Faith Alone

  • Thread starter Thread starter Timmy_Z
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This makes God contingent, but scripture declares God sovereign!*

ISTM that you’re view of God is deficient; so, right from the beginning your theology errs, and the errors compound as you formulate your theology on its first error.
God, in His sovreignty, chooses to make his actions contingent upon those of humans. This is shown throughout scripture. It does not make Him less sovereign. The Apostles taught that Christians are to judge angels, and participate in the judgement of the world. To prepare us, God is teaching us how to exercise right judgement.
You’re right that God knows what all men will freely do with respect to accepting Hi as their King—there is none who seeks for God; therefore, God must choose to save some, or none would be saved.
I agree with you that all are under the sentence of death. However, you are again taking this passage out of context. When you look at this psalm (14) you can see that it starts out speaking about “the fool” who says in his heart “there is no God”. The passage you cite here relates to those who are godless. The same Psalm then states " God is with the generation of the righteous. 6 You would confound the plans of the poor,but the LORD is his refuge…When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad. " Ps 14:5-7

There are righteous people,those who have not gone astray into unbelief. Granted, they are a small remnant, but in this passage, “all” does not mean “all” in the way that Protestants claim.
Scripture commands the believer to be assured; perhaps that’s your “misinterpretation” of the whole of scripture?
Yes, and scripture also commands the believer to hope in that which is unseen, hold fast until the end, not fall from grace, etc, etc. All these commands must be taken together as a whole, and not one picked out and the others excluded in order to form doctrine.
”By the grace of God we attain…” the truth of your heart with regards to earning salvation reveals itself, IMHO.
Such statements clearly reveal a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Salvation cannot be “earned” at all (except by the blood of Christ on the cross). It is by the grace of God that we attain to the good works that perfect our faith. Seeking the truth in love, we grow up in every way unto Him. Growth is not “earned”. It is something that occurs naturally as the fruit is attached to the vine.
That’s the pillar and foundation of the Arminian position with respect to creation—the glorious and inviolable will of the creature trumps the will of the creator.
I knew Arminian theology was heretical, but that clarifies it for me, thanks. 👍
Code:
Rom 8:28-29; the truth that His election is one of divine grace, not of foreseen human works or merit (Rom 9:11; 11:5-6; 2 Tim 1:9).
It seems that you, like moondweller, do not distinguish between works of the flesh and holy works. In any case, works of “merit” are those that proceed from grace, through faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God, so human effort apart from it has no eternal value.
 
I agree with you on this one, MD. Many are called, but few are chosen. Those who choose to answer the call become clothed with the righteousness of God in Christ. Do you think that God clothes them, or do they clothe themselves. Who is responsible for putting on the wedding garment?
God provides the clothing, guanophore, always has. The ancient replacement of fig leaves for animal skins - which required the shedding of blood (Gen. 3:7 vs. 21):Gen 3:21 “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.”
 
40.png
guanophore:
God, in His sovreignty, chooses to make his actions contingent upon those of humans. This is shown throughout scripture.
Give several examples from each of the books.
40.png
guanophore:
I agree with you that all are under the sentence of death. However, you are again taking this passage out of context. When you look at this psalm (14) you can see that it starts out speaking about “the fool” who says in his heart “there is no God”. The passage you cite here relates to those who are godless.
guanophore, the passage states that ”the Lord looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understood or sought God.” There were none. The difficulty with the passages is yours**—You don’t believe.**
40.png
guanophore:
Such statements clearly reveal a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Salvation cannot be “earned” at all (except by the blood of Christ on the cross). It is by the grace of God that we attain to the good works that perfect our faith. Seeking the truth in love, we grow up in every way unto Him. Growth is not “earned”. It is something that occurs naturally as the fruit is attached to the vine.
Faith alone was one of the points of the reformation, guanophore, and that’s not because the RCC believed in it, rather than in salvation by works. No matter what you say this day, Trent’s infallible declarations concerning the role of works in salvation still stand.
40.png
guanophore:
I knew Arminian theology was heretical, but that clarifies it for me, thanks.
My statement was in response to this statement by your Catholic fellow, Good Fella, in which he said, ”Our free will is that stone only God can create in order to be too heavy for him to lift. God does not impose himself on us.”

That’s a Catholic as well as an Arminian belief.

Now what’s that you were saying about heretical beliefs again?
 
Men are not robots, neither are men completely free. Men are utterly dependent upon God for all things.

Christ came to reverse the effects of man’s failure.

How is it you see that as man taking responsibility for reversing what he freely brought about?

Define “free will,” and cite where Scripture says man has one.

You infer that some say man doesn’t freely choose to say “yes” to God. Who says that? And, please be specific.

You mention Calvin. Please specifically list where Calvin denies any human responsibility in God’s plan of salvation?

Please list the specific teaching by Calvin that God merely covers up our sins externally at the expense of our moral responsibility with no regard as to whether we experience a change of heart, or amend our lives…?
Man is ultimately dependent upon God for his saving grace. However, according to John Calvin: “It is not a case of the believer’s ‘cooperation’ with grace; the will is first actuated through grace” [Conversion of the Will Is the Effect of Divine Grace Inwardly Bestowed, .7]. With respect to our human nature, Calvin was convinced that man is completely corrupted from the surface to the core. Man can never hope to be good unless God determines he is good. We can never be good by our own free will. Says Calvin: “The wicked themselves have been created for this very end - that they may perish.” [Calvin on Scripture and Divine Sovereignty, John Murray, p.61: Michigan: Baker Book House, 1960]. He ignored Augustine’s belief that there still was a residue of goodness or the original grace in Adam left in man that would be enough for him to freely decide whether he would like to return to that perfect state of grace, by accepting the helping graces God offers him and cooperating with them upon his baptism. Yet Calvin was convinced that man’s will is in complete moral bondage: “The will, therefore, is bound by the slavery of sin, that it cannot excite itself, much less devote itself to anything good.” [Inst. 2.iii.2]. And this something good would include the gift of grace and faith, without which the elect could not hope to even possibly be saved unless this grace of faith were imputed beyond any power of human resistance. :nope:

It is God who wills the corruption of man. God has decreed our fall and subsequent evil inclinations for the sole purpose of demonstrating the power of his grace by bestowing it on an elected passive few. What logically follows is that the fall of Adam was not brought about by his own free will. In the ‘Institutes’ we read “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawful,” and that “man falls, the providence of God so ordaining.” 4.xviii.2; 3.xxviii.8] Both the fallen and the saved have no choice in the matter in Calvin’s scheme of salvation. The Elect are imputed the grace that was stripped from Adam by Divine ordinance for the glory and honour of God. Calvin’s theology makes us out to be nothing but preprogrammed robots or puppets on a string. If this is not so, then why did Calvin contend that there is no human merit in the act of faith which justifies us? Because, according to him, faith is not a ‘free’ act of human co-operation no more than the fall of man was a free act of disobedience on Adam’s part. Unlike Luther, Calvin believed that God did not simply foresee the fall, but actually decreed it. “The fall of the first man or in him the ruin of his posterity was arranged all by the determination of his own will.” [Inst. lll.21.7.] Calvin was a supralapsarian in asserting that God gave the decree of election and damnation before the fall of man. Adam had no choice, but to disobey God; so he had no free will and was not responsible for his own disobedience. Man can only assume his responsibilty in restoring himself to God’s friendship, by co-operating with God’s grace, if he has a free will. To undo his own disobedience, which presupposes a free will, man must freely be obedient to God out of love and trust. This is the act of faith which Calvin denied.

Calvin was criticized by other reformers for having conjured the existence of an unjust and alien God. His harsh retort to them was “I confess that all descendants of Adam fell by the divine will (Sandusky, you wrote: “Adam was responsible for the fall” by his own will: my emphasis)” and that “we must return to God’s sovereign determination, the cause of which is hidden” (by God’s second hidden will - a moral loophole - since man never had a will of his own from the beginning). [Inst. lll.23.4.] “Therefore, some men are born devoted from the womb for certain death, that His name may be glorified in their destruction…Because life and death are acts of God’s will rather than of his foreknowledge (God does not foresee what we freely do.),” and “He foresees further events only ‘in consequence of his decree’ that they ‘shall happen’.” [Quotes taken from ‘Calvinism’, The Catholic Encyclopedia]
The fall of man was necessary, so Adam and Eve had to sin so that the elect could be saved for the glory of God, not out of love by God’s divine intervention after we freely rebelled against Him. Likewise, the elect cannot avoid being saved. Hence, there is no merit in what they do and no genuine Christian virtues. Our good works are meaningless in the economy of salvation and amount to nothing, although Jesus has warned us that we ‘shall’ be judged by our deeds. :yup:

Both Calvin and Luther were convinced salvation or damnation is predetermined by God for each individual regardless of his choices or actions. Both of them rejected the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, supported by Scripture, that God gives ‘every’ person the grace to choose salvation, but he has the freedom to reject God’s offer and so bring damnation upon himself. Indeed, not only Calvin, but also Luther erroneously taught that justification by faith does not bring about any genuine conversion in a person and that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to him without any real change in the kind of person he is. Luther draws a picture of man as “dung covered by snow”. Thus neither Calvin nor Luther had any place for good works in salvation. Christian behaviour amounted to nothing more than a window dressing ornamenting man’s justification. There is no true merit in human Christian virtue pleasing to God. In the dismal words of Calvin: “Man, being subject to the curse of the law, has no means left of attaining salvation but through faith alone.” ( Paul regarded love the greatest of virtues, even above faith and hope.) However, “we never dream of a faith destitute of good works, or of a justification unattended by them; this is the sole difference, while we recognize a necessary connection between faith and good works, we attribute justification not to works, but to faith.” As the wicked have been created for the strict purpose of their damnation, so too the justified by faith alone, through grace alone, by Christ alone, and for the sovereignty of God alone shall be saved. It doesn’t matter what we do. Both good and bad works are not taken into account by God.

Our sins are reckoned or imputed in Christ’s account, and our Lord’s righteousness is credited or imputed to the sinner’s account all by faith alone. For Jesus has been punished in our stead. ( I take it that the Jews ‘punished’ the unblemished lambs on the Day of Atonement. ;)) Calvin: “Thus we simply interpret justification as the acceptance with which God receives us into his favour ‘as if we were righteous’ (being covered in snow); and we say that this justification consists in the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ…To declare that we are deemed righteous, solely because the obedience of Christ is imputed to us as if it were our own, is just to place our righteousness in Christ.” ‘Our Righteousness Is Not in Ourselves’, Dr. John Calvin] It is not our obedience to the will of God, but Christ’s, that makes us righteous before God. Without our obedience, then, there is no further need for any commandments; nor is there any need to be punished, for Christ has been punished for us. Thus the moment we merely have faith in Christ, our Lord’s spotless virtue and meritorious ‘execution’ is passed on to us as if it were our own. We are sinful in state but righteous in standing, sinful in condition (no Sacrament of Penance and no works of mercy) but righteous in position. The great Calvinistic cover up!

Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.” For this reason THEY STAND BEFORE GOD’S THRONE AND WORSHIP HIM NIGHT AND DAY IN HIS TEMPLE. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them." {Revelation 7, 13-15}

" This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than to lay his life down for a friend." { John 15, 12-13 }

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
{John 14, 15}

“For what reason was our father ABRAHAM blessed? Was it not because HE WROUGHT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH THROUGH FAITH?”
Bishop Clement of Rome (our third Pope) ‘Epistle to the Corinthians, 31’ (A.D. 98)

“Our righteousness is not in ourselves.”
Dr. John Calvin (16th Century)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Man is ultimately dependent upon God for his saving grace. However, according to John Calvin: “It is not a case of the believer’s ‘cooperation’ with grace; the will is first actuated through grace” [Conversion of the Will Is the Effect of Divine Grace Inwardly Bestowed, .7]. With respect to our human nature, Calvin was convinced that man is completely corrupted from the surface to the core. Man can never hope to be good unless God determines he is good. We can never be good by our own free will. Says Calvin: “The wicked themselves have been created for this very end - that they may perish.” [Calvin on Scripture and Divine Sovereignty, John Murray, p.61: Michigan: Baker Book House, 1960]. He ignored Augustine’s belief that there still was a residue of goodness or the original grace in Adam left in man that would be enough for him to freely decide whether he would like to return to that perfect state of grace, by accepting the helping graces God offers him and cooperating with them upon his baptism. Yet Calvin was convinced that man’s will is in complete moral bondage: “The will, therefore, is bound by the slavery of sin, that it cannot excite itself, much less devote itself to anything good.” [Inst. 2.iii.2]. And this something good would include the gift of grace and faith, without which the elect could not hope to even possibly be saved unless this grace of faith were imputed beyond any power of human resistance. :nope:

It is God who wills the corruption of man. God has decreed our fall and subsequent evil inclinations for the sole purpose of demonstrating the power of his grace by bestowing it on an elected passive few. What logically follows is that the fall of Adam was not brought about by his own free will. In the ‘Institutes’ we read “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawful,” and that “man falls, the providence of God so ordaining.” 4.xviii.2; 3.xxviii.8] Both the fallen and the saved have no choice in the matter in Calvin’s scheme of salvation. The Elect are imputed the grace that was stripped from Adam by Divine ordinance for the glory and honour of God. Calvin’s theology makes us out to be nothing but preprogrammed robots or puppets on a string. If this is not so, then why did Calvin contend that there is no human merit in the act of faith which justifies us? Because, according to him, faith is not a ‘free’ act of human co-operation no more than the fall of man was a free act of disobedience on Adam’s part. Unlike Luther, Calvin believed that God did not simply foresee the fall, but actually decreed it. “The fall of the first man or in him the ruin of his posterity was arranged all by the determination of his own will.” [Inst. lll.21.7.] Calvin was a supralapsarian in asserting that God gave the decree of election and damnation before the fall of man. Adam had no choice, but to disobey God; so he had no free will and was not responsible for his own disobedience. Man can only assume his responsibilty in restoring himself to God’s friendship, by co-operating with God’s grace, if he has a free will. To undo his own disobedience, which presupposes a free will, man must freely be obedient to God out of love and trust. This is the act of faith which Calvin denied.

Calvin was criticized by other reformers for having conjured the existence of an unjust and alien God. His harsh retort to them was “I confess that all descendants of Adam fell by the divine will (Sandusky, you wrote: “Adam was responsible for the fall” by his own will: my emphasis)” and that “we must return to God’s sovereign determination, the cause of which is hidden” (by God’s second hidden will - a moral loophole - since man never had a will of his own from the beginning). [Inst. lll.23.4.] “Therefore, some men are born devoted from the womb for certain death, that His name may be glorified in their destruction…Because life and death are acts of God’s will rather than of his foreknowledge (God does not foresee what we freely do.),” and “He foresees further events only ‘in consequence of his decree’ that they ‘shall happen’.” [Quotes taken from ‘Calvinism’, The Catholic Encyclopedia]
The fall of man was necessary, so Adam and Eve had to sin so that the elect could be saved for the glory of God, not out of love by God’s divine intervention after we freely rebelled against Him. Likewise, the elect cannot avoid being saved. Hence, there is no merit in what they do and no genuine Christian virtues. Our good works are meaningless in the economy of salvation and amount to nothing, although Jesus has warned us that we ‘shall’ be judged by our deeds. :yup:

Both Calvin and Luther were convinced salvation or damnation is predetermined by God for each individual regardless of his choices or actions. Both of them rejected the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, supported by Scripture, that God gives ‘every’ person the grace to choose salvation, but he has the freedom to reject God’s offer and so bring damnation upon himself. Indeed, not only Calvin, but also Luther erroneously taught that justification by faith does not bring about any genuine conversion in a person and that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to him without any real change in the kind of person he is. Luther draws a picture of man as “dung covered by snow”. Thus neither Calvin nor Luther had any place for good works in salvation. Christian behaviour amounted to nothing more than a window dressing ornamenting man’s justification. There is no true merit in human Christian virtue pleasing to God. In the dismal words of Calvin: “Man, being subject to the curse of the law, has no means left of attaining salvation but through faith alone.” ( Paul regarded love the greatest of virtues, even above faith and hope.) However, “we never dream of a faith destitute of good works, or of a justification unattended by them; this is the sole difference, while we recognize a necessary connection between faith and good works, we attribute justification not to works, but to faith.” As the wicked have been created for the strict purpose of their damnation, so too the justified by faith alone, through grace alone, by Christ alone, and for the sovereignty of God alone shall be saved. It doesn’t matter what we do. Both good and bad works are not taken into account by God.

Our sins are reckoned or imputed in Christ’s account, and our Lord’s righteousness is credited or imputed to the sinner’s account all by faith alone. For Jesus has been punished in our stead. ( I take it that the Jews ‘punished’ the unblemished lambs on the Day of Atonement. ;)) Calvin: “Thus we simply interpret justification as the acceptance with which God receives us into his favour ‘as if we were righteous’ (being covered in snow); and we say that this justification consists in the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ…To declare that we are deemed righteous, solely because the obedience of Christ is imputed to us as if it were our own, is just to place our righteousness in Christ.” ‘Our Righteousness Is Not in Ourselves’, Dr. John Calvin] It is not our obedience to the will of God, but Christ’s, that makes us righteous before God. Without our obedience, then, there is no further need for any commandments; nor is there any need to be punished, for Christ has been punished for us. Thus the moment we merely have faith in Christ, our Lord’s spotless virtue and meritorious ‘execution’ is passed on to us as if it were our own. We are sinful in state but righteous in standing, sinful in condition (no Sacrament of Penance and no works of mercy) but righteous in position. The great Calvinistic cover up!

Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.” For this reason THEY STAND BEFORE GOD’S THRONE AND WORSHIP HIM NIGHT AND DAY IN HIS TEMPLE. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them." {Revelation 7, 13-15}

" This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than to lay his life down for a friend." { John 15, 12-13 }

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
{John 14, 15}

“For what reason was our father ABRAHAM blessed? Was it not because HE WROUGHT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH THROUGH FAITH?”
Bishop Clement of Rome (our third Pope) ‘Epistle to the Corinthians, 31’ (A.D. 98)

“Our righteousness is not in ourselves.”
Dr. John Calvin (16th Century)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
Here are Calvin’s Institutes, and Calvin’s Commentaries for anyone interested in referencing them, and what’s your point, Good Fella?
 
Here are Calvin’s Institutes, and Calvin’s Commentaries for anyone interested in referencing them, and what’s your point, Good Fella?
I was going to ask you the same question. 😉

I have another question: Are you really sure that you left the Catholic Church by the grace of God, or were you denied a marriage annulment (etc.)? One thing is certain, the elect cannot be sure who they are, for only God is omniscient. Anything more is just begging the question.

I bet you didn’t even read my last post, since you have no argument. I don’t think you really understand Calvin. That’s why. (Edited)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Good Fella:
I have another question: Are you really sure that you left the Catholic Church by the grace of God, or were you denied a marriage annulment (etc.)?
No drama; I was a teen and a Christ rejector.
Good Fella:
One thing is certain, the elect cannot be sure who they are, for only God is omniscient. Anything more is just begging the question.
1 John gives guidelines for knowing whether or not one is among the elect, and states that the purpose that he wrote the epistle was so that one may know.

What do you think is John’s purpose in writing that epistle? Is John in error with the statements concerning ones ability to know that he has eternal life? Do you think that John is pulling my leg?
Good Fella:
I bet you didn’t even read my last post, since you have no argument.
You’ve lost the bet. You’re post didn’t tell me anything I don’t know; that’s why I asked your point?
Good Fella:
I don’t think you really understand Calvin. That’s why.
I see.

(Edited).
 
This deals with reliance on the Mosaic Law to save, Pax, as Heb 6 did.

Be that as it may, how do you square your contention that the one mentioned above loses his salvation, and that He was justified and belonged to Christ with the passages that state that those who are Christ’s will never perish (Jn 10), and that it’s the Father’s will that the Son lose none of those given to Him by the Father, but raise them up on the last day?
I gave an analysis and answer to your view of John 10 in post #55.

Please be advised that in Galatians 5:1-5, Paul is warning Christian believers not to submit to circumcision and he is telling them the consequences of doing so.

I have posted the passage again for your review:

Galatians 5:1-5
“FOR FREEDOM Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.”

Likewise, Hebrews 6 is addressed to Hebrew-Christian converts and is warning them about apostacy and the consequences of becoming an apostate.
 
This deals with reliance on the Mosaic Law to save, Pax, as Heb 6 did.

Be that as it may, how do you square your contention that the one mentioned above loses his salvation, and that He was justified and belonged to Christ with the passages that state that those who are Christ’s will never perish (Jn 10), and that it’s the Father’s will that the Son lose none of those given to Him by the Father, but raise them up on the last day?
I gave an analysis and answer to this in post #55.

Please be advised that in Galatians 5:1-5, Paul is warning Christian believers not to submit to circumcision and he is telling them the consequences of doing so.

I have posted the passage again for your review:

Galatians 5:1-5
“FOR FREEDOM Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.”

Likewise, Hebrews 6 is addressed to Hebrew-Christian converts and is warning them about apostacy and the consequences of becoming an apostate.
 
Salvation is impossible for man to do on his own by his own deeds. However, likewise, the faith of man is not enough either.
This is answered quite adequately by Paul:Phil 3:8 "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,
…
…
Yours is simply to believe it, as Paul did and he received the righteousness which comes from God “on the basis of FAITH” (alone).
You have made an incredible mistake taking this particular quote from Paul. Please be advised that Paul is making a clear statement about something that he has done as part of his salvation. Paul is clearly saying that his faith in Jesus cost him everything that he had. Paul “gave up” all that he had in the totality of his Jewish OT religious faith in order to become a Christian.

Paul gave up his position as a Pharisee and gave up all of the security that he once new in his Jewish faith. In accepting the totality of the Christian gospel faith, Paul looks at what he gave up as “loss.” The loss is to Paul unimportant in comparison to what he has gained in the Christian gospel faith in Jesus Christ our Savior.

Paul counts his loss as “rubbish” in comparison to what he has gained.

In coming to the Christian faith in Jesus we give up whatever we were before hand. This is something that everyone must do in repenting of the dead works of their prior non-Christian lives.
 
God provides the clothing, guanophore, always has. The ancient replacement of fig leaves for animal skins - which required the shedding of blood (Gen. 3:7 vs. 21):Gen 3:21 “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.”
In 1 John 3:7-8 we read the following:

“Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.”

This verse like so many others that we have quoted completely contradicts your doctrine. There is a great deal packed into this passage.

Please note that a person is righteous if he does right, just as Jesus is righteous. If you do not believe this then John says that you are decieved. It is a deception to believe in imputed righteousness and faith without works. We must do what is right to be righteous. Sin is of the devil. God sent his son so as to destroy sin which is the work of the devil.

If we do the holy works of the Christian gospel in Christ then we are righteous. These are the works prepared by the Father in advance of our justification, and these are the works that are by grace. Sins are of the devil and are the works of the devil. The natural man is trapped in sin and death. The regenerated man is freed from committing sin, and can do the works of the Father.

It is just as John says: “He who does right is righteous, as he[Jesus] is righteous.” This is the way we have the righteousness of Christ…it is not merely imputed. We have the divine righteousness of Christ within us. This is the rebirth, regeneration, and righteousness of Christ. It is through Christ that we do what is right and have the full righteousness of justification.
 
1 John gives guidelines for knowing whether or not one is among the elect, and states that the purpose that he wrote the epistle was so that one may know.

What do you think is John’s purpose in writing that epistle? Is John in error with the statements concerning ones ability to know that he has eternal life? Do you think that John is pulling my leg?

You’ve lost the bet. You’re post didn’t tell me anything I don’t know; that’s why I asked your point?
First of all, I replied to your request that I show you who said what and to provide quotes of Calvin to support an earlier argument of mine. That was the point of my reply. And it would appear you didn’t know that Calvin believed Adam did not fall by freely disobeying God. You said that he was responsible for the fall. And in contradiction of this assertion, you asked me to show you where the Bible tells us man has a free will. Man cannot be responsible for his actions if he is without free will.

In his first epistle John tell us that Jesus is the saviour of the entire world (4,14) not just of the elect as Calvin envisioned. And he adds that not all are predestined to glory by their own choosing (2,2). John’s understanding of the meaning of the ‘elect’ was the traditional one of the Apostolic Catholic Church. The apostle must have known Clement of Rome (A.D. 98) who likewise taught we are not saved by faith alone and made righteous externally of ourselves by the imputation of God’s grace and the righteousness of Christ. In the same epistle John speaks of obedience, the recurrence of sin, and the need for repentance by an interior transformation of the self. Neither of us as individuals can be sure that we won’t suddenly die in a state of grave sin and fail to repent in time. And John obviously believed in mortal sin, since the acknowledgement of our sins and repentance are part of the package of knowing we have indeed been saved (1, 8-10). Our salvation is something we assuredly hope for. We pray that the thief in the night will not come and catch us off guard. Christ’s parable must not be ignored, nor the virtue of hope rejected by us.

“Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove the lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” { Revelation 2, 3}

Unfortunately Calvin believed, unlike John, that the elect ‘will unfailingly persevere’ to the end because of an imputation of grace that co-opts our free will. God has eternally determined who will actually be saved by no merit on the recipient’s part. The grace the elect receive can never be lost: “Once saved, always saved.” Meanwhile Christian acts merely serve as indicators that show who actually are counted among the elect much the same as the blood applied on the door posts of the ancient Jews held captive in Egypt marked who would be spared the wrath of God. In any event, John held the true Catholic position: The elect are those who ‘have persevered’. Only those who have persevered to the end can know they have been assuredly saved. These are the elect. Until we are called from this life, only the omniscient God can know with absolute certainty. There is no need for hope if our personal salvation is eternally guaranteed by God’s decree. We cannot know for sure what God has foreseen us do or fail to do. :nope: Paul exhorts us to hope - not to be certain - in the active course of our virtuous Christian lives.

Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer (grace is infused). Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality. Bless those who persecute you, do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
{Romans 12, 12-15}

So by having persevered to the end WE ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST BY BECOMING RIGHTEOUS WITH CHRIST. WE ARE NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS BY CHRIST ALONE!

“Blessed are THEY WHO WASH THEIR ROBES so as to HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates.”
{ Revelation 22, 14}

“I am coming quickly. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one may take your crown.”
{ Revelation 3, 11}

“The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.”
{Revelation 21, 7}

One of the seven deadly sins against the Holy Spirit is the “presumption of saving yourself without merit”. We find a strange twist in Calvin’s doctrine: the presumption of being saved without merit. Our good deeds play no role in the economy of our salvation, since we are corrupt to the core by the decree of Almighty God. Calvin’s false teaching amounts to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, for THE ELECT EXPECT TO BE SAVED WITHOUT DESERVING TO BE. :yup: Of course, Calvinist Protestants do not believe that they can save themselves: Christ alone saves. They know they will be saved solely by Christ’s merits, denying any genuine salvific human mediation in co-operation with Christ and in Christ. And here is where the blasphemy arises: This pantheistic denial shuns the word of God: “We are co-workers with Christ,” says the apostle Paul. We are aware of the grim fate of the servant who buried the talents his master had given him. Our salvation most surely depends on our “free” co-operation with the Holy Spirit and the grace he infuses within us. Without any merit on our part, we cannot ever hope to be saved. Our ‘genuine’ conversion and spiritual growth, which require both faith and good works, are essential for salvation.

His master said to him,“Well ‘done’, my good and faithful servant.”
{Matthew 25, 21}

“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men, for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.”
Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
In 1 John 3:7-8 we read the following:

“Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.”

This verse like so many others that we have quoted completely contradicts your doctrine. There is a great deal packed into this passage.

Please note that a person is righteous if he does right, just as Jesus is righteous.
Pax, you brushed off my post to you on positional sanctification, that is, the objective, divinely revealed truths of a true believer’s new identity in the risen Christ. And now you have brushed off the first few verses of 1 John chapter three which sets the context for verses seven and eight:1 Jn. 3:1-3 "See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be.“Now, in the rest of the chapter John presents four “We know” that separate the “children of God” from those who are of the devil:1 Jn. 3:2b We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

1 John 3:14 “We know that we have passed out of death into life,…”

1 John 3:16 “We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us;…”

1 John 3:24 "The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us…"John’s letters were written to warn those early believers of the false doctrines and practices of the Gnostics of their day and whose teaching and practices had penetrated the churches. So in his letters John contrasts the two: those who are the children of God (through faith in Christ), and the Gnostics who are not. In verses seven and eight, which you pull out of context, John warns the believers, distinguishing them as “little children” (referring to their being “children of God”) saying, “let no one deceive you…,” and contrasts the character of the children of God with that of those who are of the world and of the devil1 John 3:7-9 …"the one who practices (present tense = habitually practices) righteousness is (not becomes) righteous, just as He (Christ, in whom he is) is righteous; the one who practices sin (present tense = habitually) is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin (habitually), (why?) because His seed abides (continually) in him; and he cannot sin (habitually), (why?) because he is born of God."John is presenting a warning for those believers to be on the alert and to clearly identify those who ARE the “children of God” from those who are not. He is not presenting conditions for salvation or how to achieve righteousness before God.

Christ came in order to destroy the works of the devil (i.e., all made sinners through Adam), and that through His redemptive work on cross:.Rom 3:23-24 “…for all sinned (past tense = in Adam) and fall short (present tense = continually) of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”
If you do not believe this then John says that you are decieved.
No, John warns them not to be deceived. And the way they can protect themselves from deception is by clearly identifying the character of the “children of God” from those of the devil.
It is a deception to believe in imputed righteousness and faith without works.
John states no such thing in his letters. But he does say this concerning the "children of God:"1 John 5:11-13 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

1 John 5:18-20 "We know that no one who is born of God sins (habitually); but He who was born (i.e., Christ) of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in {the power of} the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."There’s that positional truth again, Pax. That glorious truth concerning believers which you brush off so easily to support your doctrine of works.
It is just as John says: “He who does right is righteous, as he[Jesus] is righteous.” This is the way we have the righteousness of Christ…it is not merely imputed. We have the divine righteousness of Christ within us. This is the rebirth, regeneration, and righteousness of Christ. It is through Christ that we do what is right and have the full righteousness of justification.
You err, Pax. Regeneration is not justification. Regeneration gives the believer new life, a new nature. Justification gives (gifts) the believer, who is regenerated, a whole new standing before God (Rom. 3:24).
 
Good Fella:
First of all, I replied to your request that I show you who said what and to provide quotes of Calvin to support an earlier argument of mine. That was the point of my reply. And it would appear you didn’t know that Calvin believed Adam did not fall by freely disobeying God. You said that he was responsible for the fall. And in contradiction of this assertion, you asked me to show you where the Bible tells us man has a free will. Man cannot be responsible for his actions if he is without free will.
Several points come to mind; first, I stated in an earlier post to you that your error stems from, IMHO, a wrong view of God. Logically, it follows that if your starting point is in error, the rest of what you believe, being built on the first error is also error.

Secondly, I stated in an earlier post to you, perhaps you missed it, that:God’s foreknowledge is His knowledge of all actual things before they exist. His foreknowledge is made certain, not by foresight, but by divine decree by which He determined all existing things. His foreknowledge is equated with His counsel (plan or decree).Therefore, I can say with certainty that God decreed the Fall**Isaiah 46:9-10

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;**God, as creator, has declared what will come to pass.**Matthew 26:24

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!..”

Luke 22:22

“For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”**God is absolutely sovereign in what will come to pass, and man is absolutely responsible for his own actions.

That’s biblical truth.

Ps 115:3 states, ”…our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Therefore, one must conclude that the Fall of Adam, and its casting into sin of the human race, is, at the very least, pleasing to God.
Good Fella:
In his first epistle John tell us that Jesus is the saviour of the entire world (4,14) not just of the elect as Calvin envisioned.
John also records the prayer of the Lord in his Gospel, chapter 17, and quotes Jesus saying:**John 17:9

9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.**If Jesus is the savior of the entire world, how is it that He doesn’t pray for the Father’s care of the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father, both at that time, and in the future?
Good Fella:
Our salvation is something we assuredly hope for.
There is worldly hope: I hope so, and there is biblical hope: a confident expectation in God with the nuance of counting upon. If my hope is in anything other than God, such as my works, my sacraments, my ritual, my observing feasts days, then it’s assuredly a “hope so” hope.
Good Fella:
Unfortunately Calvin believed, unlike John, that the elect ‘will unfailingly persevere’ to the end because of an imputation of grace that co-opts our free will. God has eternally determined who will actually be saved by no merit on the recipient’s part. The grace the elect receive can never be lost: “Once saved, always saved.”
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the CC teaches OSAS with respect to those elect to eternal blessedness.

If you have no problem with the CC teaching OSAS, why do have a problem with Calvin teaching it? That’s inconsistent.
Good Fella:
One of the seven deadly sins against the Holy Spirit is the “presumption of saving yourself without merit”.
Where would I find this listing of the 7 deadly sins that states presumption of saving yourself without merit, is one them?
Good Fella:
We find a strange twist in Calvin’s doctrine: the presumption of being saved without merit. Our good deeds play no role in the economy of our salvation, since we are corrupt to the core by the decree of Almighty God. Calvin’s false teaching amounts to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, for THE ELECT EXPECT TO BE SAVED WITHOUT DESERVING TO BE.
Ah yes—one must deserve to be saved. (Works/righteousness is revealed in the heart again, IMO).**Romans 5:6

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**How is it that ungodly deserve to be saved??

And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
 
Romans 5:6

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.How is it that ungodly deserve to be saved??
You’ve missed the boat. The answer is we didn’t deserve to be saved. God did not owe us salvation since we are creatures. His Salvivic actions are from Love.
 
You’ve missed the boat. The answer is we didn’t deserve to be saved. God did not owe us salvation since we are creatures. His Salvivic actions are from Love.
I haven’t missed any boat, my friend; however, thanks for your opinion. 🙂
 
Originally Posted by sandusky
*That’s the pillar and foundation of the Arminian position with respect to creation—*the glorious and inviolable will of the creature trumps the will of the creator.

I knew Arminian theology was heretical, but that clarifies it for me, thanks.
For what it is worth to those who, like me, are blissfully uninformed about this Calvinist squabble, here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about Arminianism:
“They (the Remonstrants) declared themselves opposed to the following doctrines: (1) Predestination in its defined form; as if God by an eternal and irrevocable decision had destined men, some to eternal bliss, others to eternal damnation, without any other law than His own pleasure. On the contrary, they thought that God by the same resolution wished to make all believers in Christ who persisted in their belief to the end blessed in Christ, and for His sake would only condemn the unconverted and unbelieving. (2) The doctrine of election according to which the chosen were counted as necessarily and unavoidably blessed and the outcasts necessarily and unavoidably lost. They urged the milder doctrine that Christ had died for all men, and that believers were only chosen in so far as they enjoyed he forgiveness of sins. (3) The doctrine that Christ died for the elect alone to make them blessed and no one else, ordained as mediator; on the contrary, they urged the possibility of salvation for others not elect. (4) The doctrine that the grace of God affects the elect only, while the reprobates cannot participate in this through their conversion, but only through their own strength. On the other hand, they, the ‘Remonstrants’, a name they received later from this, their ‘Remonstrance’, hold that man ‘has no saving belief in himself, nor out of the force of his free-will’, if he lives in sin, but that it is necessary that ‘he be born again from God in Christ by means of His Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding and affection, or will and all strength’, since without grace man cannot resist sin, although he cannot be counted as irresistible to grace. (5) The doctrine that he who had once attained true saving grace can never lose it and be wholly debased. They held, on the contrary, that whoever had received Christ’s quickening spirit had thereby a strong weapon against Satan, sin, the world, and his own flesh, although they would not decide at the time without further investigation – later they adopted this too – whether he could not lose this power ‘forsaking the beginning of his being, Christ.’”
Chuck
 
Several points come to mind; first, I stated in an earlier post to you that your error stems from, IMHO, a wrong view of God. Logically, it follows that if your starting point is in error, the rest of what you believe, being built on the first error is also error.😃 Way to funny, you of all people stating this beauty. Watch out while your wrestling with that plank, you’ll put your eye out.

Secondly, I stated in an earlier post to you, perhaps you missed it, that:God’s foreknowledge is His knowledge of all actual things before they exist. His foreknowledge is made certain, not by foresight, but by divine decree by which He determined all existing things. His foreknowledge is equated with His counsel (plan or decree).Therefore, I can say with certainty that God decreed the Fall. Brilliant! Did God decree the fall a certain angel as well?Isaiah 46:9-10

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;God, as creator, has declared what will come to pass.Matthew 26:24

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed
!..”

Luke 22:22

“For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed
!”God is absolutely sovereign in what will come to pass, and man is absolutely responsible for his own actions. Your logic is begining to fail you. You claim that there is no “free will” for man that God is sovereign. Then claim that man is responsible for his own actions. Doesn’t add up.

That’s biblical truth. IYHO

Ps 115:3 states, ”…our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Therefore, one must conclude that the Fall of Adam, and its casting into sin of the human race, is, at the very least, pleasing to God. Or your understanding is flawed. Your are right, either your wrong or God is. Your pick.

John also records the prayer of the Lord in his Gospel, chapter 17, and quotes Jesus saying:John 17:9****9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

**20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; **

**21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.**If Jesus is the savior of the entire world, how is it that He doesn’t pray for the Father’s care of the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father, both at that time, and in the future? Flawed from your standpoint. Why would Christ pray for those in the future if he believed as you do.

There is worldly hope: I hope so, and there is biblical hope: a confident expectation in God with the nuance of counting upon. If my hope is in anything other than God, such as my works, my sacraments, my ritual, my observing feasts days, then it’s assuredly a “hope so” hope. Or that your faith is a saving faith. Something you as a mere human can’t know. Sorry about your luck and all.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the CC teaches OSAS with respect to those elect to eternal blessedness.

If you have no problem with the CC teaching OSAS, why do have a problem with Calvin teaching it? That’s inconsistent. Calvin’s teaching is flawed. His teachings are from himself not of God as it is with Christ’s Church.

Where would I find this listing of the 7 deadly sins that states presumption of saving yourself without merit, is one them?Pretending to know only what God can know, thus claiming the title of a god for yourself. 1st commandment.

Ah yes—one must deserve to be saved. (Works/righteousness is revealed in the heart again, IMO).**Romans 5:6 ****For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.**How is it that ungodly deserve to be saved??

And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Why call on sinners, why if they are predestined to hell. If you’ve decided that your saved now, are you now considered righteous or are you still a sinner. Wait I already know the answer to that. Your not healthy. When will you be? That’s right at the time of judgement.
 
Pax, you brushed off my post to you on positional sanctification, that is, the objective, divinely revealed truths of a true believer’s new identity in the risen Christ.

…
QUOTE]

Of course I brushed off this idea of positional sanctification versus practical sanctification. It is ridiculous and it is anything but divinely revealed. Not a word of scripture speaks of sanctification in this fashion, and none of the verses that you have used to establish this idea say anything about it. The best thing you can do is abandoned this idea which is not found in scripture. This is simply a protestant invention.
 
Where in that passage is God’s foreknowledge, predestination to grace, His calling and justification mentioned?
It amazes me that you would expect the first century Hebrew writers to use your favorite theological buzzwords. Do you really believe that Jesus has nothing of value to say about salvation otherwise?
How do you square the above passage with Jesus saying that His sheep will never perish (Jn 10)? How do you square the above passage with the fact that it’s the Father’s will that of all those given by Him to the Son that the Son should lose none (Jn 6)?
Easy. The sovereign God of the universe chooses to allow His created beings to reject Him.

“… but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves…” Luke 7:30
This is answered quite adequately by Paul:Phil 3:8 "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,

To the contrary faith is enough and grace is sufficient. Works that follow may gain a reward, but salvation is gifted, through faith, unmerited and undeserved in any way.
We may be having a semantics problem. The faith that Paul writes about is an obedient faith. It is a faith that works. Such a faith does result in righteousness when mixed with grace.

Salvation is unmerited, undeserved, and gifted, but salvation is not something that happens at one point in time, for all time.
God’s goodness and love for us is demonstrated in the cross - the work of God through which divine salvation is wrought. Yours is simply to believe it, as Paul did and he received the righteousness which comes from God “on the basis of FAITH” (alone).
Salvation that is based on faith, a faith that works, produces fruit. the two are not separate from each other.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top