Faith Alone

  • Thread starter Thread starter Timmy_Z
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
moondweller,

I want to thank you for answering honestly and not avoiding the question/issue. It is sometimes a little like “pulling teeth” to get some folks to give a straight answer to this inquiry. Your courteous and straight forward response is appreciated.

That having been said, it is now time to exam the issue by way of logic and scripture. Please be advised that it makes sense that we must first have faith in God in order to love God. We cannot love God if we do not believe in God. No one will suggest that we are saved by love “alone.” Likewise, I will show that it is also improper to suggest that we are saved by faith “alone”, because of what scripture says about love of God.

The following passages are very instructive.
1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

Relative to this idea of being known by God we read many things in scripture that inform us of the importance of being known by God. In Hosea 11:12 it says, "Ephraim has encompassed me with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit; but Judah is still known by God, and is faithful to the Holy One. This passage shows the relationship of being “known by God” and things that we do. We are either sinful(i.e. we turn from God} or we are faithful and we are known by God. Likewise, we must love God to be known by God.

In 1 John 4:7-8 we read the following:
“Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.” In verse 13 John says that God has given us “his own Spirit,” and he goes on in verse 16 to say “God is love.”

From these verses we learn some very important things about salvation. We know that those that are saved are “born again in water and Spirit.” We know that God is love. We know that those that are saved are given the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the essence of God which is love. Without this Spirit of love within us and our loving God we are clearly not saved.

This is brought home by 1John 4:16-18 which says,

“God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.”

Without the love of God perfected in us there is no reason for confidence on the day of judgment.

Jesus tells us, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” The truth is a person and that person is Jesus. In light of this it is important to look at 2 Thess 2:10. In this verse we are told this:

“…and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”

This passage tells us that if we do not love Jesus, who is the truth, we will not be saved. Everything else is a deception, and those that follow a deception and do not love the truth will perish.

Paul’s language gets even stronger and more pointed when he says, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!”[1 Cor 16:22]

The apostle James also says many important things about love relative to eternal life. He says "Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and** will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him**.[James 1:12-15]

In James 2:5 the apostle goes on to ask a rhetorical question by saying, “Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?”

Jesus made the importance of loving God for purposes of eternal life abundantly clear in Luke 10:25-37 where we read this:

“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

I hope these passages are helpful in showing the necessity of our loving God as part of our salvation.
Pax, if you would have asked me if the regenerate love God, I would have answered yes. But you didn’t. You asked if it is necessary for us to love God in order to be saved? That’s a totally different question, and the answer is still no. And that’s not based on my own personal opinion, that’s according to divine revelation. God saves “by grace through faith.” Always has, always will. Why can’t you comprehend that?
 
This is the weirdest explanation of this passage that I have ever seen and it is contrary to scripture. I have already shown the necessity of love which you are now calling “a warm heart.” I will now show by scripture the necessity of endurance/perseverence which you now deny as well.

Scripture has this to say about endurance/perseverence:

Luke 21:19
By your endurance you will gain your souls.

Heb 10:36
For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Matt 24 :12-13
And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Love and endurance are not the only other necessities for salvation. We must also conquer sin by grace. This is made especially clear in the book of Revelation which says the following:

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **To him who conquers **I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **He who conquers **shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **To him who conquers **I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

Rev 2:26-29 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. **He who conquers **shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-13 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:21-22 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 12:11 **And they have conquered him **by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Rev 21:7-8 **He who conquers **shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

I hope this helps.
Pax, my NASB translates it “overcomes.” Here’s what John has to say about overcoming:1 John 5:4 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.The regenerate, those “born of God,” overcome the world by their faith in Christ. It’s really quite simple my friend. God has made it so.
 
The Holy Spirit sure is wordy.

You would think that since every verse in the bible “really” means “by grace through faith” He could have kept the whole thing to one page.

All thay stuff about Hope and Charity and keeping My commandments that “realy” means “by grace through faith” is just so unnecessay and confusing.

Don’ ya think.

Chuck
 
Pax, if you would have asked me if the regenerate love God, I would have answered yes. But you didn’t. You asked if it is necessary for us to love God in order to be saved? That’s a totally different question, and the answer is still no. And that’s not based on my own personal opinion, that’s according to divine revelation. God saves “by grace through faith.” Always has, always will. Why can’t you comprehend that?
You are ignoring the scriptures that I provided that show that love of God is essential to eternal life. You are letting your doctrine govern you rather than scripture. The question was posed correctly and the scriptures I provided give an answer that is contrary to your beliefs.
 
Pax, my NASB translates it “overcomes.” Here’s what John has to say about overcoming:1 John 5:4 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.The regenerate, those “born of God,” overcome the world by their faith in Christ. It’s really quite simple my friend. God has made it so.
Your quibbling is meaningless. Most English versions use the word conquer, but overcome is a synonym that is also acceptable. In any event, the scriptures make it clear that you must overcome and conquer evil to be saved. It is as simple as that. Once again, you are allowing your doctrine to be an eisegetical tool that distorts the clear message about conquering which is repeated over and over in the Book of Revelation relative to salvation. These repetitions say nothing of faith, because the emphasis is on another ingredient for salvation. That ingredient once again, denies sola fide. Moreover, nowhere in scripture does it say that we are saved by “faith alone” but scripture clearly says in James 2 that we are “not saved by faith alone.”
 
Your quibbling is meaningless. Most English versions use the word conquer, but overcome is a synonym that is also acceptable. In any event, the scriptures make it clear that you must overcome and conquer evil to be saved. It is as simple as that. Once again, you are allowing your doctrine to be an eisegetical tool that distorts the clear message about conquering which is repeated over and over in the Book of Revelation relative to salvation. These repetitions say nothing of faith, because the emphasis is on another ingredient for salvation. That ingredient once again, denies sola fide. Moreover, nowhere in scripture does it say that we are saved by “faith alone” but scripture clearly says in James 2 that we are “not saved by faith alone.”
How much have you loved and conquered toward your salvation today, Pax? Is there a divine scorecard to which you have access? Is there a way to measure the quality of each? Or does God, in the end, grade on a curve?
 
How much have you loved and conquered toward your salvation today, Pax? Is there a divine scorecard to which you have access? Is there a way to measure the quality of each? Or does God, in the end, grade on a curve?
There it is!

The implication that “we” full members of Christ’s Church believe that we are saved by our own merit. Called it.

How does this already corrected fallacy change the matter at hand? That’s right, it doesn’t!

Try responding again to the question with something that is true and relevant to the question this time.
 
The Holy Spirit sure is wordy.

You would think that since every verse in the bible “really” means “by grace through faith” He could have kept the whole thing to one page.

All thay stuff about Hope and Charity and keeping My commandments that “realy” means “by grace through faith” is just so unnecessay and confusing.

Don’ ya think.

Chuck
It’s not confusing when one is taught by the Spirit.
 
It’s not confusing when one is taught by the Spirit.
Why is it various Protestants get taught different interpretations on the same verse/chapter in the Bible. If three get a different teaching it must mean the Holy Spirit lied to two of them.
 
Why is it various Protestants get taught different interpretations on the same verse/chapter in the Bible. If three get a different teaching it must mean the Holy Spirit lied to two of them.
The Holy Spirit as liar underlies a bad theology, and a bad anthropology.

That’s not magisterial teaching; is it? 🙂
 
Pax, you asked if it is necessary for us to love God in order to be saved? That’s a totally different question, and the answer is still no. And that’s not based on my own personal opinion, that’s according to divine revelation. God saves “by grace through faith.” Always has, always will. Why can’t you comprehend that?
I find what you say nothing but your own opinion, for it contradicts Scripture. Without love there is no true faith in God. Believing in Christ and in the merits of his Passion alone are not formally sufficient for our salvation. We must obey the will of God and keep his commandments out of love of Him and our neighbour to reach heaven. Refusing to give our love amounts to rejecting God’s grace which is needed in order for us to regain, nurture, and perfect our friendship with God in the Spirit of Christ. Our relationship with the Father, however imperfect and striving for completion, must emulate that which exists between the Father and the Son. This is the essence of our adoption as sons of God and the meaning of true faith. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments, " meaning we must obey out of sincere love of God and not merely out of fear of eternal damnation or the misguided intention of paying off a debt, or making God indebted to us.

You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working (expressing itself) through love. {Gal 5: 4-6}

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I have not love, I am a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and IF I HAVE ALL FAITH, so as to remove mountains, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I AM NOTHING…So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. {1 Cor 13}

We are not made righteous by simply observing the law for its own impersonal sake, thereby attempting to flatter God. We pursue righteousness before God through faith in Christ - the apprehension and acceptance of his teachings concerning what it means to be true heirs of the kingdom of heaven (Rom 9: 31-32). Thus Paul does not mean we are justified by faith alone - apart from good works as opposed to the works of the law. We must not confuse the works of the law with ‘good works’, works of mercy and charity which accompany true faith (Jas 2: 24). Our justification is no longer based on the works of the law, but on the grace of Christ which is available to all of us - Jew and Gentile (Rom 11: 6-11; Eph 2: 8-9). The works of the Mosaic law in themselves are no longer necessary because Christ now saves ( Rom 15: 9-12). Hence, initially we are justified by faith, but this faith is perfected and completed by ‘good works’ which necessarily accompany it in a filial spirit of love and obedience to God in his grace and in accord with Christ’s commandments of love. ( 2 Cor 10: 15).

We are back to Paul’s letter to the Galatians. It is wrong to disassociate faith and good works. The Scriptures do not divorce faith from good works based on love (Eph 3: 17; 1 Thess 3:6, 12-13; 2 Thess 1:3; 1 Jn 3:23). Faith is a gratuitous gift by the grace of God and is not earned or merited by anything good we may do at any stage of our faith, but God desires our sincere filial response to his grace for the completion and perfection of our faith. And we should be aware that good works are a ‘cause’ and not just an ‘effect’ of our justification, as Protestants mistakenly believe - a kind of window dressing. Our thoughtful apprehension of faith must be united with free human action or else the whole notion of love and obedience is nothing but flotsam on water. Faith and works distinctively and mutually go together hand and hand. Faith does not qualify our good works, just as our faith is not earned by anything we may do apart from the free gift of God’s grace (Jas 1: 22-25; 2:17, 26; 2:18; Rom 2:13).

“We add, also, and say, ‘Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth;’ not that God should do what He wills, but that we may be able to do what God wills. For who resists God, that I He may not do what He wills (I-He 😉 )? But since we are hindered by the devil from obeying with our thought and deed God’s will in all things, we pray and ask that God’s will may be done in us; and that it may be done in us we have need of God’s good will, that is of his help and protection, since no one is strong in his own strength, but he is safe by the grace and mercy of God.”
Cyprian (A.D. 252)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
The Holy Spirit as liar underlies a bad theology, and a bad anthropology.

That’s not magisterial teaching; is it? 🙂
Thistle’s point is just that - the Holy Spirit is not a liar. So Protestants are in no position to claim that the Spirit of truth is with them, since Protestantism is a conflict of essential doctrines. Wolves scatter sheep, Jesus tells us.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Good Fella:
Thistle’s point is just that - the Holy Spirit is not a liar. So Protestants are in no position to claim that the Spirit of truth is with them, since Protestantism is a conflict of essential doctrines. Wolves scatter sheep, Jesus tells us.
Essential doctrines? You mean such as this statement from Ineffabilis Deus concerning rejection of the ”essential doctrine” of the Immaculate Conception of Mary?**Hence, if anyone shall dare—which God forbid!—to think otherwise than as has been defined by us [that Mary was immaculately conceived], let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.**We all know what shipwreck of faith means to the RC.

Where in Scripture is this “essential doctrine” taught? Book, chapter, verse, please?
 
Faith Alone taught? Book, chapter, verse, please?😉
You’re avoiding my question, Sean.

I’ve supported faith alone for you earlier on this thread, and provided from a list compiled by Catholic historian Robert Fitzmyer, the ECFs through church history who have said the same. 😉

Are you able to supply biblical proof the immaculate conception of Mary, or not? :cool:
 
You’re avoiding my question, Sean.

I’ve supported faith alone for you earlier on this thread, and provided from a list compiled by Catholic historian Robert Fitzmyer, the ECFs through church history who have said the same. 😉

Are you able to supply biblical proof the immaculate conception of Mary, or not? :cool:
Luke 1:28! :rolleyes:

Your free will may guide you to reject that proof. After all, all struggle in faith in some fashion from time to time.

You are avoiding the topic Sandy. The topic is faith alone. I can’t blame you for wanting to change the subject, I guess.

You’ve supported what you think to be true with your listed scriptures and how they should point to your opinion, but nothing has been really been proven to be Scriptural Truth because your only authority to teach scripture comes from yourself, and that is sort of self defeating in a discussion here.
 
You’re avoiding my question, Sean.

I’ve supported faith alone for you earlier on this thread, and provided from a list compiled by Catholic historian Robert Fitzmyer, the ECFs through church history who have said the same. 😉

Are you able to supply biblical proof the immaculate conception of Mary, or not? :cool:
You have more dance moves than a Russian ballet. It seems you dance around every question that is a challenge to you. You’ve offered no positive biblical proof to faith alone that hasn’t been refuted in this thread. When you’re backed into a corner you then reach for extrabiblical sources which is odd for the sola scripture argument. Either you’re position is biblically based or it is not. It can’t be both as seen best for your convenience. Now you’re reaching into the desparation bag of tricks and pull out that old Calvinist stand by about Mary. This is just another diversionary tactic on your part and has nothing to do with the thread.

In the spirit of not derailing this thread, I would suggest that you read what a former Calvinist has to say on Mary. Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen is an excellent work on the subject of Mary and the Marian doctrines. And yes, he does it through the scriptures and the early church fathers. (From St. John the Apostle to Iraeneus.)
 
Sean Boyle:
Luke 1:28!

Your free will may guide you to reject that proof….
Actually, Sean, it’s my God-given ability to reason, to read (I see neither the word “immaculate,” nor the word “conception in that verse), and my God-given common sense that guides me to reject not only proof, but the doctrine as well. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top