salvation.html

kaycee,

Thank you. I read the link and it really didn’t refute my post. This article is not designed to address what I said. I doubt that the author is even remotely aware of the angle that I presented. Moreover, the author of that article is not responding to my post.

I think that you should be able to do better since you read my post. That having been said, my request still stands.

 

[Pax]

That is not correct, Judas was never a believer.
…
…

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

Were the false teachers at one time true believers?

Let’s see what scripture has to say about this.

Judas is an example of a believer that perished. Judas is never referred to as a pseudo believer or someone that lacks root. Judas is described as a traitor. This is very important. He believed in Jesus and he betrayed his Lord and Savior. Please note that at the marriage feast of Cana Jesus worked his first miracle and scripture tells us that His disciples believed in Him[John 2:11]. Clearly, Judas had faith. Jesus picked the twelve apostles and in Matthew 10:1 it says that Jesus, “….called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” Even Judas was given the authority over unclean spirits and the power of healing. Judas was a believer and he is never described as not having any root or not being a true believer. Instead he is described many times as a traitor and even as having stolen money from the common purse.

According to scripture there is only one time that Judas did not believe Jesus. In John Chapter 6:64 Judas is pointed out as one of those that did not believe Jesus when He promised to give us His precious body and blood to have as true food and true drink. Many others did not believe what Jesus said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life and they left him. Today non-Catholic Christians also reject the words of Jesus from John 6 and do not believe that Jesus would give us His flesh and blood as true food and true drink. Does this mean that they too are all without root and do not have a true faith? If not, then Judas was just as much a believer as any one else. One thing we do know for sure is that Judas was a traitor.

There are examples in scripture of people that were “believers” and then fell away in various ways. Ananias and Sapphira are described in the book of Acts and it is clear that they are part of the Christian community of believers. We know precisely from scripture what happened to them and why. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter says “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Ananias and Sapphira did an evil deed by letting Satan into their hearts and lying to the Holy Spirit. Consider the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts and what these two believers must have witnessed before they lied to the Holy Spirit. They turned away from God out of sinful desires and lied to the Holy Spirit. They were justified and then lost their justification.

The story about Simon the Magician is also helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again Simon is not described as a believer without root or any other such thing. We are told in Acts 8:13 “Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on of hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”[Acts 8:20-22] This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

We have another example in scripture that is outlined in Paul’s condemnation of Alexander and Hymenaeus. Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:19-20 that, “By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.” Please notice that Paul indicates that a number of people have made shipwreck of their faith and he names two of them. These folks are Christian believers that have wrecked their faith because they rejected conscience. It does not say that they lacked root or were not true believers. It says that they wrecked their faith by rejecting conscience. It is apparent that faith can be ruined.

 

[Pax]

What about Peter, didn’t the Lord Jesus pray for him that his faith would not fail. Does the Lord Jesus not pray for all who are His? Peter’s faith would have failed if the Lord Jesus had not prayed for him and so as the Lord Jesus kept Peter in the faith so He keeps all who are His.

*But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:32

Let’s look at scripture on this and take it from the top.

1 Tim 2:3-4
This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

John 2:2
and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 11:32
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Okay, it is clear that God desires that all men be saved, but we know that not everyone is saved. Likewise, we know that Jesus prays for all those that come to belief. I have already shown that some people that believed, i.e. Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, Simon the Magician, as well as Hymenaeus and Alexander, were believers that fell from grace. You have already stated that Jesus prays for everyone that believes and this is true. Nevertheless, some persevere, live by God’s grace, and some fail to do so. Remember this, God’s grace enables us but it does not force us.

Romans 6:23 says:

" For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

“The wages of sin is death.” That is what we do that brings condemnation.

“the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This is what God does.

Now let’s look at Peter.

The NT authors are constantly warning the early Christians to avoid living in the flesh because they will lose their salvation. If they could not lose their salvation then all of these warnings are pointless. The apostle Peter opens his second letter with the following greeting: “Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Now please note that the Christians he is writing to have an equal standing with him in faith. They are believers. They are as you like to put it “true believers.” In the second chapter of the epistle, Peter begins with a warning about false teachers and how some of them will come from within the ranks of the believers.

In 2 Peter 2:2-3 the apostle says, “And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words;” Notice what will happen to some of the believers that have an equal standing in faith with the apostle. Many will follow the licentiousness of the false teachers that come from within their own ranks. Subsequent to this, Peter outlines all of the sins that are committed by these people and what will happen to them.

Finally, the apostle says in 2 Peter 2:20-22, “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.” The opening line of these verses clearly shows that Peter is talking about people that have been saved for they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The problem is that these believers are once again overpowered by the evils of the world and as a result they are worse off than if they had never been saved. That means that they are no longer saved and will go to hell unless they repent. Again in the closing verse of the epistle Peter talks to those of equal standing in the faith and says, “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”[2 Peter 3:17] Stability means steadfastness in faith. Something they apparently have in equal standing with Peter, but something they can still lose.

Now the beautiful thing about these verses is that they are written by the same apostle that denied Jesus. Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him. Not only that, Jesus also predicted that Peter would turn back to him in repentance. This is made very clear in Luke 22:31-32 where Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” This indicates that Peter could have been sifted like wheat by Satan even though he was already a believer. If Peter could not have lost his salvation than the verses are pointless and there would be no necessity for Jesus to pray that Peter would “turn again.” Peter was justified and then denied Jesus, and then repented to turn again to Jesus.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Were the false teachers at one time true believers?

This is a great question and I respect the fact that you asked it. The answer to this requires speculation. The passage does not say whether or not the false teachers originally believed the truth and later fell into error or not. The passage only tells us that they left the Church as false teachers and that they would lead others astray. That is the purpose of the warning.

It is certainly possible that some of these teachers are not believers. They could simply be Gnostics from the “get go.” The problem with assuming that none of them were ever “believers” is that John says that “they went out from us…” It is clear that they were “not” sent and were not “of” the church because they wound up being false teachers, but the fact that they “went out from us” suggests that they were part of the Church body at some point.

The interesting thing about this is that this isn’t the only place in scripture that talks about the problem. In Acts 20:28-30 Paul says this:

“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; **and from among your own selves **will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.”

Please take note…these are “believers” that the Holy Spirit had made “overseers”[bishops] and even some of these will fall into error.

Non-Catholic Christians should be very circumspect in reading the passage because it speaks to those that leave the Church and teach different doctrines than the Church. This applies to the leaders of the Reformation. They did both. They left the Church and they introduced novel doctrines that differed from those of the Church and they drew many after them.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

I asked:

Does God require blood to forgive?

And you answered

Yes

Perhaps I should have phrased my question as “Does God ALWAYS require blood to forgive”.

In any case, the claim that God MUST be appeased with blood for all sin is the primary reason that God is often viewed by non-Christians as a “mean, bloodthirsty, unmerciful pyromaniac.”

However the Bible shows that God is merciful & just; that He does not always hinge his forgiveness on the reception of blood. He showed mercy at times on many people throughout scripture without the shedding of blood.

This ties into my second question:

Did God the Father punish Jesus?

To which you answered again;

Yes

Where does the Bible claim that God “punished” Jesus?

Romans 3 says that “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement…”, but atonement isn’t the same thing as punishment.

Atonement is to make amends, satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury.

Punishment is infliction of a penalty for fault, and the Bible shows that Jesus was completely innocent & without fault (the “unblemished lamb”.) God could not punish His Son for the guilt of another & remain just, anymore than I can beat my wife for the disobedience of my children & be “just”.

Jesus made atonement] for our sins by showing perfect love & obedience to the Father, despite even suffering & being put to death by men. Jesus did what Adam failed to do. He did what we cannot do, & He did it so perfectly that its merit far exceeded that which was needed to make amends for our sin.

One needs not be guilty to make atonement, but one does need to be guilty to receive punishment. Not to mention that just punishment must fit the crime, not exceed it.

Which brings me to my last question:

Is God a liar?

Here, you answered

No

And I agree 100%! Amen!

The difference between the Protestant & Catholic views on justification (imputation vs infusion) - is why I asked this question.

The claim that we are not & cannot be made righteous, but that it can only be “imputed” to us necessitates dishonesty on God’s part, or else it denies His omniscient nature.

This concept implicitly claims that God declares righteous those who, in His omniscience, knows full well are NOT righteous.

The Bible does use the word for “impute”, & when it does, it nearly always shows that the thing being imputed to a person actually exists. When it does not (for example, Judah reckoning that his daughter Shela was a prostitute) these imputations, or attributions, are shown to be due to mistakes, which are obviously impossible with God.

This is why Catholics believe the gift of “grace through faith” is infused in our souls, & we are actually made righteous.

Becoming perfectly righteousness is not complete in an instant, not even at our physical deaths, but is a process that God undertakes in us.

Nonetheless, while we may not be completely perfect, God’s gifts of grace & faith ARE perfectly righteous. Only if they are infused into our natures can God honestly credit (or “reckon”, or “impute”) that righteousness to us.

God Bless,



Chris

 

[emeraldisle]

Where does the Bible claim that God “punished” Jesus?

Surely He has borne our griefs qnd carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Now the beautiful thing about these verses is that they are written by the same apostle that denied Jesus. Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him. Not only that, Jesus also predicted that Peter would turn back to him in repentance. This is made very clear in Luke 22:31-32 where Jesus says, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” This indicates that Peter could have been sifted like wheat by Satan even though he was already a believer. If Peter could not have lost his salvation than the verses are pointless and there would be no necessity for Jesus to pray that Peter would “turn again.” Peter was justified and then denied Jesus, and then repented to turn again to Jesus.

Imo you are missing the point I’m making that the Lord Jesus did pray for Peter that His faith wouldn’t fail and it didn’t because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer.

Does the Lord Jesus pray for all who are His that their faith will not fail. Also can I point out that this doesn’t mean that they won’t fall into sin, remember Peter denied the Lord Jesus with curses and he was forgiven and restored.

.

 

[sandusky]

ChrisWRIT:

Perhaps I should have phrased my question as “Does God ALWAYS require blood to forgive”.

In any case, the claim that God MUST be appeased with blood for all sin is the primary reason that God is often viewed by non-Christians as a “mean, bloodthirsty, unmerciful pyromaniac.”

However the Bible shows that God is merciful & just; that He does not always hinge his forgiveness on the reception of blood. He showed mercy at times on many people throughout scripture without the shedding of blood.

Under the law, there are exceptions (cf (Lev 5:11); however, Heb 9:22 makes it clear that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (cf Lev 17:11). IMO, you don’t have a proper understanding.

As far as what non-Christians think regarding God, His Gospel is described by Paul in 1 Cor 1 as a “stumbling block,” and as “foolishness.” To me, the unbeliever’s reaction is not unexpected.

The unbeliever’s flawed understanding aside, God’s demand against sinners requires their death**Ezekiel 18:20

“The person who sins will die…and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death…**Somebody’s gonna die, either Christ in the sinner’s stead, or the sinner himself.

Therefore, Jesus died for sinners (Mk 10:45; 2 Cor 5:14-15), with “for” (Gk huper) meaning “on behalf of,” emphasizing the truth that Jesus took the place of sinners on the Cross. As their substitute, “the Just for the unjust,” He bore the punishment for their sins (1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:28). In Mt 20:38 “for” (Gk anti) means “instead of.”

ChrisWRIT:

Where does the Bible claim that God “punished” Jesus?

I’d begin with 2 Cor 5:21.

ChrisWRIT:

Atonement is to make amends, satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury.

Jesus made atonement] for our sins by showing perfect love & obedience to the Father, despite even suffering & being put to death by men. Jesus did what Adam failed to do. He did what we cannot do, & He did it so perfectly that its merit far exceeded that which was needed to make amends for our sin.

The perfect life that Christ lived did not “atone” for mans’ sins. What His perfect life did was qualify Him to be the perfect sacrifice—the lamb without spot or blemish; again, however, that didn’t atone for sin.

The “atonement” for sin was accomplished when God poured out His wrath against sin upon Christ on the Cross. Jesus sacrifice appeased God’s wrath (1 Jn 2:2; 4:10; cf Mt 3:7).

ChrisWRIT:

Punishment is infliction of a penalty for fault, and the Bible shows that Jesus was completely innocent & without fault (the “unblemished lamb”.) God could not punish His Son for the guilt of another & remain just, anymore than I can beat my wife for the disobedience of my children & be “just”.

You’re not seeing this properly, IMO.

H.E. Guillebaud answers that objection this way:"There is the condemned criminal, the guilty sinner. But beside him there is only One, who is Judge, Wronged Party, King (or Law), and Substitute. God was not administering someone else’s law, but His own, and the sin was not committed against someone else, but against Him; and above all He did not take someone else and accept him as substitute for the condemned sinner, but He came Himself, took upon Himself the nature of the guilty ones, and bore the penalty of His own law. The Substitute who died on Calvary expressly declared Himself to be the Judge of the world. Instead, therefore, of a judge punishing an innocent third party in place of the criminal, we have a Triune judge, One of whose Persons identified Himself with the nature of the criminal in all except his sin, then takes the sin itself upon Himself, and suffers the penalty of His own Law, which indeed has no existence independent of Him. Moreover, not only is there this identity between the Substitute and the Judge, but also in a mysterious sense between the Substitute and the criminal, when the latter, becomes willing to accept the identification."

H.E. Guillebaud, Why the Cross? (London: InterVarsity Fellowship, 1954), 147f.