Faith Alone

[Sean_Boyle]

(I see neither the word “immaculate,” nor the word “conception in that verse).

If your belief is based solely on biblical references, think about “faith alone” again.

Where is that verse?

Your doctrine must be implied, right?

 

[Tom]

If your belief is based solely on biblical references, think about “faith alone” again.
Where is that verse?
Your doctrine must be implied, right?

I found it!!! I found it!!! oh wait, it says NOT by faith alone… guess I’ll keep looking… James 2,24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith alone?

 

[Jason_W]

Pax, if you would have asked me if the regenerate love God, I would have answered yes. But you didn’t. You asked if it is necessary for us to love God in order to be saved? That’s a totally different question, and the answer is still no. And that’s not based on my own personal opinion, that’s according to divine revelation. God saves “by grace through faith.” Always has, always will. Why can’t you comprehend that?

By saying it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved, you are stating that those who do not love God can be saved.

Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good * with those who love him, * who are called according to his purpose.

1 Cori. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1 Cori. 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Cori. 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, * but have not love, I gain nothing.

1 Cori. 13:13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Just as James asks show me your faith without works, i ask show me your salvation without love.

 

[sandusky]

steppenwolf1218:

Now you’re reaching into the desparation bag of tricks and pull out that old Calvinist stand by about Mary. This is just another diversionary tactic on your part and has nothing to do with the thread.

ISTM that you’re unable to identify a legitimate question.

My question was in response to Good Fella’s statement that Protestantism conflicts with “essential doctrines.”

Being that a loss of salvation results from the rejection of the immaculate conception, I’d say that’s an essential doctrine, and, therefore, a legitimate question.

steppenwolf1218:

In the spirit of not derailing this thread, I would suggest that you read what a former Calvinist has to say on Mary. Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen is an excellent work on the subject of Mary and the Marian doctrines. And yes, he does it through the scriptures and the early church fathers. (From St. John the Apostle to Iraeneus.)

I don’t need to read anyone other than the official church pronouncements.

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

If your belief is based solely on biblical references, think about “faith alone” again.

Where is that verse?

Your doctrine must be implied, right?

As I said to you a few posts ago, Sean, I’ve supported faith alone for you earlier on this thread, and provided from a list compiled by Catholic historian Robert Fitzmyer, the ECFs through church history who have said the same.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

As I said to you a few posts ago, Sean, I’ve supported faith alone for you earlier on this thread, and provided from a list compiled by Catholic historian Robert Fitzmyer, the ECFs through church history who have said the same.

Lets look at the theology sorrounding “faith alone” from your point of view. That is how we have evaluated it thus far isn’t it? Thru scripture balanced of course with reason and logic Scripture is the only proof that you will accept in matters of faith and morals, Correct?

If Faith alone is a central theology taught by Christ and the apostles, why is the theology sorrounding “faith alone” implied in scripture. Why isn’t it in black and white? Such a fundamental teaching should not be subjected to logic and reasoning by an individual if the bible is the sole rule of faith. That would be a self defeating argument.

If you don’t hold the view of “saved by faith alone”, please correct me so we can move on.

 

[Jason_W]

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

This is what we hold as proof of the Immaculate conception, along with Tradition , and the Teaching Authority of the Church.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

 

[sandusky]

If you don’t hold the view of “saved by faith alone”, please correct me so we can move on.

I don’t hold to the view of being saved “by faith alone,” but by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

Now move on.

I’m only interested in Gamera’s questions/responses concerning the death of toddlers. If he has no questions/responses by the end of the day, I’ll be finished with this thread as I’ve made my point(s) concerning faith alone many times over, and I don’t care to re-visit them.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I don’t hold to the view of being saved “by faith alone,” but by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

Now move on.

I’m only interested in Gamera’s questions/responses concerning the death of toddlers. If he has no questions/responses by the end of the day, I’ll be finished with this thread as I’ve made my point(s) concerning faith alone many times over, and I don’t care to re-visit them.

Faith alone? Like a “humble faith” as pointed out by moondweller. We already have seen that an intellectual faith can’t save you from other post from the calvinist side. So the idea of faith alone entails more than simple faith from your point of view?

Interesting…

 

[Gamera]

I don’t hold to the view of being saved “by faith alone,” but by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

Now move on.

I’m only interested in Gamera’s questions/responses concerning the death of toddlers. If he has no questions/responses by the end of the day, I’ll be finished with this thread as I’ve made my point(s) concerning faith alone many times over, and I don’t care to re-visit them.

Actually I was waiting to see whether anybody else who supported “faith alone” would chime in. You’ve answered plainly that you believe toddlers can be saved and that “faith alone” doesn’t apply to them. I thought perhaps others who believed in “faith alone” might also believe in Original Sin (the doctrine that every person, regardless of personal sin, is separated from God by our first parents’ fall). To me, this seems like a critical flaw in the “faith alone” belief. Many people die before having a chance to become capable of faith. Others have mental limitations that will make them incapable of faith for life. I am interested in how people who believe in “faith alone” can belive that God made no provision for people incapable of faith yet separated from Him by Original Sin.

 

[steppenwolf1218]

ISTM that you’re unable to identify a legitimate question.

My question was in response to Good Fella’s statement that Protestantism conflicts with “essential doctrines.”

Being that a loss of salvation results from the rejection of the immaculate conception, I’d say that’s an essential doctrine, and, therefore, a legitimate question.

I don’t need to read anyone other than the official church pronouncements.

I know a legitimate question when I see one. I also know a snow job when I see one too. You’ll also take the time to read anything if you think it will back you up. You’ve proven that in this thread already from the Catholic sources you quote, some of which are not official Church writings. You’ve also misquoted the CCC several times so naturally it is expected that you do the same to the encyclical passage you provided from Pius IX. If you read the entire encyclical you would have seen the arguments given by Pope Pius IX for Mary. The traditions and teachings that he states have been kept intact are referring to the ones taught by John, Polycarp, Iraeneus and even Tertullian. Some of these were physically closer to Christ than we’ll ever hope to be in this lifetime.

Mary has been taught as being the new Eve as early as the second century in recorded writings. Ones like Polycarp were disciples of John. Where do you think they got their teachings from about Mary? Who do you think the Queen of Heaven is in Rev. 12? Israel? A goddess? Or just an illusionary image concocted by John?

It was Mary God spoke of when He told the serpent in the Garden of Eden that He would put emnities between the woman and the serpent, between her seed and his. It is Mary that John speaks of in Rev. 12. It is she who the dragon (serpent) chases in order to destroy her and her offspring. It is we who the dragon wars against because he failed in his attempt. Like I’ve stated before, we are in a spiritual warfare with Satan and he will use any means to defeat us. His favorite tactict are our own beliefs. Of course you need something special to see all of this in the Bible. It is something special called Faith.

Tell me, are you going to have the gumption to stand before Christ our Lord and tell Him that His mother was no more than a mere woman who was “lucky” enough to have been chosen and that was that? Think about it. Would God the Creator of the universe and all that is in it, who created and maintains it in perfection, planning and unity do such a slip shod job in choosing a woman to bear His only Son? Can sin exist next to God? No. Therefore can the divine nature of Christ have possibly been in the womb of a sinful woman? Mary had to be free from all sin including Original Sin. She is the new ark for the new Covenant (Christ). If she were not then she would have died at her having conceived Christ.

I do suggest you read Hail Holy Queen by Dr. Scott Hahn. He is a Church apologist as well a board member of the Fransican University in Stubenville, Ohio.

 

[moondweller]

I find what you say nothing but your own opinion, for it contradicts Scripture.

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Not contradiction there.

Without love there is no true faith in God.

Help me out GF, I’m looking for the verse that says,“For because of your love of God you have merited your salvation, but not by love alone, but as a result of sacred works…”

Believing in Christ and in the merits of his Passion alone are not formally sufficient for our salvation.

Formally?"

We must obey the will of God and keep his commandments out of love of Him and our neighbour to reach heaven.

So far on this thread RCs have stated that in order to be saved one must: (1) Have faith
(2) Be baptized
(3) Fulfill the Law by loving God and neighbor with all his heart, strength, soul and mind
(4) Perform “sacred works”
(5) Strive (persevere) until the end of the age.The last is most interesting because it would tell us that according to Catholic understanding not one person has yet been saved. Those on earth, in heaven and in “purgatory” must all continue to “strive” until the end of the age, which of course does not occur until Christ’s second advent to this earth.

We’re told that the ability to perform these “sacred works” springs from “grace” infused into the sinner’s soul and that afterwards these “sacred works” merit, – that is, they give man just claim to salvation. But wait! it doesn’t stop there, they can perform sacred works of supererogation; works that are more than necessary for their own salvation and stored away for the benefit of others. Even though Scripture reveals no such storehouse, and though a believer’s works may be rewarded by God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:11-15) not one of them are revealed to be meritorious in respect to salvation. God is never a debtor to the one who performs them (Rom. 4:1-5).

Your statement, “We must obey the will of God and keep his commandments out of love of Him and our neighbour to reach heaven,” places God in the position of being indebted to men and bound to save based on their performance. This, of course, is contrary to God’s own Word where it is written that salvation is: by grace; through faith; gifted; not as a result of works.

Christ Himself put all of man’s works in right perspective to God:Luke 17:9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done {only} that which we ought to have done.’"Hence, salvation must originate from something far greater and far more remarkable than human works (of any kind): “divine GRACE, through faith, gifted, not as a result of works” - for Christ’s sake and to His glory.

 

[moondweller]

Tell me, are you going to have the gumption to stand before Christ our Lord and tell Him that His mother was no more than a mere woman who was “lucky” enough to have been chosen and that was that?

There was no “luck” involved, but certainly she was a mere woman, else the Son did not become a man, one of us, our “kinsman” Redeemer.

 

[Pax]

How much have you loved and conquered toward your salvation today, Pax? Is there a divine scorecard to which you have access? Is there a way to measure the quality of each? Or does God, in the end, grade on a curve?

This is a question often posed by those that wish to argue sola fide. Unfortunately, it is a misplaced question without foundation, and really has no place in the discussion.

No one is claiming that there is a scorecard and no one can fathom the mind of God or the measure of his mercy. In attacking my post about the connection between “conquering” and “salvation” you are not attacking me; you are instead attacking the words of Jesus himself in the book of Revelation. Likewise, you are attacking the very words of Jesus when you attempt to belittle the relationship of loving God and salvation.

Please explain to me why it isn’t true and why Jesus is wrong in what he tells the lawyer in Luke 10:25-37. The passage says:

“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

Do you really believe that Jesus is wrong when he tells the lawyer that loving God above all things and love of neighbor will bring about the inheritance of eternal life?

The scorecard argument is a strawman. Jesus never tells us to keep a scorecard. He makes an interesting comment in the gospel when he tells Peter that we must “forgive seventy times seven times.” This is not a scorecard…this is instead a rejection of the scorecard mentality. It is a command that essentially tells us to forgive and forgive and forgive. There is no number; it is instead a way of life.

Sinfulness can be a way of life. Holiness is a way of life in the Spirit. There is no scorecard. How did I do today? Some good…some bad. When I listened to the promptings of the Holy Spirit I did fine, when I listened to myself I stumbled. I am a work in progress. God will be my judge; I depend upon His mercy. My imperfections are of me, my sanctification is of God. Everything will be accomplished by way of God’s grace, His providence, and mercy.

 

[Pax]

.Help me out GF, I’m looking for the verse that says,

"For because of your love of God you have merited your salvation, but not by love alone, but as a result of sacred works…"

…
…

Please examine your logic when you examine another’s position. To show you how ludicrous this request really is, one only needs to apply the wording your position.

Try this on for size:

“Help me out moondweller, I’m looking for the verse that says,

"For because of your faith alone in God you have **merited **your salvation, and you don’t even have to love God.”

Does your faith alone really “merit” salvation? I don’t think you believe that it does, and I would not ask you to find a verse that says that. Likewise, you should not have posed the question you did to GF.
​

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[Pax]

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"Not contradiction there.Help me out GF, I’m looking for the verse that says,"For because of your love of God you have merited your salvation, but not by love alone, but as a result of sacred works…"Formally?"So far on this thread RCs have stated that in order to be saved one must: (1) Have faith
(2) Be baptized
(3) Fulfill the Law by loving God and neighbor with all his heart, strength, soul and mind
(4) Perform “sacred works”
(5) Strive (persevere) until the end of the age.The last is most interesting because it would tell us that according to Catholic understanding not one person has yet been saved. Those on earth, in heaven and in “purgatory” must all continue to “strive” until the end of the age, which of course does not occur until Christ’s second advent to this earth.

We’re told that the ability to perform these “sacred works” springs from “grace” infused into the sinner’s soul and that afterwards these “sacred works” merit, – that is, they give man just claim to salvation. But wait! it doesn’t stop there, they can perform sacred works of supererogation; works that are more than necessary for their own salvation and stored away for the benefit of others. Even though Scripture reveals no such storehouse, and though a believer’s works may be rewarded by God at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Cor. 3:11-15) not one of them are revealed to be meritorious in respect to salvation. God is never a debtor to the one who performs them (Rom. 4:1-5).

Your statement, “We must obey the will of God and keep his commandments out of love of Him and our neighbour to reach heaven,” places God in the position of being indebted to men and bound to save based on their performance. This, of course, is contrary to God’s own Word where it is written that salvation is: by grace; through faith; gifted; not as a result of works.

Christ Himself put all of man’s works in right perspective to God:Luke 17:9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done {only} that which we ought to have done.’"Hence, salvation must originate from something far greater and far more remarkable than human works (of any kind): “divine GRACE, through faith, gifted, not as a result of works” - for Christ’s sake and to His glory.

This entire post mischaracterizes Catholic teaching. I would suggest studying the catechism of the Catholic Church in order to understand the various points that you have touched on.

Most importantly, I strongly suggest that you memorize, study, and understand Eph 2:10 and its importance in understanding and appreciating verses 8 and 9.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I don’t hold to the view of being saved “by faith alone,” but by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

Seriously, what it the purpose of adding the word “alone” to the plain and clear scriptural understanding. Isn’t scripture phased well enough on it’s own. Why add word that changes the meaning of scripture? Scripture is written for people in faith, correct? Why not allow it to stand on it’s own?

Why add “alone”?

 

[Jason_W]

I don’t hold to the view of being saved “by faith alone,” but by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone.

.

This is difficult to understand. First you say you dont believe we are saved by Faith alone. then you say but we are through Faith alone, and then add Grace alone and God alone.

by adding the word alone behind each of these you are saying there are more than one way to be saved. Or do you mean we are saved by Grace through Faith in God. because that is very close to the Catholic position. we add it is a Faith working through love.Gal. 5:6, because Faith without works is dead , James 2:26, And Faith without love is nothing. 1Cor. 13:2.

 

[Jason_W]

I believe it was luther that added the word alone to Romans 3:27.

 

[Jason_W]

Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

JasonW : " we believe that 100%, by Grace , through Faith. but not just any faith, it must have love 1Cor 13:2 and cannot be apart from good works James 2:26. "

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God [the basis of faith**

,"Not contradiction there.Help me out GF, I’m looking for the verse that says,

"For because of your love of God you have merited your salvation, but not by love alone, but as a result of sacred works.

are you trying to say by love alone? as a result of our works, thats not what the Church teaches.

Im saying love and faith and works are not seperate. and you can not have one without the other when it comes to salvation. first and foremost it is BY Gods Grace. through Faith ,Love,and works.

it is a command to love God Dut.6:5 and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

If you dont love God above all things you are not worthy. Matt.10:37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

we cannot receive the Holy Spirit without love. John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16* And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, and vs 24 If you love me, you will keep my commandments. ,

love indeed is necessary. Dan 9:4 I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, "O Lord, the great and terrible God, who keepest covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,

1Cor 8:3 But if one loves God, one is known by him

It is by love that we fullfil the law Rom. 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. and vs 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

when i speak of love i do not mean love alone , but as i first stated love,faith,and good works. they are not seperated.

1Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

2 Pet 1:5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

1 John 4:20-21 * If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot * love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.

and love is not apart from good works Rev 2:4-5 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

By Gods Grace redemtion is avialable to all by what Christ did on calvary. but it would be silly to say all are saved, therfore it must imply that we have to accept this great and free gift. as we see in scripture we must have love , and faith , and good works. neither one of these apart from the other. yes we believe by faith and yes we are justified by faith, and indeed we are saved through faith , but not faith alone.​