Faith Alone

[Pax]

I’ve not mentioned the elect, but stated simply that “God glorifies all of those that He justifies." Do you care to address that? :ehh:

I asked you many posts ago to demonstrate by scripture that the passage you quoted means without exception that everyone that is justified is also glorified. The verse you quoted does not address that issue and there are no other passages in scripture that clarify that passage in scripture to suggest that it means what you believe it to mean.

You need to also address all of the verses presented to you thus far that contradict your views. You cannot simply say that these people were not justified. One can say that they “believed” which means that they were justified by faith.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I’ve not mentioned the elect, but stated simply that “God glorifies all of those that He justifies." Do you care to address that? :ehh:

well well I read a context that you do not.

These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). God’s redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Romans 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Romans 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian’s salvation.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ( Not all christians are called to specific purposes (Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers) the majority of us are be nothing but mere sheep. That means you and me Sandusky)

29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn (those chosen for specific purposes ) among many brethren (believers).

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

I asked you many posts ago to demonstrate by scripture that the passage you quoted means without exception that everyone that is justified is also glorified.

Taking into account the entire context of Scripture, what else could it mean, Pax?

Pax:

The verse you quoted does not address that issue and there are no other passages in scripture that clarify that passage in scripture to suggest that it means what you believe it to mean.

What else could it mean?

Pax:

You need to also address all of the verses presented to you thus far that contradict your views. You cannot simply say that these people were not justified. One can say that they “believed” which means that they were justified by faith.

Obviously not Pax; if, as the parable of the sower and the seed demonstrates, one can believe, and leave the faith, that one could not have been justified by God, who is the only one who justifies (Rom 8:33), and each of those He justifies, He also glorifies.

That is why Paul says that no condemnation exists for the one who is Christ’s (Rom 8:1); that is because it is God’s justification that puts one in Christ (1 Cor 1:30; cf Rom 8:30ff); and, that is why Paul says that, the one justified by faith has peace with God through Christ—because God glorifies each one that He justifies….

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Read the passage, Chris; it’s very specific that those He foreknows He predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies—all of those, without fail.

It certainly does, Chris; read it again, more carefully, while trying to put out of your mind CC teaching of predestined to grace only.

You are mistaken in assuming that I am simply attempting to justify a teaching from the Church. This is incorrect, as both predestination to grace & to glory are taught by the Bible.

Again, the key word in Rom. 8:30 is “predestined”. Who are the people that Paul is talking about “who are predestined”? Those who will be glorified.

Yes, all those who will be glorified will also be justified & called.

But it does not say that all those who are called & justified will remain so, & finally be glorified.

Point out where it’s stated that God rescinds justification from those He justifies?

I don’t claim that God “rescinds” anything. However, we can leave the state of grace through our own faults. We must then repent & confess our sins to receive forgiveness, that we may return to a state of grace & justification.

In RC predestination, those “predestined to grace,” are destined to condemnation as the number of those predestined to glory is fixed, correct?

No.

I would tend to agree with the assertion that the number of those predestined to glory is “fixed” due to God’s perfect foreknowledge.

However, it sounds like you are mistakenly assuming that if predestination to grace & predestination to glory are two different things, they must be mutually exclusive.

I can see how this would lead someone to deny their difference, but it is an incorrect conclusion.

One cannot be predestined to glory without also being predestined to grace.

On the other hand, one can be predestined to grace but not necessarily to glory.

We may be called, & enter a state of grace, becoming true believers in Christ, but then leave.

This all comes back to what seems to be your core issue - a view of justification as a one-time, permanent event - that to be “justified” means that we are forgiven one time, for every sin we have committed or will ever commit in the future.

The Catholic Church disagrees with this view, as does the Bible.

The loss of justification & the possibility of its restoration is taught in several places of the Bible. For example in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) the son who leaves, is described as first “dead”, & “alive” again when he has humbled himself and come back.

Additionally, Scripture shows that it is a real possibility for a true Christian to commit mortal sin as indicated in numerous places, such as John 15:2, 6, 10, & Rom. 11:17-24.

If you would like to understand Catholic teaching on justification, I would refer you to this article:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.htm

Chris

 

[sandusky]

JoeyWarren:

well well I read a context that you do not.

These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). God’s redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Romans 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Romans 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian’s salvation.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ( Not all christians are called to specific purposes (Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers) the majority of us are be nothing but mere sheep. That means you and me Sandusky)

29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn (those chosen for specific purposes ) among many brethren (believers).

30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

So the passage is not about salvation at all, but only vocation; is that correct?

 

[guanophore]

I know; you seem to be in that category of not yet having salvation.

Not exactly, since salvation has taken place at the moment of baptism, and is already working itself out. We have not been perfected in our faith.

Read the passage, Chris; it’s very specific that those He foreknows He predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies—all of those, without fail.

Yes, Chris, and while you are at it, be sure to note here how sandusky has changed what is written in the inerrant Word of God from past tense into present tense.

That way, it can be applied to people who have not yet been glorified in the present.

Point out where it’s stated that God rescinds justification from those He justifies?

I don’t think that is the case. Scripture is clear in many passages that the mark is permanent, and that, once a person apostasizes, the last state is WORSE than the first.

In RC predestination, those “predestined to grace,” are destined to condemnation as the number of those predestined to glory is fixed, correct?

I never heard of such a thing! Where in the Catechism did you find that?

 

[guanophore]

I’ve not mentioned the elect, but stated simply that “God glorifies all of those that He justifies." Do you care to address that? :ehh:

That is from I Sand. 6:3, right?

There is an extent to which justification has not yet been completed, either:

Rom 2:12-13
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

We might be justified, and we might inherit eternal life.

“…he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that** we might be justified** by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:5-8

If we stand firm, and hold fast. If not, we may fall from grace, and be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

“Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” Heb 3:12-13

How do you dispense with passages like this one, that leem to indicate that people can, through unbelief, fall away from the faith?

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Not exactly, since salvation has taken place at the moment of baptism, and is already working itself out. We have not been perfected in our faith.

Make up your mind; ISTM that whatever point you’re trying to make at the moment determines your salvation; ISTM that at this point in time, you are saved; earlier, you weren’t.

guanophore:

I don’t think that is the case. Scripture is clear in many passages that the mark is permanent, and that, once a person apostasizes, the last state is WORSE than the first.

Where does that passage state that God rescinds His justification; that’s the question; you’re assuming a meaning based upon your church’s teaching, or what “seems to be”—prove that God rescinds His justification.

guanophore:

I never heard of such a thing! Where in the Catechism did you find that?

Who said I found it in the catechism?

guanophore:

We might be justified, and we might inherit eternal life.

I’m not talking about you, who doesn’t know his eternal disposition from one moment to the next; what scripture says is that those God justifies, He also glorifies.

 

[sandusky]

ChrisWRIT:

You are mistaken in assuming that I am simply attempting to justify a teaching from the Church. This is incorrect, as both predestination to grace & to glory are taught by the Bible.

Where?

ChrisWRIT:

Again, the key word in Rom. 8:30 is “predestined”. Who are the people that Paul is talking about “who are predestined”? Those who will be glorified.

Yes, all those who will be glorified will also be justified & called.

But it does not say that all those who are called & justified will remain so, & finally be glorified.

Of course it does. Your reading the passage from end to beginning doesn’t change that.

ChrisWRIT:

I don’t claim that God “rescinds” anything. However, we can leave the state of grace through our own faults.

At the end of Rom 8, Paul says that he’s convinced that nothing can separate the justified from God; why do you disagree with that?

ChrisWRIT:

On the other hand, one can be predestined to grace but not necessarily to glory.

We may be called, & enter a state of grace, becoming true believers in Christ, but then leave.

But that can’t mean justification as those God justifies, He also glorifies.

ChrisWRIT:

This all comes back to what seems to be your core issue - a view of justification as a one-time, permanent event - that to be “justified” means that **we are forgiven one time, for every sin we have committed or will ever commit in the future.

The Catholic Church disagrees with this view, as does the Bible**.

**Colossians 2:13-14

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us
all our transgressions,

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.**What do you think the above verses are saying?

ChrisWRIT:

Additionally, Scripture shows that it is a real possibility for a true Christian to commit mortal sin as indicated in numerous places, such as John 15:2, 6, 10, & Rom. 11:17-24.

I believe that true Christians are also justified by God Christians, and that He glorifies those He justifies; why don’t you believe that?

 

[guanophore]

Make up your mind; ISTM that whatever point you’re trying to make at the moment determines your salvation; ISTM that at this point in time, you are saved; earlier, you weren’t.

Where does that passage state that God rescinds His justification; that’s the question; you’re assuming a meaning based upon your church’s teaching, or what “seems to be”—prove that God rescinds His justification.

Who said I found it in the catechism?

I’m not talking about you, who doesn’t know his eternal disposition from one moment to the next; what scripture says is that those God justifies, He also glorifies.

Make up your mind; ISTM that whatever point you’re trying to make at the moment determines your salvation; ISTM that at this point in time, you are saved; earlier, you weren’t.

This has been explained to you many times, sandusky. The Apostolic teaching on salvation is that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Perhaps this understanding of the divine mystery is too sublime for you?

Paul states that this is the mindset of maturity. Maybe if you hang in there you can grasp it?

Where does that passage state that God rescinds His justification; that’s the question; you’re assuming a meaning based upon your church’s teaching, or what “seems to be”—prove that God rescinds His justification.

I was not the one that claimed this. I cannot prove something I don’t believe. Well, I guess I could play the devil’s advocate, but what would be the point? Catholics believe that a son can leave the Father’s house, and squander his inheritance by choosing to live with the pigs in the muck. It does not make him less a son, it just means that he can no longer enjoy the benefits of his father’s house.

Who said I found it in the catechism?

You claimed it was Catholic Teaching, so I figured you could back that up with facts.

I’m not talking about you, who doesn’t know his eternal disposition from one moment to the next; what scripture says is that those God justifies, He also glorifies.

No, scripture does not say that. Scripture is referring to persons in the past tense, who have already been perfected in glory. This does not apply to everyone. If I knew my eternal disposition, then I would have no need of hope, would I? I wouldn’t really need faith, either, or for that matter, love!

“For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” Rom 8:24-25

At the end of Rom 8, Paul says that he’s convinced that nothing can separate the justified from God; why do you disagree with that?

Catholics don’t find this at all disagreeable. In fact, this is one of the reasons we believe in the communion of saints. We believe that those united to one another in Christ cannot be separated by death. However, all of these examples Paul gives are externals. What can separate us is our willful denial of His love. In fact, His love remains there eternally for us, but we can spurn Him.

But that can’t mean justification as those God justifies, He also glorifies.

You are making a past tense passage present. This is twisting the meaning of the text. Paul is talking about completed events in the past.

Colossians 2:13-14

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us
all our transgressions,

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.What do you think the above verses are saying?

That the baptized Christian is in a state of grace.

I believe that true Christians are also justified by God Christians, and that He glorifies those He justifies; why don’t you believe that?

Because it is not Apostolic Teaching. You are free to believe whatever you want.

Yes, Christians are justified by God. Those who remain in His grace until the end will, indeed, be glorified.

“'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Rev 2:2-6

How can one have eternal life, separated from the light of Christ?

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

This has been explained to you many times, sandusky. The Apostolic teaching on salvation is that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Perhaps this understanding of the divine mystery is too sublime for you?

Yes; it’s an eternal reality; stop making it sooooo mysterious; the statements are quite simple.

guanophore:

Paul states that this is the mindset of maturity. Maybe if you hang in there you can grasp it?

I’ve already got it.

guanophore:

I was not the one that claimed this.

Then let the one who did answer.

guanophore:

No, scripture does not say that. Scripture is referring to persons in the past tense, who have already been perfected in glory. This does not apply to everyone. If I knew my eternal disposition, then I would have no need of hope, would I? I wouldn’t really need faith, either, or for that matter, love!

Correct! The eternity past tense (cf Eph 1:3ff).

“For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” Rom 8:24-25

Yes! With a biblical hope—a confident assurance.

guanophore:

Catholics don’t find this at all disagreeable. In fact, this is one of the reasons we believe in the communion of saints. We believe that those united to one another in Christ cannot be separated by death. However, all of these examples Paul gives are externals. What can separate us is our willful denial of His love. In fact, His love remains there eternally for us, but we can spurn Him.

Where in that passage does Paul state that "nothing can separate us from the love of God except our willful denial of His love???"

guanophore:

You are making a past tense passage present. This is twisting the meaning of the text. Paul is talking about completed events in the past.

No, I’m not. I’m agreeing with Paul who three verses later states, ”God is the One who justifies.” Paul does not state, ”God is the One who justified!”—an eternal reality; already finished in eternity.

guanophore:

That the baptized Christian is in a state of grace.

Not even close! No cigar!

guanophore:

How can one have eternal life, separated from the light of Christ?

Talk about twisting Scripture!

He is talking about the ecclesia at Ephesus; He is not talking about His one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God BODY—He may abandon the “church” at Ephesus, but He’s made promises to His body, and, in spite of what you’re being taught, Christ will never forsake those who are His. His will never perish (Jn 10:28), because God glorifies the ones He justifies (Rom 8:30; cf Eph 1:3ff).

 

[guanophore]

Yes; it’s an eternal reality; stop making it sooooo mysterious; the statements are quite simple.

Well, salvation is a mystery. If you think that the human mind can possibly understand and grasp the awesomeness of God and the plan of salvation for man, then you have a very small image of God.

I’ve already got it.

Then how is it that your understanding is not consistent with what Paul describes as a “mature” mind?

Correct! The eternity past tense (cf Eph 1:3ff).

So, we agree that this passage refers to all those who have been already glorified, and not those still working out our salvation?

Yes! With a biblical hope—a confident assurance.

As long as we remain…

Where in that passage does Paul state that ***"nothing can separate us from the love of God except our willful denial of His love***???????"

Catholics do not make doctrine out of single passages. We take all of the revelation together, that which is in scripture, and that which has been passed us down to us from the Apostles. In the light of that revelation, we see many areas where it is possible for an individual to spurn the grace of God after having first been enlightened to it. In this passage, all the possibilities of separation are external to the person’s will. No one can snatch us from His hand, but we can jump out.

No, I’m not. I’m agreeing with Paul who three verses later states, ”God is the One who justifies.” Paul does not state, ”God is the One who justified!”—an eternal reality; already finished in eternity.

As you wish. We have a different teaching from the Apostles, that makes it clear that the disobedient will be cut off.

Not even close! No cigar!

Do you think that a person who is baptized is not in a state of grace?

Talk about twisting Scripture!

He is talking about the ecclesia at Ephesus; He is not talking about His one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God BODY—He may abandon the “church” at Ephesus, but He’s made promises to His body, and, in spite of what you’re being taught, Christ will never forsake those who are His. His will never perish (Jn 10:28), because God glorifies the ones He justifies (Rom 8:30; cf Eph 1:3ff).

What do you think it means for Jesus to remove HIs lampstand? Why does He say He will do this if one falls from his first love? Why does He say the lampstand will be removed if they do not repent?

 

[sandusky]

Well, salvation is a mystery. If you think that the human mind can possibly understand and grasp the awesomeness of God and the plan of salvation for man, then you have a very small image of God.

Then how is it that your understanding is not consistent with what Paul describes as a “mature” mind?

So, we agree that this passage refers to all those who have been already glorified, and not those still working out our salvation?

As long as we remain…

Catholics do not make doctrine out of single passages. We take all of the revelation together, that which is in scripture, and that which has been passed us down to us from the Apostles. In the light of that revelation, we see many areas where it is possible for an individual to spurn the grace of God after having first been enlightened to it. In this passage, all the possibilities of separation are external to the person’s will. No one can snatch us from His hand, but we can jump out.

As you wish. We have a different teaching from the Apostles, that makes it clear that the disobedient will be cut off.

Do you think that a person who is baptized is not in a state of grace?

What do you think it means for Jesus to remove HIs lampstand? Why does He say He will do this if one falls from his first love? Why does He say the lampstand will be removed if they do not repent?

You use soooo many words to say so little, IMHO.

You’re posts never deal with the issues brought forth, but are only responses of mimicry—saying nothing—a non-apologetic, IMHO.

I am,

Eagerly awaiting your next mimic.

 

[sandusky]

[/quote]

 

[guanophore]

You use soooo many words to say so little, IMHO.

You’re posts never deal with the issues brought forth, but only mimic while saying nothing—a non-apologetic, IMHO.

I sign this,

Eagerly await your next mimic.

I notice that you did not answer any of my questions.

 

[sandusky]

I notice that you did not answer any of my questions.

If you’d only pay attention, you’d know that I answered them in my previous post, IMO

 

[guanophore]

Questions for Sandusky:

Then how is it that your understanding is not consistent with what Paul describes as a “mature” mind?

So, we agree that this passage refers to all those who have been already glorified, and not those still working out our salvation?

Do you think that a person who is baptized is not in a state of grace?

What do you think it means for Jesus to remove HIs lampstand? Why does He say He will do this if one falls from his first love? Why does He say the lampstand will be removed if they do not repent?

He is talking about the ecclesia at Ephesus; He is not talking about His one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God BODY—He may abandon the “church” at Ephesus, but He’s made promises to His body, and, in spite of what you’re being taught, Christ will never forsake those who are His. His will never perish (Jn 10:28), because God glorifies the ones He justifies (Rom 8:30; cf Eph 1:3ff).

Jesus identifies Himself completely with HIs body, the Church. Therefore, He would have to deny Himself, which scripture clearly states will not happen. Jesus, who promised to remain with his Church until the end of time,will not abandon His own. You are contradicting yourself here, saying He will abandon the Church (those who are His) and that he will never forsake those who are His.

Changing the Holy Writings into a tense that supports your extrabiblical doctrine will not change the Truth that Jesus taught. Jesus will blot out names from the book of life.

Rev 3:4-6
5 **He who conquers **shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

 

[sandusky]

Questions for Sandusky:

Already answered, guanophore; you’re now “re-phrasing” everything, and I’m not interested.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Jesus identifies Himself completely with HIs body, the Church. Therefore, He would have to deny Himself, which scripture clearly states will not happen. Jesus, who promised to remain with his Church until the end of time,will not abandon His own. You are contradicting yourself here, saying He will abandon the Church (those who are His) and that he will never forsake those who are His.

You have no understanding of what’s being said in Revelation, with regard to the 7 churches, IMHO, and you’re the one saying that the church at Ephesus will “lose eternal life,” so ISTM you’re the one doing the contradicting.

guanophore:

Changing the Holy Writings into a tense that supports your extrabiblical doctrine will not change the Truth that Jesus taught. Jesus will blot out names from the book of life.

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Where, in that passage does Jesus say He will blot out names?

Seems to me that you are changing the writings to support your extrabiblical doctrine.

Compare what Paul says about those that God justifies, and glorifies in Rom 8:30, with what Paul says that those who God justifies and glorifies overwhelmingly do through Him who loves them, in v37, and compare that to the wording in Rev 3 that you quote above.

Are you getting a picture yet?

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Where?

Hi sandusky,

Both predestination to grace & to glory are taught by the Bible. Where?

For starters:

Predestination to grace: Eph. 1:3-12
Predestination to glory: Rom. 8:18-30

Of course it does. Your reading the passage from end to beginning doesn’t change that.

Disagree if you must.

”And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

It seems to me that you’re cutting the verse down to only the last six words: “those he justified, he also glorified”, & ignoring the rest of it.

If you read the entire verse, it comes back to the question of who are the predestined that Paul is talking about? Logically, he can only be talking about those who are predestined to glory.

Only by selectively paying attention to the last third of the verse can one infer that justification is a one-time, permanent status that necessitates glory.

At the end of Rom 8, Paul says that he’s convinced that nothing can separate the justified from God; why do you disagree with that?

Because I don’t believe that Paul contradicted either himself or Christ.

No, nothing “can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

And I agree with Paul’s words. But they do not say that we cannot leave of our own accord, or that we cannot fall from grace, but that nothing “can separate us from the love of God…”

Both Paul & Jesus taught that we can be cut away from the Body of Christ. There are many examples of these facts, but here are just two.

I note that Rom. 8:37-39 also supports the fact that Paul was talking to “true Christians” in this letter, but only a few chapters later, in Rom.11:17-24, Paul warns them that even though we can be grafted in to the vine, we can also be cut off from it.

In this, he repeated Christ’s teaching that He is the true vine, we are the branches, but we can be cut off. (John 15:1-7)

But that can’t mean justification as those God justifies, He also glorifies.

Colossians 2:13-14

“When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”

What do you think the above verses are saying?

As I’m sure you would agree, it is important to note ALL of scripture, not just select items that can be read to support ideas that are contradictory to the rest of the Bible.

The entire chapter shows that Paul is talking to baptized Christians about freedom from human regulations, which are not the means of salvation - Christ is.

I believe that true Christians

are also justified by God Christians, and that He glorifies those He justifies; why don’t you believe that?

I do believe that Christians are justified by God, & that those God glorifies, He also justifies.

However, the “no true Christian” argument seems to miss the fact that while justification is necessary to be glorified, glorification is not necessary for one to be justified, as justification can be lost.

The two verses above demonstrate that, but are hardly the only ones that do so. The NT is replete with warnings to true Christians not to abandon the faith; showing that we can be believers, we can be true Christians, we can have real faith - but still fall away.

James Akin (a former reformed Protestant) penned a couple of articles explaining the Catholic views on salvation & justification. Perhaps you can come to understand our belief better by reading them.

Salvation: Past, Present & Future
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PASTPRES.HTM

Justification in Catholic Teaching
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.htm

The Justifications of Abraham
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ABRAHAM.htm

He also wrote an article called “A Tiptoe Through TULIP” you might find informative.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm



God bless,

Chris