Faith Alone

[sandusky]

**Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?

God is the one who justifies;**guanophore, according to v30, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies?

 

[guanophore]

Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?

God is the one who justifies;guanophore, according to v30, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies?

All that remain in Him will be glorified. Let us look at the context:

Rom 8:1-30
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit,** if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you**, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. 11** If the Spirit **of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

Sin separates people from God. At baptism, we are justified in his sight, and pure, just like Adam and Eve when they were created. It is then possible to follow not the Lord, but the world, the flesh, and the devel. If we sin mortally we separate ourselves from the saving grace of God. At such times, we are no longer “in Christ”. This is why, though the Apostle is addressing his letter to Christians, he uses the conditional language.

These “if’s” are reference to the fact that a Christian can be justified, then separate himself from the state of grace through sin.

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - 13 for **if you live **according to the flesh you will die, but **if by the Spirit **you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, **groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Our Adoption is not complete until that last day, when we no longer groan with eager longing, but will see Him face to face. We hope, because we do not see. We wait with patience (working out our salvation)

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. 27 And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Clearly it is possible to fall from our first love, and if this happens, not everything will work together for our good. On the contrary, if we choose to live according to the flesh, we will reap the reward, for the end therof is the way of death.**

 

[Pax]

guanophore,

This last post is an excellent response…thanks for taking care of this in my absence. Nice job.

 

[sandusky]

**Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?

God is the one who justifies;Pax, and guanophore,

**neither one of you is answering my very simple question: according to v30 above, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies? :ehh:

 

[Pax]

…
…
The wolves are always wolves

Paul is talking to leaders of the church who were first made Christians by the Holy Spirit, THEN made overseers. The ‘wolves’ had not arrived yet and would not until after Paul went home to be with the Lord. Since the wolves were not there, they cannot be part of the group of overseers Paul says WERE made such by the Holy Spirit. The “wolves” are always “wolves” (not believers), who then “come in among you” and even become leaders, “from among your own selves”. **The Holy Spirit did not indwell in them, **they are always wolves ****who can speak the Christian language even assenting to water baptism that did not make them Christians. That wolves can become leaders in the church should not be a shock. The Holy Spirit does not make wolves overseers in the Church.

Excuse me but this is not what the scripture clearly says. The passage says that some of the wolves will come from “your own group.” This is a reference to those Paul is addressing and he has already said that they were made overseers by the Holy Spirit. Please do not forget that Judas was “chosen” by Jesus himself. You are using twisted logic and statements not contained in the passage in an attempt to dodge this scriptural bullet.

Scripture does not say that these people never had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You simply made that up because of your doctrinal position which is erroneous. Scripture frequently uses the word “abide” in reference to our position in Christ. The word “abide” means “to remain.” If we do not abide/remain in Christ we are lost and many that no longer “abide/remain” in Christ can certainly become wolves among the flock.

I have read about a former Church of Christ minister who has become an atheist. He grew up in a Christian home and took whole hearted ownership of his Christian faith at age 18. After seminary he became an ordained minister and served as such for 9 years. This man said this about his belief:

“I was converted…I was a party-goer, by and large, but I knew that someday, I would have to give up my selfish life and become a part of what I was taught God told me to do – to be baptized and live as a Christian. I remember how it felt to start looking for answers in the bible and pray like I never had before. I was a changed man at my conversion one cold February morning in 1994. What I felt Christ did for me was all too apparent in my mind. I decided to live for him since he gave so much for me, and I was so thankful that I had escaped the eternal flames of Hell that awaited me for my former lifestyle’s conduct! From then on, my life would change in ways I never imagined… I kept trying to understand why the faith of most people wasn’t as urgent a thing to them as my faith was to me. This led me to believe even more so that I was truly converted and most of those around me were not.”

This man had a deep faith yet he later became an atheist. If you ask him about the faith he now disavows, he will tell you that he “believed it all hook, line, and sinker.” Please do not continue to tell everyone that a person cannot be a believer and apostasize. This goes against scripture and against real life experience.

 

[Pax]

Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?

God is the one who justifies;Pax, and guanophore,

neither one of you is answering my very simple question: according to v30 above, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies? :ehh:

You are attempting to make it appear that the statement that all those that are justified “are also glorified” is an absolute when the rest of the chapter clearly shows that it is not an absolute. The provisional “if” statements quoted in quanophore’s post along with all of the other conditional statements in the book of Romans, as well as in Paul’s other letters, deny your position that the statement is an absolute.

 

[sandusky]

You are attempting to make it appear that the statement that all those that are justified “are also glorified” is an absolute when the rest of the chapter clearly shows that it is not an absolute. The provisional “if” statements quoted in quanophore’s post along with all of the other conditional statements in the book of Romans, as well as in Paul’s other letters, deny your position that the statement is an absolute.

What you are doing Pax, is this:

Pax:

You have added interpretive statements by way of superimposing your doctrine on the passages….to support your doctrines….You simply made that up because of your doctrinal position which is erroneous.

 

[emeraldisle]

I get your point, but I do not agree with it for the reasons and understandings that I presented. I agree that Peter denied the Lord and was forgiven and restored. I pointed that out myself. It is important to remember that I also pointed out others that Jesus prayed for that fell away. Your logic would demand that they also would have followed suit with Peter and would have been forgiven and restored. Unfortunately, not everyone “repents.”

Who else did the Lord Jesus pray for that their faith wouldn’t fail?

Remember the Lord Jesus prayed a specific prayer for Peter that his faith wouldn’t fail and so it didn’t because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer and not because of Peter, he totally failed the Lord Jesus.

BTW no Christian is any better than Peter and it is only by the prayer of the Lord Jesus that any Christian can remain in the faith.

.

 

[Pax]

Who else did the Lord Jesus pray for that their faith wouldn’t fail?

Remember the Lord Jesus prayed a specific prayer for Peter that his faith wouldn’t fail and so it didn’t because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer and not because of Peter, he totally failed the Lord Jesus.

BTW no Christian is any better than Peter and it is only by the prayer of the Lord Jesus that any Christian can remain in the faith.

If you are saying that Peter failed but “returned” by way of grace, and that Peter could do nothing without grace, then we agree with one another. Everything is by grace. Our justification, our repentance, and our works are all by grace. All of them are necessary for salvation and all are by way of God’s grace.

 

[Pax]

What you are doing Pax, is this:

Hardly. Please show me where it says that everyone that is justified “will” without exception be brought to glory. The past tense references won’t get it.

Now after we wade through that, I will provide the tons of scripture that show that we can lose our salvation. If I can show the provisional terminology that runs through scripture, and I can quote the scriptures that show that believers can fall into condemnation, then it is quite clear that your accusation against me is not true.

 

[guanophore]

Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect?

God is the one who justifies;Pax, and guanophore,

neither one of you is answering my very simple question: according to v30 above, what does God also do to each and every person He justifies? :ehh:

I did answer your question, sandusky, you just did not agree with my answer. I said that Paul here is talking about saints who have already completed the race. Those who have been perfected in their faith are glorified, but that does not happen on this earth. So long as a person remains on earth, the possibility exists that one will spurn the Son of God, and if this happens, there remains no sacrifice for sins.

I think the phrase “lose you salvation” is not accurate or helpful in such a discussion. Persons of Apostolic faiths understand that salvation begins at justification, is worked our over our lifetime, and is brought to completion at the time of death. Therefore, it is not yet “attained” until the last day. We are on the path of salvation and if we do not detour, we will arrive to be glorified, by God’s grace, but we don’t lose something that we have not yet attained. We wait for it with patience.

 

[Vincent]

Romans 8:30-33

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

As Jimmy Akin would explain it,

. . . the kind of predestination being referred to in this passage is predestination to glory. Thus it is absolutely true that all those who are predestined to glory end up being called, justified, and glorified.

But that doesn’t mean “all” who are called and justified are chosen for glory, for “Many are called, but few are chosen.”​

 

[emeraldisle]

If you are saying that Peter failed but “returned” by way of grace, and that Peter could do nothing without grace, then we agree with one another. Everything is by grace. Our justification, our repentance, and our works are all by grace. All of them are necessary for salvation and all are by way of God’s grace.

I’m clearly saying that Peters faith didn’t fail because the Lord Jesus prayed that it wouldn’t. I’m saying that Peters faith was totally and completely dependent upon the Lord Jesus. This truth applies to all Christians who like Peter have their faith in Christ Jesus and He keeps them all in their faith, which is in Christ alone and not in mans works!

.

 

[guanophore]

I’m clearly saying that Peters faith didn’t fail because the Lord Jesus prayed that it wouldn’t. I’m saying that Peters faith was totally and completely dependent upon the Lord Jesus. This truth applies to all Christians who like Peter have their faith in Christ Jesus and He keeps them all in their faith, which is in Christ alone and not in mans works!

Yes, but there is that one most important work of man that must be done in order for this to succeed. " Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:27-30

Faith is under the control of the person. The individual has to place that faith, and keep placing it, even when it grows weary. This is man’s part.

Also, it is instructive that Satan desired to sift all the Apostles. Peter is the only one that Jesus prayed for specifically, that he would not fail. Therefore, all who wish to be upheld in faith better quickly get joined in with the prayer for Peter. This is one of the reasons that unity with Peter and his successor is so critical.

 

[Pax]

I’m clearly saying that Peters faith didn’t fail because the Lord Jesus prayed that it wouldn’t. I’m saying that Peters faith was totally and completely dependent upon the Lord Jesus. This truth applies to all Christians who like Peter have their faith in Christ Jesus and He keeps them all in their faith, which is in Christ alone and not in mans works!

.

Did you agree with me or disagree with me? If you disagree with me then it is incumbent upon you to show how it is that some who have believed, have also lost their state of justification and went onto the road to perdition.

 

[Pax]

BTW no Christian is any better than Peter and it is only by the prayer of the Lord Jesus that any Christian can remain in the faith.

It is also the free choice of Christians to do as Peter says “to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed onto them.”[2 Peter 2:21]

God’s grace enables us but does not force us. I can provide you with a plethora of scripture passages that talk about the enabling power of God’s grace. Moreover, the nature of grace is that of a “gift.” A gift is freely accepted, rejected, placed on a shelf, used, or unused. A gift can even be accepted and then thrown back or returned to the giver. We are free to turn from God, otherwise we are no longer human beings with free will and made in the image and likeness of God. Instead, we would be mere automotons.

I agree that everything is by God’s grace…I simply do not agree that everyone that is justified will stay that way. Scripture and the empirical evidence of those that fall away simply denies that position.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

By sandusky
You’re misunderstanding, Chris. I was agreeing with you that a blood sacrifice for a sin offering was waived under the law if one was poor and couldn’t afford it (Lev 5:11).

I cited Lev 17:11 which states that blood is given to the people for atonement; however, that OT blood sacrifice for sin saved no one (Heb 10:4), but pointed to Christ.

Thanks for your clarification; I agree.

By sandusky
Yes, God did forebear His punishment for sin, but that means neither indifference to, nor remission of sin; nevertheless, with Christ, God publicly displayed His wrath toward sinners, when He poured out His wrath on Christ upon the Cross (Rom 3:25ff); that is the wisdom, and the power of God perceived by the unbeliever as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18ff).

This is where I disagree – On the assertion that God “punished” Christ.

What Bible translation are you using that makes the claim the God “poured out His wrath on Christ upon the Cross”? Romans 3:25 doesn’t say that, or even imply it – at least not in any version I can find.

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

By sandusky
*ISTM that the gist of what you are saying is that God was so pleased with Christ’s perfectly obedient life that He rewarded Christ with crucifixion; is that correct?

Why did God crucify Jesus?*

No, I am saying that God did not crucify Christ, nor does the Bible. Christ suffered & died at the hands of men.

Christ was perfectly innocent, which pleased the Father, & made it possible for Him to be a perfect sacrifice of propitiation & atonement.

By sandusky
The verses I cited state that Christ was a propitiation for sin; what did Christ, as propitiator, propitiate?

Not only do I agree with the verses you cited, I expanded on them. Yes, Christ was the propitiation for our sin.

But what is propitiation? You seem to be claiming that it is punishment, but that doesn’t square with either the Bible or the dictionary. The Bible nowhere claims that “propitiation” is accomplished only by punishment, or that God punished Christ. Neither does the dictionary:

Propitiate:
1) to make favorably inclined; appease; conciliate.
2) To regain the favor or goodwill of; to appease.

Punishment may attain propitiation, but it is not the only method by which one may be appeased.

The issue is not whether Christ was a propitiation for sin (which He was), or whether He redeemed us by His blood (which He did), but HOW was Christ’s sacrificial atonement actually accomplished? Even to this day, it continues to be a mystery.

In any case, this does not invalidate the point that God the Father did not punish Jesus on the cross.

This claim is an unbiblical one which necessitates that God is either unjust or a liar – neither of which is true.

The claim is unbiblical, because the Bible nowhere says that God crucified Christ. Christ’s death on the cross was a (perfect) sacrifice performed by men who didn’t even realize what they were doing, despite Ciaphas’ prophecy in John 11:45-52, as evidenced by Christ words: “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34)

If the claim were true, it would make God unjust, because one who is innocent, as Christ was, cannot justly be punished.

If the charge of “unjust” is avoided by claiming that God judged Christ guilty when He knew otherwise, then god would be a liar, since Christ was not guilty. (Which additionally would also violate Scriptural prophecy that Christ would be a perfect offering, an “unblemished lamb”, etc.)

Regards,

Chris

 

[sandusky]

Thanks for your clarification; I agree.

This is where I disagree – On the assertion that God “punished” Christ.

What Bible translation are you using that makes the claim the God “poured out His wrath on Christ upon the Cross”? Romans 3:25 doesn’t say that, or even imply it – at least not in any version I can find.

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

No, I am saying that God did not crucify Christ, nor does the Bible. Christ suffered & died at the hands of men.

Christ was perfectly innocent, which pleased the Father, & made it possible for Him to be a perfect sacrifice of propitiation & atonement.

Not only do I agree with the verses you cited, I expanded on them. Yes, Christ was the propitiation for our sin.

But what is propitiation? You seem to be claiming that it is punishment, but that doesn’t square with either the Bible or the dictionary. The Bible nowhere claims that “propitiation” is accomplished only by punishment, or that God punished Christ. Neither does the dictionary:

Propitiate:
1) to make favorably inclined; appease; conciliate.
2) To regain the favor or goodwill of; to appease.

Punishment may attain propitiation, but it is not the only method by which one may be appeased.

The issue is not whether Christ was a propitiation for sin (which He was), or whether He redeemed us by His blood (which He did), but HOW was Christ’s sacrificial atonement actually accomplished? Even to this day, it continues to be a mystery.

In any case, this does not invalidate the point that God the Father did not punish Jesus on the cross.

This claim is an unbiblical one which necessitates that God is either unjust or a liar – neither of which is true.

The claim is unbiblical, because the Bible nowhere says that God crucified Christ. Christ’s death on the cross was a (perfect) sacrifice performed by men who didn’t even realize what they were doing, despite Ciaphas’ prophecy in John 11:45-52, as evidenced by Christ words: “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34)

If the claim were true, it would make God unjust, because one who is innocent, as Christ was, cannot justly be punished.

If the charge of “unjust” is avoided by claiming that God judged Christ guilty when He knew otherwise, then god would be a liar, since Christ was not guilty. (Which additionally would also violate Scriptural prophecy that Christ would be a perfect offering, an “unblemished lamb”, etc.)

Regards,

Chris

Thank you, Chris, for the explanation of your understanding of the cross. :tiphat:

 

[emeraldisle]

This is one of the reasons that unity with Peter and his successor is so critical.

This is a brilliant example of the mindset of a Catholic. Always seeking to point someone to a mere man instead of Christ.

I’m looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of my faith, see Heb 12:2

.

 

[emeraldisle]

It is also the free choice of Christians to do as Peter says “to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed onto them.”[2 Peter 2:21]

God’s grace enables us but does not force us. I can provide you with a plethora of scripture passages that talk about the enabling power of God’s grace. Moreover, the nature of grace is that of a “gift.” A gift is freely accepted, rejected, placed on a shelf, used, or unused. A gift can even be accepted and then thrown back or returned to the giver. We are free to turn from God, otherwise we are no longer human beings with free will and made in the image and likeness of God. Instead, we would be mere automotons.

I agree that everything is by God’s grace…I simply do not agree that everyone that is justified will stay that way. Scripture and the empirical evidence of those that fall away simply denies that position.

Do we agree that the Lord Jesus kept Peter in the faith by His prayer?

Do we agree that the Lord Jesus is able to keep all who are His in the faith just as He keep Peter in the faith?

.