Faith Alone

[guanophore]

Did Jesus say to Peter I have prayed that your faith would not fail but I’m really depending upon you to keep your faith?

.

Nope. Such thinking is an outcome of Calvanistic theology.

Luke 22:32-34
I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

He said “when you have turned again”. This is something that it is Peter’s responsibility to do. He will not be able to do it without the Grace of God, but it is his work to do. This is the work that Jesus expects from all of us.

John 6:27-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “**This is the work **of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

That’s a straw man.

It is not. Human beings have a responsibility to receive the Word of God. They have choices about how they do so. Some mock, some scoff, some believe:

“…they received the word with all eagerness…” Acts 17:11

Faith is a quality of persons, and it is the choice of the individual where to place his faith, in himself, or in Christ (or a myriad of other places). In order for grace to be effective, a person much choose to place their faith in Christ:

Heb 4:2
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers."

Those that choose not to meet the message with faith will not be benefitted by it.

IMHO, that’s RC teaching.

Isn’t it interesting that your perception of RC teaching is not consitent with what that teaching really is?

 

[FCEGM]

And this, I would say, is a good example of a Protestant mindset. Protesting causes divisions, divisions in the body, soul, and spirit. The division represented here is a common one, that a Catholic points to anyone nor anything “instead of Christ”. Such thinking denies the communion of the saints, an the work of the HS who unties us into one Body. Jesus grafted Peter into his own rockiness, and changed his name to reflect this fact. The Rock that was Christ has now subsumed Peter, who has also taken on that Rocklike character that emanates from divinely revealed Truth. God the Father revealed this Truth to Peter, and Christ recognized it for what it was.

When we join ourselves to those who are united to Christ, we also become united to Him. It is not “instead” but “both/and”. Peter trusts in Christ for his life, so do all who are joined with Peter.

" Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith."
Heb 13:7

Most of these people were martyred, so when we are called to imitate their faith, it is unto death for Christ. Does scripture tell us we should not imitate those who have gone on before us in the faith, or that doing so is "instead of " following Christ?

“…but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.” 2 Thess 3:9

Does the Apostle expect that believers should imitate him INSTEAD of Christ! ! ???

No, but he gives us an example to follow:

“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

Therefore, it is clear that this “jesus and me, nobody else” is not biblical.

Excellent, excellent points!! :tiphat:

The unbiblical formula of “faith alone” is a making of one right with God without God coming close to the person by union: An externalism and distance which reflect the externalism of Law (mental activity separated from the heart) rather than Charity.

Those who embrace this error of the “Reformer’s” teaching don’t understand the transformation at the deeper level of Nature and Soul, but limit it to the moral, conscious level of activity. But IF because of Original Sin we are conceived without the grace of the Indwelling Trinity in our soul, our soul is dark and empty of the Trinitarian Presence, which is a Divine Light elevating the soul to the Divine level. That happens at Baptism. That’s the transformation we are talking about, not the working it out in moral activity.

The Grace of Baptism thus justifies by reason of God’s presence, Who makes holy what He comes in contact with; sanctification is the extending of this radical holiness to all areas of life and activity. Salvation depends on not losing the fundamental holiness, justification of the soul, by neglect or contrary activity of the believer. Thus justification is by necessity a Grace of Union of God within the soul, from which center God AND the believer work together as First Cause to secondary simultaneously, thus meriting a reward of love from the conjoint activity of covenantal love. We are speaking here of the unconscious level of the soul, or life principle, by which we exist as a person from the moment of our conception onward.

Luther’s novelty of “faith alone” (his self-made solution to his personal despair and guilt) is unknown for 1500 years, and is not the teaching of the New Testament. It is his desperate attempt at protecting himself from Divine retribution. It is thoroughly motivated by fear. It completely eclipses Charity, which Paul teaches is the greatest gift that will endure into eternity, which faith does not. Luther’s attempt makes sanctification an added extra which should be there but doesn’t really matter for getting to heaven. No surprise that Luther justified (pun intended) practically every sin at one time or another depending on who he was trying to please, and that he displayed none of the heroic mastery of virtue over sin and self which all the Catholic saints who were his contemporaries did. He died in abhorrent fear of demons, desperately repeating his faith in Christ (no peace at all!) after destroying the unity of the Church. Disunity would have come by someone else, it seems likely, but woe by whom it actually came!

 

[sandusky]

Excellent, excellent points!! :tiphat:

The unbiblical formula of “faith alone” is a making of one right with God without God coming close to the person by union: An externalism and distance which reflect the externalism of Law (mental activity separated from the heart) rather than Charity.

Those who embrace this error of the “Reformer’s” teaching don’t understand the transformation at the deeper level of Nature and Soul, but limit it to the moral, conscious level of activity. But IF because of Original Sin we are conceived without the grace of the Indwelling Trinity in our soul, our soul is dark and empty of the Trinitarian Presence, which is a Divine Light elevating the soul to the Divine level. That happens at Baptism. That’s the transformation we are talking about, not the working it out in moral activity.

The Grace of Baptism thus justifies by reason of God’s presence, Who makes holy what He comes in contact with; sanctification is the extending of this radical holiness to all areas of life and activity. Salvation depends on not losing the fundamental holiness, justification of the soul, by neglect or contrary activity of the believer. Thus justification is by necessity a Grace of Union of God within the soul, from which center God AND the believer work together as First Cause to secondary simultaneously, thus meriting a reward of love from the conjoint activity of covenantal love. We are speaking here of the unconscious level of the soul, or life principle, by which we exist as a person from the moment of our conception onward.

Luther’s novelty of “faith alone” (his self-made solution to his personal despair and guilt) is unknown for 1500 years, and is not the teaching of the New Testament. It is his desperate attempt at protecting himself from Divine retribution. It is thoroughly motivated by fear. It completely eclipses Charity, which Paul teaches is the greatest gift that will endure into eternity, which faith does not. Luther’s attempt makes sanctification an added extra which should be there but doesn’t really matter for getting to heaven. No surprise that Luther justified (pun intended) practically every sin at one time or another depending on who he was trying to please, and that he displayed none of the heroic mastery of virtue over sin and self which all the Catholic saints who were his contemporaries did. He died in abhorrent fear of demons, desperately repeating his faith in Christ (no peace at all!) after destroying the unity of the Church. Disunity would have come by someone else, it seems likely, but woe by whom it actually came!

This is turning into the Thread of the Straw Men.

 

[emeraldisle]

Nope. Such thinking is an outcome of Calvanistic theology.

Luke 22:32-34
I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

He said “when you have turned again”. This is something that it is Peter’s responsibility to do. He will not be able to do it without the Grace of God, but it is his work to do. This is the work that Jesus expects from all of us.

Yes Peter sinned, yes he denied Christ just as the Lord Jesus said he would but did he cease to be in Christ, no his “position” in Christ was secure because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer that his faith would not fail.

Peter sinned against Christ when he denied Him but he wasn’t cut off from Christ. Now after Peter sinned he was convicted of his sin by God and by Gods grace he repented and was restored.

Peter was in Christ because Christ chose him and Peter remained in Christ because Christ kept him.

.

 

[Pax]

Yes Peter sinned, yes he denied Christ just as the Lord Jesus said he would but did he cease to be in Christ, no his “position” in Christ was secure because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer that his faith would not fail.

Peter sinned against Christ when he denied Him but he wasn’t cut off from Christ. Now after Peter sinned he was convicted of his sin by God and by Gods grace he repented and was restored.

Peter was in Christ because Christ chose him and Peter remained in Christ because Christ kept him.

.

And what about all the others that did not repent, but for whom Jesus clearly prayed? They were also believers, but they made ship wreck of their faith.

 

[sandusky]

And what about all the others that did not repent, but for whom Jesus clearly prayed? They were also believers, but they made ship wreck of their faith.

Name the others for whom Jesus “clearly prayed,” and what He “clearly prayed” for regarding those others.

 

[guanophore]

Yes Peter sinned, yes he denied Christ just as the Lord Jesus said he would but did he cease to be in Christ, no his “position” in Christ was secure because of the Lord Jesus’ prayer that his faith would not fail.

Peter sinned against Christ when he denied Him but he wasn’t cut off from Christ. Now after Peter sinned he was convicted of his sin by God and by Gods grace he repented and was restored.

Peter was in Christ because Christ chose him and Peter remained in Christ because Christ kept him.

.

Catholics (as well as evangelicals, I believe) know that sin separates us from God. Judas did the same thing, but Judas did not turn again to Christ, to be forgiven and restored.

And what about all the others that did not repent, but for whom Jesus clearly prayed? They were also believers, but they made ship wreck of their faith.

How can a person make a shipwreck of their faith, if their faith was not floating and workable in the first place? You can’t have a shipwreck until the ship is at sea. If it never sets out, or it never leaves the dock, the loss of it would not be called a shipwreck.

 

[Pax]

Name the others for whom Jesus “clearly prayed,” and what He “clearly prayed” for regarding those others.

Jesus prayed for every Christian. He prayed for Judas, Simon the Magician, Alexander and Hymeneus, Ananias and Sapphira and others. These people were believers and they lost their salvation. Likewise, what about all of those that apostacize? Scripture says they were believers, therefore, we know Jesus specifically prayed for them.

 

[sandusky]

Jesus prayed for every Christian. He prayed for Judas, Simon the Magician, Alexander and Hymeneus, Ananias and Sapphira and others. These people were believers and they lost their salvation. Likewise, what about all of those that apostacize? Scripture says they were believers, therefore, we know Jesus specifically prayed for them.

One cannot lose salvation/justification.

God glorifies each one He justifies (Rom 8:30).

(Please cite the passages that state that those mentioned above were believers who lost their salvation.)

 

[Pax]

One cannot lose salvation/justification.

God glorifies each one He justifies (Rom 8:30).

(Please cite the passages that state that those mentioned above were believers who lost their salvation.)

Just go back and read all of my prior posts on this thread concerning the individuals I named. Scripture makes it clear that they “believed.” Scripture also makes it clear that they fell from Christ.

I will add another example of what I am talking about, I will cite the scriptural passage for this one as well. This is a non-specific example of falling away…in other words no one is named as in the other examples, but it is quite clear that believers fall away and lose their salvation in this citation.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

You cannot depart from the faith unless you were already a believer. If you depart from the faith and follow after deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons you will not be saved. You will lose that which you had gained by what you used to believe.

 

[sandusky]

You cannot depart from the faith unless you were already a believer. If you depart from the faith and follow after deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons you will not be saved. You will lose that which you had gained by what you used to believe.

Many will believe, Pax (Lk 8:11ff), but the question is, “is that ‘belief’ a belief that is justified by God?”

Remember, all whom God justifies, He also glorifies. That being true, the misunderstanding must be yours with respect to whom the statements of 1 Tim 4, and other statements and warnings apply.

Remember, those He justifies, He also glorifies.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Where does it say that only the elect will be only ones given eternal life.

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

Where does it say that only the elect will be only ones given eternal life.

You’re missing the point of the discussion. The point of the discussion is that God glorifies the ones He justifies.

The significance is that, according to the RCC, justification is conferred at baptism; therefore, every person who has been baptized, is justified, and therefore, will be glorified, according to Rom 8:30.

(From the CCC:

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life; )

 

[JoeyWarren]

Where does it say that only the elect will be only ones given eternal life.

Chapter and Verse please, and please note, using your own words that it must be explicit.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

The significance is that, according to the RCC, justification is conferred at baptism; therefore, every person who has been baptized, is justified, and therefore, will be glorified, according to Rom 8:30.

(From the CCC:1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life; )

Hi sandusky,

First, you might want to backup a few chapters there before assuming a single paragraph tells you the whole story.

Just a few paragraphs earlier, 1989 notes that
“The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”

Chapter 1995 notes that justification entails the sanctification of the whole person.

You said earlier that:

Remember, all whom God justifies, He also glorifies.

This paraphrase of Romans 8:30 implies a false conclusion due to missing the root of the verse.

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

The entire verse hinges on WHO is predestined, & what they’re predestined for. Obviously, it is talking about those who are predestined for glory, as God all who will be glorified will also be both called & justified.

However, it doesn’t say that all who God calls & justifies will also be glorified.

Not all who are predestined to grace are also predestined to glory.

“Many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matt. 22:14

Regards,

Chris

 

[guanophore]

One cannot lose salvation/justification.

God glorifies each one He justifies (Rom 8:30).

(Please cite the passages that state that those mentioned above were believers who lost their salvation.)

I think it is more accurate to say that one has not yet attained salvation, or been perfected in faith. When scripture speaks of those who have been glorified, these are the souls of the just who have gone on before us in the faith. The just men made holy are glorified after this life. I will not deny that there may be some in this life who refrain from sin, but I think it is a very small number. Most of us battle with sin all our lives, and therefore, risk not acquiring our inheritance.

“Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.” Phil 3:12-16

According to Paul, the OSAS theology is not mature minded, however God will reveal that to you.

"In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. " Eph 1:13-14

We do not come into our inheritance in this life, but the next. We are declared righteous (justified) in Christ, but we are not yet perfected (made into the holy state we are declared).

You’re missing the point of the discussion. The point of the discussion is that God glorifies the ones He justifies.

The significance is that, according to the RCC, justification is conferred at baptism; therefore, every person who has been baptized, is justified, and therefore, will be glorified, according to Rom 8:30.

(From the CCC:

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life; )

You are interpreting the passage in Rom 8 through your Calvanistic lenses. On the contrary, the Apostles teach us that this passage applies to those who have passed on before us in faith. In this life, we are undergoing a process of sanctification, during which it is possible to fall away from grace.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

I think it is more accurate to say that one has not yet attained salvation, or been perfected in faith.

I know; you seem to be in that category of not yet having salvation.

 

[sandusky]

ChrisWRIT:

This paraphrase of Romans 8:30 implies a false conclusion due to missing the root of the verse.

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

The entire verse hinges on WHO is predestined, & what they’re predestined for. Obviously, it is talking about those who are predestined for glory, as God all who will be glorified will also be both called & justified.

Read the passage, Chris; it’s very specific that those He foreknows He predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies—all of those, without fail.

ChrisWRIT:

However, it doesn’t say that all who God calls & justifies will also be glorified.

It certainly does, Chris; read it again, more carefully, while trying to put out of your mind CC teaching of predestined to grace only.

Point out where it’s stated that God rescinds justification from those He justifies?

ChrisWRIT:

Not all who are predestined to grace are also predestined to glory.

“Many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matt. 22:14

In RC predestination, those “predestined to grace,” are destined to condemnation as the number of those predestined to glory is fixed, correct?

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

Where does it say that only the elect will be only ones given eternal life.

I’ve not mentioned the elect, but stated simply that “God glorifies all of those that He justifies." Do you care to address that? :ehh:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I know; you seem to be in that category of not yet having salvation.

At least his beliefs are the same as those of the apostles and the Church found by Christ and not personal understanding veiled in relativism that go against Scripture and the word of Christ.