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csandoval
Guest
NO!
Explain John 3:16 to me.
I believe “Everlasting Life” means for ever and ever.
Maybe I missed the fine print under that verse that talks 'bout being saved by works.
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Explain John 3:16 to me.
I believe “Everlasting Life” means for ever and ever.
Maybe I missed the fine print under that verse that talks 'bout being saved by works.
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guanophore
Guest
I don’t think the two are contradictory. Jesus speaks of the Kingdom as seeds planted. At baptism, original and personal sins are wiped clean, and the seed of the Kingdom is planted. God declares the believer righteous by faith, then the seed sprouts and begins to produce that which has been declared.
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sandusky
Guest
Will you give me the post #(s) for those verses, because I don’t remember you citing any verses that fit my request stated above?
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guanophore
Guest
Wow.
You responded to some of them, so this is an amazing statement!
sandy, does this verse refer to imputed righteousness?
IN Matthew 5:20 Christ instructs his followers, “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Is this righteousness imputed:
Matt 6:33
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.
2 Cor 5:20-21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, **so that in him we might become the righteousness **of God.
Do we “become” righteous when we are declared as such?
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Were is this statement in scripture, I mean word for word? Since scripture seems to be your sole rule of faith. If it’s not in scripture, word for word then who gives you the power to believe it.
You actually believe that you much “do something” an act, a work, by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour to gain salvation. That seems to go against your own arguments here.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Do you have the power to save yourself by your faith?
Coming to faith is something you must do. a work
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guanophore
Guest
This is a very good question. To it, I would like to add another:
What did the Apostles instruct the believing person to do, when they acknowledged that He is Lord and Savior?
Hint = Acts 2:36-38
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and…”
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moondweller
Guest
That’s a very naive statement, guanophore.
Absolutely. As long as men don’t compromise it.
Wrong again, guanophore:Gal 5:9 "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."The introduction of even a little leaven into the bread dough no longer produces unleavened bread, only leavened. No matter how many loaves produced from that lump of dough, it will only produce leavened bread. It can do nothing else. Apostasy begets apostates. It can do nothing else.
I agree. Enter the Reformation.
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Thing
Guest
Which is the True division, if any?
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Pax
Guest
Here is what I said in post # 485:
Okay, fair enough…I’ll provide the scriptures, but let’s keep this in the proper perspective. Scripture doesn’t use the term “imputed” either. Obviously, we are dealing conceptually with these terms as describing what takes place in the believer.
I will unfortunately have to repeat myself on some of the scriptures since they have already been provided. We will start with the following:
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11
…you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
These verses speak of what it means as a believer to have your sins forgiven and to receive the Holy Spirit. To have your sins forgiven means that you have been “washed.” This is not imputed or juridical only. This means that a person is actually made clean. To be born again of water and Spirit means that a person is made a new creation. This is something that changes the person. This is not simply an imputation or a juridical declaration. This is an ontological change.
Upon washing, one is sanctified and justified. One is thus made holy and is set apart to be in friendship with God. Augusting believed that being washed sanctified, and justified to be an even greater miracle that that of creation.
This is all even more clear an obvious when we look at the prefiguring of baptism in the OT and then compare it with the Book of Acts.
Ezk 36:25-28 says:
“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.”
Compare this with the book of Acts which says:
Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
The parallel between Ezekiel and Acts is unmistakeable and none of it sounds like imputation. Removing the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh speaks of infusion not imputation. Receiving the Holy Spirit speaks of infusion not imputation. Cleansing from sin is infusion not imputation.
And here’s another one although I can cite many more. Paul says this to Titus:
Titus 3:4-8
"…He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
Not a single bit of this fits the concept of (name removed by moderator)utation. It all fits the concept of infusion.
I hope this helps.
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csandoval
Guest
There are no quotation marks on my reply, therefore it is no verbatum.
1 Cor. 15:1-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Gal. 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal. 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
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guanophore
Guest
If you believe this, then your understanding of God’s grace and the power of the HS is deficient. God has freed us from the slavery of sin, and commands us to “go, and sin no more” and not to yield our members to sin. God does not command us to do things that are not possible. He has overcome sin, and the world, flesh, and devil. If we are “in Christ” then we cease from sin.
No, csandoval. This is a lie from the devil. It is not required that we continue to sin that grace may abound. It is a lie that we must sin because we are in the flesh. Jesus was in the flesh, and did not sin. The same spirit that dwelt in Him now dwells in us, and we have been freed from the slavery of sin.
No one is saying that we can keep the commandments “for ourselves”. But Jesus did not set aside the commandments. What He did was enable the grace and power necessary to keep them to dwell within our hearts. I agree that we are sealed with the promised HS, but this happens in baptism.
Being under grace does not mean that the commandments of God don’t apply to us!
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Your not quoting scripture?! Then I repeat the question, who has given you the power to believe and to teach these phases and things that are outside of scripture?
“It is implied” is not an answer. The Catholic Church is implied in scripture, those that are unable to or don’t reconized that fact call themselves protestant or reformed.
Think of a better answer to support your beliefs. Try giving Pax’s question a try as well.
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Jason_W
Guest
seems you are saying were saved through a faith that does not work. the bible is very clear about faith that does not work.
James 2:20-22 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
you cannot simply throw out these Holy inspired versus of scripture as luther wanted to do. but you must take them in context with all scripture. justified by faith and justified by works do not contradict one another when they are united. it is only when you try to seperate one from the other that there is condradiction.
the root Paul is refering to in Romans 11 is Christ Jesus.those who believe are grafted in by that belief. those who turn back to unbelief will be cut off if they remain in unbelief.
all who were born of abraham were heirs of the promise, but if they choose wickedness and persisted in unbelief they were cut off that promise. salvation can be lost and it can be gained agian if only we believe and continue to produce good fruit.
Ezek. 33:13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die.
I will alwalys stand firm in my Catholic position. and im sure many protestants will stand firm in theirs. if ive posted what i believe to be the truth then ive done my part, but it seems there is quite a bit of bickering going on. although i might disagree with some of you, i have respect for you as a brother in Christ.this will be my last post on this thread , i hope that if some cannot agree on certain topics then at least you can come to an agreement on what the other believes and move on.
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guanophore
Guest
It appears that you have been taught that the Catholic church had some “great apostasy” and the whole Body of Christ fell into error, by replacing the gospel of Grace with a gospel of works. Let me assure you that this never happened. The Catholic Church does not now, nor has she ever, taught that salvation can be obtained by works. I am glad you came to CAF. I hope that your experience here will correct the wrong information you have been given.
Furthermore, I am still waiting for your defininition of apostasy.
Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church. That means that the church will not teach error. When error is taught, the gates of hell have been crossed, and one is on the wide road of perdition. If you think I am naive to believe Jesus when He makes this promise, so be it!
What you are speaking of here as “leaven” is not the gospel of grace, which cannot be nullified. Leaven is false teaching.
I will wait for you to provide a defintion of “apostasy” before I comment further on that point. It may be we are in agreement. However, since I think we define the term differently, then probably not.
Moon, I am glad we agree on the power of God’s word. However, I think that you and I have a different understanding of the boundaries God has given to mankind. Mankind is given a great deal of freedom, privilege, and responsibility. However, man is not powerful enough to set aside the Word of God for anyone but himself. The Word remains, eternal, unchanging, from the beginning. Jesus is that Word, immutible, almighty God. Men compromise themselves, and may even lead other men astray, but the Word of God continues unblemished.
The reformation may be an example of what you reference above where you say “apostasy begats apostasy”. Certainly it seems to me that, once the reformers separated themselves from the Church founded by Christ, separations and divisions continue ad nauseum. It seems that separation and division is the fruit that has sprung from the root, which was founded in separation.
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guanophore
Guest
No, you just did not understand my post, is all.
I said we are saved “for” works, not “by” works!
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Good_Fella
Guest
Is that so? :coffeeread:
The works we do after attaining eternal life? If I recall, Paul speaks of Christians running in a race. We must persevere until the end. And there is no guarantee that anyone will. For we are free to refuse God’s grace that assists us in our daily lives. Good works are a cause of our salvation, by the merits of Christ’s Passion, not an effect. If there is no human merit involved in our being saved, then it would have been senseless for Jesus to have said: “Well done, my good and faithful servant” (Mt 25, 21). If our good works are an effect of our justification by God’s imputed grace, then there’s no reason for Jesus to command us to love God and our neighbour in order to be saved. And if it’s a matter of imputed irresistible grace that safeguards our eternal destiny, then we may as well dismiss the notion of a free will.
Have you read ‘A Clockwork Orange’ by Anthony Burgess? In the story Ludovicko’s Reclamation Therapy or Technique resembles the ‘imputation’ of God’s grace. It is applied to hardened criminals in order to make them good without any free choice of their own. This treatment follows on the presumption that the hardened criminal is evil to the core, there is no chance he can co-operatively redeem himself by freely choosing to become a good person and reform his life. The question of whether he is genuinely sorry for his past crimes (rape and murder) is of no importance. The treatment is so designed that the criminal will not repeat his actions even if he wants to, for the effects of the treatment discourage him from doing so. It is physiologically irresistible. As long as he doesn’t repeat his crimes, once released, regardless of whether he would like to, he is justified in the eyes of the state simply because he won’t repeat them and can’t. His restored good life holds no human merit, since it was imposed upon him for the glory of the state. This artificially reformed criminal - who isn’t genuinely reformed - is judged redeemed by the state without any human merit and freedom on his part. What matters is that he is a good preprogrammed robot.
The prison chaplain was against this technique, for he felt that it stripped the hardened criminal of his humanity and prevented him from truly reconciling himself with God and man by a sincere act of repentance and a firm desire of amendment. He felt a criminal couldn’t be good in the eyes of God by merely refraining from doing evil things to others, what with the ill effects of L’s Technique that would arise every time he even contemplated an evil act after having been released from prison. [By the ‘infusion’ of God’s grace we are reformed inwardly and genuinely through our free response, seeing things for ourselves. Our inward change of heart and reformed life is a secondary cause of our justification and redemption. Our good works cannot be an effect of our justification in order to be truly good and efficacious by the merits of Christ’s Passion.] This is what the chaplain must have meant to tell our protaginist, Alex, when he said to him:
“The question is whether such a technique can really make a man good. Goodness comes from within, 6655321. Goodness is something chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man…It may not be nice to be good, little 6655321. It may be horrible to be good (for Alex it was)…What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is the man who chooses the bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has the good imposed upon him?..Do not, I pray, think evil of me in your heart, thinking me in any way involved in what is now going to happen to you. And now, talking of praying, I realize sadly that there will be no point in praying for you. You are passing now to a region where you will be beyond the reach of the power of prayer. A terrible terrible thing to consider.”
After his forced treatment was successfully completed, Alex was released from prison a just and redeemed man in the eyes of the state. He was reckoned a righteous person, although inwardly he was just as unrighteous as he was before his arrest and conviction. He returned to society without any genuine feeling of remorse for his past violent crimes, completely powerless to entertain or execute his desire to hurt others. It was as if he were inherently just and fit to resume a normal life in society. Without any merit on his part, Alex was declared innocent by the state, spared further punishment, and set free. He did no further wrong as a consequence of his justification. There was no further need to pray for him, for he was saved by Dr. Brodsky alone.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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Philthy
Guest
An apostate never has believed??? I thought an apostate was someone who had believed but had later rejected the faith. Do you equate apostasy with unbelief, as in everyone is born an apostate or is apostasy a subset of unbelief? Please clarify.
Hmmm…it sounds like your saying that salvation is a function of us working to preserve the gospel. I mean the gospel has been proclaimed and either the Spirit maintains it independently of our efforts (which obviates your - and the Reformation’s - percieved need to “preserve” it) or there is some action which we must contribute - empowered by the Spirit - to preserve it. I remain confused by your theology, but I am slow witted so please be patient.
Scripture says that God subsequently (Gen 22) “tested” him - your gripe is with Scripture, not with me.
Please note how I simply quoted Scripture with minimal commentary and how you have simply commented without reconciling your comments to the Scripture provided. What little commentary I did offer flowed naturally and logically from Scripture - not from my preconcieved theology of God’s omniscience or perfection. I’m not sure how to reconcile Gen 22 with God’s ominscience, but it says what it says. Perhaps the “Angel of the Lord” should not be equated with the “mind” of God; perhaps moral actions are not within the realm of that which is “known”, perhaps faith in a human is an eternally dynamic entity. Whatever the case may be, the most obvious understanding of the passage is that God tested Abraham and derived knowledge of his faith through that testing.
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Pax
Guest
You are clearly wrong in saying that a “believer” is going to keep on sinning because we are still in the flesh.
The apostle Paul is very specific about this and he says:
Romans 7:5
“While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.”
This refers to our past lives prior to faith. After faith we live in the Spirit not in the flesh. This is reinforced by this passage:
Roman 8:3-9
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Grace empowers us to lead holy lives and frees us from committing sin. Do not underestimate the power of God’s grace. If you truly wish to be led by the Spirit and to live in the Spirit, God will give you what you need.
Paul also says this on the subject:
1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
I hope this helps, but if you need more I can provide it by way of multiple scriptures.
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moondweller
Guest
The division is not necessarily found in any visible, church organization, but the fundamental beliefs of its leadership and individual members. The “true division” consists of people who continue to adhere to these fundamental, biblically based doctrines of the Reformation:Sola Scriptura: Scripture alone
Sola Gratia: Salvation by grace alone
Sola Fide: Salvation through faith alone
Solus Christus: Salvation in Christ alone
Soli Deo Gloria: To the glory of God aloneThese did not begin with the Reformation (being the heart of Biblical revelation), but were again brought to theological prominence and to public awareness.
Jason W:
Nope. Never said that. Eph. 2:10 states that those described in Eph. 2:8-9, being saved by grace, through faith, as a gift and not as a result of works, are "created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, but (as Paul teaches in the prior two verses) not BY them. Also, it’s God Himself who saves (completely), not the faith: “For by grace you have been been saved (i.e., by God) through faith…”
Truthfully, I was taught nothing about the RCC. I began to study its doctrines on my own. As for the “whole body of Christ” falling into error, that will never happen. The “body of Christ” transcends both Catholic-ism and Protestant-ism.
Phithy:
I’m not saying God Himself sabotages His Word, but men and angels do, to their own perdition. This is not new but goes all the way back to Satan and Eve in the Garden: “Indeed, has God said…?” “You surely shall not die.” And Eve herself added the commandment to not “touch” to the original.
"Philthy, apostasy is borne out of unbelief, never out of belief (an oxymoron). Hence, apostasy begets apostates. It multiplies after its own kind. This side of the cross apostasy is a renunciation of the gospel of Christ. The divine gospel of God’s grace renounced, repudiated and replaced by men with “a gospel” of human works. This is what it means to “fall from grace.” Catch that, Pax?
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