Faith Alone

[SyCarl]

We know that Abraham was saved by faith and works because scripture tells us so. In fact, scripture gives us three examples of Abraham having saving faith. The following should be helpful:

In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Please note that Abraham did in fact have the promised descendents, but he had to wait a very long time for God to fulfill this promise. The apostle Paul says " He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb."[Rom 4:19]

James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as rightousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

Again, Abraham had faith and was justified, but he followed up on God’s commands and was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. All of these examples are of faith and works. This is the living, saving faith required of us all in order to receive the free gift of salvation. If it were not for the work of Christ and the grace of God in Abraham, all of what Abraham had done would be for not. All of the power, grace, and glory go to God.

I think that a key difference is what is meant by faith. In some places it can mean just an intellectual belief. That is the faith of the demons. This is not what most Protestants would define as faith alone. The Bible tells us what faith is.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
(Hebrews 11:1 NASB)

Earlier posts in this thread referred to being saved by hope. We see here that hope can be seen as part of faith. The hope and trust that are included in faith is what makes a saving faith.

Abraham did do works. However, the timing of the works show that they were the result of his faith as defined above. The works showed his faith. This is why I think that we are closer than many think because of what is included in faith.

The church fathers also struggled with the apparent differences between Paul and James. An number concluded that James is talking about works showing faith or as evidence of faith.

Faith is shown by deeds like the features of the face in a mirror.-Symeon the New Theologian (Discourses 29.4, Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)

Good works are witnesses to the Christian faith, otherwise a Christian cannot prove that he has that faith. If he cannot prove it, it must be considered complete nonexistent.-Salvian the Presbyter (On the Goverance of God 4.2 Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 30.)

Abraham had such a vibrant faith in God that he was ready to do whatever God wanted him to. This is why his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness, and it was in order that we might know the full meaning of this that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. It was by his perfect accomplishment of God’s command that the faith which he had in his heart was shown to be perfect. .-Bede (Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 32.)

The works mentioned here are works of faith. No one can have perfect works unless he has faith, but many have perfect faith without works, since they do not always have time to do them.-Bede (Concerning the Epistle of James) (Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 33.)

**If someone does not show by his deeds that he believes in God, **his profession of faith is worthless. For it is not the one who just says that he is the Lord’s who is a believer, but the one who loves the Lord so much that he is prepared to risk even death because of his faith in Him.-Andreas (Catena, Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament XI: James, 1-2Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 28.)

My reason for adherring to faith alone is to emphasize that while we must do good works if we can, they do not merit anything.

 

[Pax]

I think that a key difference is what is meant by faith. In some places it can mean just an intellectual belief. That is the faith of the demons. This is not what most Protestants would define as faith alone. The Bible tells us what faith is.

Earlier posts in this thread referred to being saved by hope. We see here that hope can be seen as part of faith. The hope and trust that are included in faith is what makes a saving faith.

Abraham did do works. However, the timing of the works show that they were the result of his faith as defined above. The works showed his faith. This is why I think that we are closer than many think because of what is included in faith.

The church fathers also struggled with the apparent differences between Paul and James. An number concluded that James is talking about works showing faith or as evidence of faith.

My reason for adherring to faith alone is to emphasize that while we must do good works if we can, they do not merit anything.

I would say that you are partially correct in your statements. It is true that our good works are the “result” of faith. It is important, however, to recognize that our good works are the result of grace. Eph 2:10 says that “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Not only is the grace of justification, the gift of faith, and our creation in Christ Jesus for good works a product of God’s work in us, but the works themselves were prepared by the Father in advance of our justification that we should walk in them.

I would also agree that good works are certainly an evidence of saving faith, but I think this is an outcome of the “results” of God’s grace and workmanship within us. The evidence is secondary to everything else.

I appreciate your recognition of the relationship of “hope” to both faith and salvation.

I would disagree with you concerning works not meriting anything. Go back to my discussion on Abraham…I think that the three examples of Abraham’s “living” faith actions and the outcomes address that issue. I would also refer you to the following passage of scripture:

Matt 19: 27-29
Then Peter said in reply, “Look, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, **you who have followed me **will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life.

I hope this helps.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I’m going to keep asking this question until someone answers it because I think it gets to the heart of the question of this thread:

Can man cooperate with God in a God willed work?

 

[Pax]

Jerry…is it okay if I give the answer?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Yes!

 

[Pax]

Yes!!!

 

[moondweller]

This does not answer what I said in my post.

I brought you back to the context of that verse, Pax. Your post went babbling off in another direction and completely ignored it. Paul’s point is that we “have been saved” “in hope” of the yet, not seen, redemption of our physical bodies. Our complete glorification with Christ. And “with perseverance” we who have the “first fruit of the Spirit” eagerly wait for it." It’s ours! It’s part and parcel to our salvation. Guaranteed!

 

[Pax]

You’ve missed the point of what was actually said about hope, trust, and faith. Your response was simply not on task.

 

[Pax]

You missed the point of my post if you think your statements are on task. Anyway, I’ve spent enough time on the topic of hope, trust, and faith as they apply to salvation. I’ll simply leave it as it is.

 

[Pax]

I brought you back to the context of that verse, Pax. Your post went babbling off in another direction and completely ignored it. Paul’s point is that we “have been saved” “in hope” of the yet, not seen, redemption of our physical bodies. Our complete glorification with Christ. And “with perseverance” we who have the “first fruit of the Spirit” eagerly wait for it." It’s ours! It’s part and parcel to our salvation. Guaranteed!

Sorry for babbling, but I stand by my post as written.

 

[ryanoneil]

Short answer: baptizo means “immersion.”

Contextually, this baptizo of which Peter speaks is baptism into Christ; Peter is not referring to water baptism.

Yes he is refering to water baptism, which is baptism into Christ.

Peter makes that clear when he says, “it is not the removal of dirt from the body…”

Water baptism would certainly remove dirt from the body; therefore, water baptism is not what’s being presented.

Baptism saves as well as circumcision saves—not at all.Mark 16:16
That logic is flawed. He is talking about the soul

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

We see from the above verse that salvation is predicated upon belief, and not water baptism.

The disbelieving one may well be baptized; however, his baptism cannot save him from the condemnation of his unbelief.

You’re emotionally affected by the phrase “baptism now saves you,” and, IMHO, that blinds you to the truth that baptism, indeed, cannot save anyone.

Scripture says baptism saves. If you don’t believe this next one speaks of Baptism I’ll find more scripture for you.

But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

Baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ.

Of course faith is needed. I don’t deny that for one second, but Scripture is clear. These baptized people are saved. They must endure to the end, but at that point they are saved. This gets right back to the issue of people losing their salvation.

Neither can the act of baptism be salvific in and of itself, since there are scriptural examples of individuals being baptized by the apostles, yet being declared to be perishing because their heart was not right with God (cf. The Story of Simon Magus, Acts 8:9-24).

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Read the rest of the chapter. Sanctified and justified people can go back to their old ways and lose their salvation.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[moondweller]

This means that you will live a life in Christ and be led by the Spirit. You will no longer live in the flesh which leads to death.

Actually, Paul presents it far more objectively when speaking of believers:Rom 8:9 “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

Likewise, you ignored the qualifier that says that the just shall live by faith.

Actually, Pax, there’s no qualifier there, but you ignored the identifier: “the just.” It is the “just,” the “righteous,” that are to live BY FAITH. Those who have been justified by faith, like their father Abraham, continue to walk by faith.Rom 3:21 "But now apart from law (no definite article, the principle of law: merit) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift (how?) by His grace (through what means? Works? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

{This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed (pre-cross); for the demonstration, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" (no definite article). If a man is justified by faith apart from the principle of law (anything that he must do in order to merit it), then faith is alone. Paul sums it up real nicely:Rom 4:14-16 “For if those who are of law (the principle of law) are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for law brings about wrath, but where there is no law (i.e., only grace), there also is no violation. For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (cf. Gal. 3:29),”
Most definitely Paul’s gospel is faith alone.

 

[clmowry]

Everytime I read stuff like this I always ask the same question. Have you read the rest of the stuff these same people happen to say about faith and works? Cherry picking out of the context of their work proves nothing.

I don’t know, it seems to be “proof” that the one doing so has an agenda other than sharing the truth of the gospel.

Chuck

 

[guanophore]

If a man is justified by faith apart from the principle of law (anything that he must do in order to merit it), then faith is alone. Paul sums it up real nicely:Rom 4:14-16 “For if those who are of law (the principle of law) are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for law brings about wrath, but where there is no law (i.e., only grace), there also is no violation. For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (cf. Gal. 3:29),”
Most definitely Paul’s gospel is faith alone.

Cathocism does NOT teach that people can do anything to merit saving grace, which comes from God. However, having received this grace by faith, we are then to live a life worthy of the calling to which we are called. I am curious about your and sandusky’s take on this:

“Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation.” 2 Peter 3:14-15

What does the Apostle mean by “strive”? How can any human effort enable us to be found by Christ at peace, without spot or blemish? If we are saved once and for all time permanently, why strive at all? If we are covered by Jesus blood for all sins past, present, and future, why “strive” to be found without spot or blemish? How can the striving of a man add anything to the blood of Christ?

 

[Jason_W]

The only place in the Bible that uses the term faith alone is James 2:24 " You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." and James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

the Catholic church teaches we are saved by Grace alone. and that it is faith completed by works that justifies us. works alone can do nothing, or we could boast that we have earned our own salvation simply by what we do. and faith alone is indeed dead, because if you say you have faith but do nothing to show your faith or produce fruit worthy of your faith then what good is it?

and scripture is clear whether jew or gentile that we can loose our salvation. Romans 11: 16-23
If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness * of the olive tree, 18 do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20* That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

provided you continue in his kindness;otherwise you too will be cut off.

how can you continue in his kindness if it is not by some work or something we do through our faith.?

 

[sandusky]

ryanoneil:

Yes he is refering to water baptism, which is baptism into Christ.

He is not referring to water baptism, but a baptism which is not the removal of dirt from the body. Water baptism does remove dirt from the body—this is as difficult as you make it.

Israel was immersed into Moses in the same way Peter speaks of immersion into Christ**1 Corinthians 10:2

…and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea…**That is not an external baptism; it is not the removal of dirt from the body, but an identification with Moses.

ryanoneil:

That logic is flawed. He is talking about the soul

It’s not a question of logic, but of the writer’s choice of words.

In the passage Peter is talking about the sarx, or “flesh;” he is not talking about the psuche, or “soul,” as you contend; therefore, you are incorrect because you refuse to take the writer’s words in their simple sense.

You are wanting to allegorize what Peter says, as that is the only way that you can make it fit your soteriology. I believe it was Augustine who cited a rule concerning allegory: …figures and allegory prove nothing.

ryanoneil:

Scripture says baptism saves. If you don’t believe this next one speaks of Baptism I’ll find more scripture for you.

I’ve read the scripture, cover to cover, many, many, many times in my life as a regenerate Christian, and have yet to find any scripture that states that water baptism is the agent of salvation.

The agent of salvation is clearly stated in the passage from Titus that you cite:**Titus 3:5-7

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.**The agent of regeneration and renewing is identified above as the HS and not the baptismal font.**Ephesians 2:1, 4, 5

…you were dead…But God, being rich in mercy…made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)…**That’s a pre-baptismal event of God; otherwise, how would one even know to be water baptized?

ryanoneil:

Baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ.

I agree, regeneration is not symbolic; it is, however, a pre-water-baptism event; how else could one know to be baptized (repent, believe, be baptized in Christ’s name)?

Furthermore, one does not become justified by baptism, but by faith (cf Rom 4:3, 10-12).

ryanoneil:

Of course faith is needed. I don’t deny that for one second, but Scripture is clear. These baptized people are saved. They must endure to the end, but at that point they are saved. This gets right back to the issue of people losing their salvation.

Baptism does not save (cf Mk 16:16), but faith…belief.

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Read the rest of the chapter. Sanctified and justified people can go back to their old ways and lose their salvation.

IMO, Catholics forget the parable of the wheat, and the tares, and the presence of each in Christ’s Church.

I’ll restate what I said in an earlier post on this thread:

The epistle you cite is addressed to the gathered church, which contains both believers, and unbelievers.

Because of that, those who preach God’s word must announce both the promises of God, and His warnings, as they do not have the ability to see into the hearts of men thereby identifying true saving faith.

The work of the Spirit causes the promises to be joyfully embraced in the heart of the believer. The warnings are used by God both to exhort the saved, and to pronounce judgment on the hypocrites.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Actually, Paul presents it far more objectively when speaking of believers:
If a man is justified by faith apart from the principle of law (anything that he must do in order to merit it), then faith is alone. Paul sums it up real nicely:Most definitely Paul’s gospel is faith alone.

Did You used to post here under a different name?

 

[Jason_W]

Baptism does not save (cf Mk 16:16), but faith…belief.

:

Matt 16:16 states He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

how do you get that baptism does not save? it just doesnt say that. it says he who believes and is baptized will be saved. if baptism did not save then it should read " he who believes is saved." by faith we believe, and we our completing our faith by working out our salvation which begins at baptism.

1 Peter 3:19-21 " when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ "

We see Noah and his family as a prefigurment to baptism. when it says they were saved through water. that is actual water, not that the water saved them, but it was through the water that God extended his mercy and grace. the water covered the multitudes who were wicked and evil and would not repent, just as baptism covers original sin and personal sin. but it is indeed through water.The same can be said with the Hebrews who crosed the red sea. The red sea is real and it was through real water they were baptized into Moses. and the water covered those who would try to lay siege to them and keep them in bondage. just as our baptism covers the sin that would try to keep us in bondage.

It cleary states baptism now SAVES you. Peter is stating that this baptism is not like taking a bath or just getting clean. when we are baptized with water its not just an outward cleaning, but more importantly an inward one. One that purifies the soul. nevertheless it is indeed through water that we celebrate this sacrement.

 

[sandusky]

Matt 16:16 states He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

how do you get that baptism does not save? it just doesnt say that. it says he who believes and is baptized will be saved. if baptism did not save then it should read " he who believes is saved." by faith we believe, and we our completing our faith by working out our salvation which begins at baptism.

1 Peter 3:19-21 " when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ "

We see Noah and his family as a prefigurment to baptism. when it says they were saved through water. that is actual water, not that the water saved them, but it was through the water that God extended his mercy and grace. the water covered the multitudes who were wicked and evil and would not repent, just as baptism covers original sin and personal sin. but it is indeed through water.The same can be said with the Hebrews who crosed the red sea. The red sea is real and it was through real water they were baptized into Moses. and the water covered those who would try to lay siege to them and keep them in bondage. just as our baptism covers the sin that would try to keep us in bondage.

It cleary states baptism now SAVES you. Peter is stating that this baptism is not like taking a bath or just getting clean. when we are baptized with water its not just an outward cleaning, but more importantly an inward one. One that purifies the soul. nevertheless it is indeed through water that we celebrate this sacrement.

I’ve answered your objections in other posts. Go back about a week in the thread and read forward; you should find them.

 

[Pax]

Explain to me just how it is that you find no qualifiers in Paul’s statement in Romans 1:17. First of all you added a qualifier that isn’t in the text and then neglected a qualifier that is in the text. You added the qualifier “alone.” Likewise, you ignored the qualifier that says that the just shall live by faith.

This means that you will live a life in Christ and be led by the Spirit. You will no longer live in the flesh which leads to death. The wages of sin is death. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.”[Romans 6:22]

None of this means “faith alone” as you suggest.

Actually, Paul presents it far more objectively when speaking of believers:Rom 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."Actually, Pax, there’s no qualifier there, but you ignored the identifier: “the just.” It is the “just,” the “righteous,” that are to live BY FAITH. Those who have been justified by faith, like their father Abraham, continue to walk by faith.Rom 3:21 "But now apart from law (no definite article, the principle of law: merit) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift (how?) by His grace (through what means? Works? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

{This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed (pre-cross); for the demonstration, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law" (no definite article). If a man is justified by faith apart from the principle of law (anything that he must do in order to merit it), then faith is alone. Paul sums it up real nicely:Rom 4:14-16 “For if those who are of law (the principle of law) are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for law brings about wrath, but where there is no law (i.e., only grace), there also is no violation. For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (cf. Gal. 3:29),”
Most definitely Paul’s gospel is faith alone.

Just one question.

Is it necessary for us to love God in order to be saved?

A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice.