Faith Alone

[sandusky]

He paid the fine so you could get out of jail, but his sacrifice did not change your heart. Only you can do that. Without a change of heart you will continue to commit crimes and send yourself back to jail. At any time you can change your heart, ask for forgiveness and be set free again.

Is there a paragraph in the CCC to the effect that it is “only you who can change your heart?”

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude,

When you’ve got a chance, unpack this paragraph from the catechism for me:**615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.**I’m curious as well, about the use of “sin,” sing., and “sins,” pl.

What does the catechism mean, “he bore the sin of many?”

Bore it how?

And what did this bearing of sin accomplish? (I may have asked that already).

 

[Catholic_Dude]

See Post # 979 part B. What has been divinely posted to the believer’s account is divine righteousness - Christ’s.

I will comment on post 979 below, but I must point out that your response here in no way disproves the case I presented on the usage of logizomai.

Justification is not the forgiveness of sins.
Look at it like Divine Bookkeeping:On the divine Ledger our sin is entered on the debit side. At the cross God transferred all of our indebtedness to His Son (imputation of our sins to Christ), leaving the debit side of the ledger absolutely clean.[1]

But God doesn’t stop there. As a GIFT, God transferred the Divine Righteousness of His Son to the believer’s right hand, or “credit” column. IOW, the believer’s account is not simply “zeroed out” (i.e., the forgiveness of ALL sins), but is found with (imputed) a positive balance of the very righteousness of Christ Himself.**[2]**This is Divine Justification. The only righteousness acceptable for man to stand in God’s holy presence. This righteousness is neither increased nor decreased. It’s perfect righteousness being Christ’s.

[1] If by this you mean the Father punished Jesus with the punishment our sins deserved I would say that is not only flatly un-Biblical, it is blasphemous.

Also, if there is nothing on the “debt side” I would say at that point you are actually righteous in God’s sight.

[2] First of all I would say this concept is not to be found in Scripture. Next, I would say it obliterates any need for sanctification because God only sees you and values you as far as what is in your portfolio, not the quality of your soul. This concept would be equivalent to someone who keeps all the civil laws, pays taxes, gives to charity but is engaging in fornication. To the eyes of the law that person is a fine upstanding citizen, to the eyes of God that person is living in sin. There is no severing the quality of your soul with what God views your soul as. Here is a striking example of what the imputed righteousness view is saying: With the Protestant view the Christian is seen and considered perfectly righteous in the eyes of God even so during the very act of rape, this is an abomination.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What is it Christ has done, if not taken the penalty for His peoples’ sins upon Himself?

He came that we might have life. His life demonstrated for us the perfect life God desires each of us to live, and the value of His life merited for us the graces for our salvation.

He did not “take the penalty” if you mean Jesus took the Father’s wrath upon himself, that is both un-Biblical and blasphemous.

 

[moondweller]

This is a pretty serious claim to make, and it carries with it certain problems. You say we will never be completely righteous in this life, thus that means Christians die at less than 100% sanctified.

Subjectively, in this yet unredeemed body the believer is being sanctified by the avoidance of sin and not being conformed to this world system (Rom. 12:1-2; Eph. 4:1ff).

However,* objectively*, all believers have been sanctified "in Christ:"1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”

1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (these all being a past, completed action).

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

 

[SyCarl]

He came that we might have life. His life demonstrated for us the perfect life God desires each of us to live, and the value of His life merited for us the graces for our salvation.

He did not “take the penalty” if you mean Jesus took the Father’s wrath upon himself, that is both un-Biblical and blasphemous.

I would suggest that it is hardly un-Biblical if you look at Isaiah 53.

 

[davidv]

Is there a paragraph in the CCC to the effect that it is “only you who can change your heart?”

Try article 1426.

 

[SyCarl]

He came that we might have life. His life demonstrated for us the perfect life God desires each of us to live, and the value of His life merited for us the graces for our salvation.

He did not “take the penalty” if you mean Jesus took the Father’s wrath upon himself, that is both un-Biblical and blasphemous.

Jesus paying the penalty for our sin was also one aspect of atonement commented on by many fathers.

Justin Martyr

If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God.-Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 95)
newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm

Gregory of Nazianzus

As for my sake He was called a curse, Who destroyed my curse; and sin, who taketh away the sin of the world; and became a new Adam to take the place of the old, just so He makes my disobedience His own as Head of the whole body. As long then as I am disobedient and rebellious, both by denial of God and by my passions, so long Christ also is called disobedient on my account.-Gregory of Nazianzus
wordsfromtheway.com/between-the-trees/?p=226

Cyril of Jerusalem

If any disbelieve the power of the Crucified, let him ask the devils; if any believe not words, let him believe what he sees. Many have been crucified throughout the world, but by none of these are the devils scared; but when they see even the Sign of the Cross of Christ, who was crucified for us, they shudder. For those men died for their own sins, but Christ for the sins of others; for He did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. .-Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 13, Paragraph 3)
newadvent.org/fathers/310113.htm

Augustine

Christ, though guiltless, took our punishment, that He might cancel our guilt, and do away with our punishment.-Augustine (Contra Faustum Book 14, Chapter 4)
newadvent.org/fathers/140614.htm

1. The believer in the true doctrine of the gospel will understand that Christ is not reproached by Moses when he speaks of Him as cursed, not in His divine majesty, but as hanging on the tree as our substitute, bearing our punishment, any more than He is praised by the Manichæans when they deny that He had a mortal body, so as to suffer real death. In the curse of the prophet there is praise of Christ’s humility, while in the pretended regard of the heretics there is a charge of falsehood. If, then, you deny that Christ was cursed, you must deny that He died; and then you have to meet, not Moses, but the apostles. Confess that He died, and you may also confess that He, without taking our sin, took its punishment. .-Augustine (Contra Faustum Book 14, Chapter 7)
   newadvent.org/fathers/140614.htm

For even the Lord was subject to death, but not on account of sin: He took upon Him our punishment, and so looseth our guilt.-Augustine (Expositions of the Book of Psalms, Psalm 51)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LI.html

to be continued

 

[sandusky]

Try article 1426.

Thanks, David; I’ll do that now.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

This is poor logic and doctrinally incorrect. According to Scripture, the forgiveness of sins toward sinners is not an immediate act of grace. God does not deal with ANY sin in mercy, or leniency. The sinner is never forgiven because God is big-hearted enough to remit the penalty, or to waive the righteous judgments. Any presentation of divine forgiveness which represents God as directly exercising clemency toward a sinner is a fatal detraction from the meaning of the cross of Christ.

You just obliterated the VERY NOTION of mercy and forgiveness. In other words what you are saying is God’s mercy and forgiveness is founded upon revenge and payment. God wont forgive unless He can unleash His wrath on someone, ANYONE, even HIS OWN SON! Oh, the blasphemy!
God’s love and mercy is the FOUNDATION and SOURCE of sending Jesus, not “divine bookkeeping.”

According to Scriptural Truth, the Lamb of God has already taken away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29). The fact that Christ, as Substitute, has already borne the undiminished righteous judgments of God against sin, is the sole ground upon which all divine forgiveness is now exercised.

No. You have an incorrect, un-Biblical, and blasphemous view of the Cross and mission of Christ.

The forgiveness of God toward sinners, therefore, is not an immediate act of grace (favor); but rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that the debt has been fully paid by Another. The righteous basis on which all divine forgiveness is extended is the cross of Christ.

NO! You IMPROPERLY use the terms “pardon” and “forgive”. The debt was PAID, the concept of “pardon”, “mercy” and “forgive” DONT EXIST.

If you owe me $100 and Bob pays me the $100 then I CANNOT be said to have pardoned or forgiven you. If you owe me $100 and Bob rescues my life I will be DISPOSED to granting any request of Bob. If Bob asks that I forgive you the debt then you dont owe me anymore. THIS is essentially what Jesus did for us.

If we deserve hellfire for our sins, do you think Jesus underwent hellfire in our place? GOD FORBID! Jesus’ life was so pleasing to God that the charges against us were freely dropped upon request.

The Gospel message of the cross is that sinners (through faith in Christ alone) may now stand forever pardoned before God; not because God is gracious enough to excuse their sins; but because there is plentiful redemption through the blood of Christ that was shed:

That is both unBiblical and blasphemous. We are never “forever pardoned” and we are forgiven on the GROUNDS of grace and mercy.

Eph 1:7-8 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us.”

1 Pet 1:18-19 "knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ."Being free to forgive all (because of the cross of Christ), God is free to forgive perfectly.

We were REDEEMED from our DEAD-END ways. We were redeemed from the grip of sin, FREED so that we could serve God in spirit and in truth. In God’s justice he left man in bondage to the sin man put himself in, but by His mercy He provided the means to be freed from that bondage of sin! THAT is the Gospel message. NOT some bloodthirsty pagan tyrant god who needs to see someone die before He is appeased.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont 2 of 2)

(1) Jesus served no “jail sentence.” He gave His life as a ransom:1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time” (see Matt. 20:28; Mk. 10:45)

I used the term “jail” in the context of SyCarl’s analogy. I should have used the term “death penalty” or “execution”.

(2) The believer is not under law, but under GRACE (Rom. 6:14).Rom 4:13-16 “For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

Your quoting a passage which you totally are misinterpreting. The passage is about divine ADOPTION which came through the model of our FATHER Abraham, this promise was given BEFORE the Law was even issued! THAT is what Paul is saying. If you want to be a DESCENDANT and HEIR of the Father’s estate you must come in the model of Abraham. Christ won for us the grace to BECOME heirs.

The believer is not seen as justified before God because through Christ ALL his sins are forever forgiven, he is justified, giftwise (Rom. 3:24), seen as righteous, because he is no longer “in Adam,” but now “in Christ,” a new creation, imputed (even credited) HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (2 Cor. 5:21).

This passage is founded upon error, by means of misinterpretation and presumption of what the text says. Nowhere does the Bible teach “forever forgiven” (note Gal 5:19-21). Nowhere does the Bible teach “seen as righteous” but not actually righteous. The concept of a NEW CREATION is INCOMPATIBLE with imputing an alien righteousness. The phrase “His Righteousness” is not what Paul teaches, Paul does not speak in therms of “Christ’s Righteousness” nor does Paul equate “Righteousness of God” with “Jesus”. That is from the Protestant tradition of presuming and misunderstanding Scripture.

He sees the true believer pardoned of ALL sins (Jn. 1:29), now in Christ, made righteous.

This sentence can be taken in a Catholic way, which I of course accept, or in a the Protestant way of imputing an alien status, which I reject.

Yes, this view is truly “Catholic,” but not at all Biblical. It is a “gospel” of works. The Person and work of Christ completely out of the picture. God can not justly “drop charges,” nor can a sinner “serve time” for his sins. The wages of sin is a death sentence: Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Try the words of Jesus Himself, Mat 18:23-35.

I have studied and debated this issue enough to know where the major problems in your theology are.

 

[SyCarl]

John Chrysostom

And what has He done? “Him that knew no sin He made to be sin, for you.” For had He achieved nothing but done only this, think how great a thing it were to give His Son for those that had outraged Him. But now He has both well achieved mighty things, and besides, has suffered Him that did no wrong to be punished for those who had done wrong. But he did not say this: but mentioned that which is far greater than this. What then is this? “Him that knew no sin,” he says, Him that was righteousness itself, “He made sin,” that is suffered as a sinner to be condemned, as one cursed to die. .-John Chrysostom, Homilies on 2 Corinthians, Homily 11, verse 21)
newadvent.org/fathers/220211.htm

Ambrose

Jesus took on himself even death, that the sentence of condemnation might be carried out, that he might satisfy the judgment that sinful flesh should be cursed even unto death. Nothing therefore was done contrary to the sentence of God, since the condition of God’s sentence was fulfilled.-Ambrose (De Fuga, 44)
angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.ambrose.html

Eusebius of Caesarea

And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, (d) and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being made a curse for us. ."-Eusebius of Caesarea (Demonstratio Envangelica, Book 10, Chapter 1)
tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_12_book10.htm

He then that was alone of those who ever existed, the Word of God, before all worlds, and High Priest of every creature that has mind and reason, separated One of like passions with us, as a sheep or lamb from the human flock, branded on Him all our sins, and fastened on Him as well the curse that was adjudged by Moses’ law, as Moses foretells: “Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” This He suffered "being made a curse for us; and making himself sin for our sakes."And then "He made him sin for our sakes who knew no sin,"and laid on Him all the punishments due to us for our sins, bonds, insults, contumelies, scourging, and shameful blows, and the crowning trophy of the Cross. And after all this when He had offered such a wondrous offering and choice victim to the Father, and sacrificed for the salvation of us all, He delivered a memorial to us to offer to God continually instead of a sacrifice. ."-Eusebius of Caesarea (Demonstratio Envangelica, Book 1, Chapter 10)
tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_03_book1.htm

to be continued

 

[SyCarl]

Athanasius

But beyond all this, there was a debt owing which must needs be paid; for, as I said before, all men were due to die. Here, then, is the second reason why the Word dwelt among us, namely that having proved His Godhead by His works, He might offer the sacrifice on behalf of all, surrendering His own temple to death in place of all, to settle man’s account with death and free him from the primal transgression….Thus it happened that two opposite marvels took place at once: the death of all was consummated in the Lord’s body; yet, because the Word was in it, death and corruption were in the same act utterly abolished. Death there had to be, and death for all, so that the due of all might be paid.-Athanasius (On the Incarnation, Chapter 4, Paragraph 20)
ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.v.html

Formerly the world, as guilty, was under judgment from the Law; but now the Word has taken on Himself the judgment, and having suffered in the body for all, has bestowed salvation to all.-Athanasius
wordsfromtheway.com/between-the-trees/?p=226

Gregory the Great

…if he had not himself undertaken a death not due to him, he would never have freed us from one that was justly due to us… for the sake of sinners he condemns him who is without sin, that all the elect might rise up to the height of righteousness, in proportion as he who is above all underwent the penalties of our unrighteousness’.-Gregory the Great (Moralia in Job, iii. 14; LF, 18:149)
beginningwithmoses.org/bigger/punishedinourplace.htm

Oecumenius

He says that “he bore the sins of many” on the cross, in order that he might quell them, paying the penalty that they deserved. Now the Father sent him, “having made him sin.” For also Christ became as if a sinner, inasmuch as he took on the sins of the whole world and claimed them as his own. But then he paid the penalty that was owed, the punishment belonging to sinners. At last he will come with his Father’s glory, no longer as a sinner, no longer “reckoned among the lawless.”-Oecumenius (Fragments on the Epistle to the Hebrews 9.28 Erik M. Heen & Philip D. W. Krey ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament X Hebrews, (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2005), p. 149.)

 

[sandusky]

Try article 1426.

I’ve read this, and rather than guess which part of this says that “only you can change your heart” (or words to that effect), would you point it out, please?1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is “holy and without blemish.” Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life. This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Catholic Dude,

When you’ve got a chance, unpack this paragraph from the catechism for me:615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”[1] By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.[2]I’m curious as well, about the use of “sin,” sing., and “sins,” pl.[3]

What does the catechism mean, “he bore the sin of many?” [4]

Bore it how?[5]

And what did this bearing of sin accomplish? (I may have asked that already).[5]

[1] This is a quote directly from Rom 5:19. The sin of Adam made our souls actually unrighteous, the obedience of Christ made our souls actually righteous.

[2] Christ lived a perfect life of obedience and love and this act was infinitely pleasing to the Father.

**[3] **I dont see what you are getting at.

**[4] **It means Christ put in the work and underwent the pains of restoring God’s honor among sinners. When a father works and breaks his back to care for his family he is said to be bearing the weight of the family. Sin isnt a blob that can be physically carried, it is figurative language.

**[5] In that Christ humbled himself to become man and undergo pain and suffering to correct the problem (restore God’s honor and raise man from bondage to sin).

**

This is a pretty serious claim to make, and it carries with it certain problems. You say we will never be completely righteous in this life, thus that means Christians die at less than 100% sanctified.

This doesnt answer the question. If you die and are not completely righteous then you have no time to become completely righteous.

However,* objectively*, all believers have been sanctified "in Christ:"1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”

1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed**, but you were sanctified**, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (these all being a past, completed action).

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

But if you interpret this sanctification as an imputation then you are saying a filthy diaper is entering heaven as long as it comes wrapped inside a beautiful gift box.

Further, I would say these passages actually support the idea a Christian can be righteous before death, in fact they are such immediately upon conversion and repentance of sin. Imagine someone being “washed, sanctified and justified” in one sitting and then being told they were not actually righteous!

I would suggest that it is hardly un-Biblical if you look at Isaiah 53.

I would say that is due to a misreading of Is 53, especially in light of how Is 53 unfolds in the Gospels.

Jesus paying the penalty for our sin was also one aspect of atonement commented on by many fathers.
Justin Martyr
Gregory of Nazianzus
Cyril of Jerusalem
Augustine
to be continued

SyCarl, I have been through those quotes at least twice before. Go search the threads where I responded to them and please stop cutting and pasting the same things over and over. Since the Protestants around here are primarily concerned with Scripture that is what I will stick to.

 

[moondweller]

[1] If by this you mean the Father punished Jesus with the punishment our sins deserved I would say that is not only flatly un-Biblical, it is blasphemous.

Is not the wages of sin death (Rom. 6:23a)? Did He not die? To say that He did not die, in your stead, would be blasphemous, indeed.

Also, if there is nothing on the “debt side” I would say at that point you are actually righteous in God’s sight.

You’d make a poor bookkeeper. The debit side is simply clean. No entry. All debts were forgiven. It doesn’t make anyone “righteous.” It doesn’t even make anyone innocent. The sinner has been pardoned ALL debts in view of the cross. It brings his account to ZERO. But there is nothing on the “credit” side of the divine Ledger.

Adam was innocent before the fall, but he was not “righteous.” After the fall he was guilty of transgressing a divine commandment. He sinned, and the wage of that sin was death (spiritual and physical).

Divine forgiveness does not bring the believer back to the state of Adam before the fall: Innocent. No man (save the Theanthopic Man) can ever be seen as innocent before God:“For ALL SINNED (past tense, i.e, in Adam) and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:24a).Part B of Rom. 3:24 is the CREDIT side of the divine Ledger. As a GIFT God justifies (credits/reckons righteousness) to the pardoned believer. He imputes Christ’s righteousness to the right hand column of the divine Ledger. And the ground on which He imputes that righteousness is that the believer is no longer “in Adam,” but now “in Christ,” (the “Last Adam”), a new creation (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

[2] First of all I would say this concept is not to be found in Scripture. Next, I would say it obliterates any need for sanctification because God only sees you and values you as far as what is in your portfolio, not the quality of your soul. This concept would be equivalent to someone who keeps all the civil laws, pays taxes, gives to charity but is engaging in fornication. To the eyes of the law that person is a fine upstanding citizen, to the eyes of God that person is living in sin. There is no severing the quality of your soul with what God views your soul as. Here is a striking example of what the imputed righteousness view is saying: With the Protestant view the Christian is seen and considered perfectly righteous in the eyes of God even so during the very act of rape, this is an abomination.

Your analogy is completely false because you leave out the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation: regeneration. All three Person of the Godhead are involved in man’s salvation. And theologically you confound sanctification and justification. This is one of the areas where Catholic theology falls short of Biblical revelation. It always will as long it embraces a works salvation and refuses to accept the power of God to save completely and perfectly through the cross of Christ.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Is not the wages of sin death (Rom. 6:23a)? Did He not die? To say that He did not die, in your stead, would be blasphemous, indeed.

Christ did not “die in my stead” in the sense I deserve hellfire and Jesus suffered hellfire in my place, that is not taught in Scripture.

You’d make a poor bookkeeper. The debit side is simply clean. No entry. All debts were forgiven. It doesn’t make anyone “righteous.” It doesn’t even make anyone innocent. The sinner has been pardoned ALL debts in view of the cross. It brings his account to ZERO. But there is nothing on the “credit” side of the divine Ledger.

Debtf-ree and Righteous are equivalent terms. In 1 Jn 1:9 it says if we confess our sins we will be cleansed of all unrighteousness, that means anything that is keeping us from being righteous is removed. If you owe the bank $100 you are not in good standing with the bank, if you pay off the $100 you are again in good standing.

Adam was innocent before the fall, but he was not “righteous.” After the fall he was guilty of transgressing a divine commandment. He sinned, and the wage of that sin was death (spiritual and physical).

I disagree, there is no neutral state, in Rom 5:19 it says the sin of Adam made men sinners and the obedience of Christ made men righteous. Here righteous is contrasted to sin, and Christ came to undo the effects of Adam. So it is basically saying by the sin of Adam many become unrighteous and by the obedience of Christ many became righteous. God made creation “very good”.

Divine forgiveness does not bring the believer back to the state of Adam before the fall: Innocent. No man (save the Theanthopic Man) can ever be seen as innocent before God:“For ALL SINNED (past tense, i.e, in Adam) and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:24a).Part B of Rom. 3:24 is the CREDIT side of the divine Ledger. As a GIFT God justifies (credits/reckons righteousness) to the pardoned believer. He imputes Christ’s righteousness to the right hand column of the divine Ledger. And the ground on which He imputes that righteousness is that the believer is no longer “in Adam,” but now “in Christ,” (the “Last Adam”), a new creation (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).

You are reading these concepts into the text. Romans is not concerned with “credit” versus “debt” and “ledger”, salvation goes BEYOND the ledger/courtroom.

The Bible nowhere teaches an alien righteousness is imputed, you are repeating the traditions of men against the teaching of Scripture.

Also it is funny how you charge that Adam was not considered a “new creation” but we are.

Your analogy is completely false because you leave out the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation: regeneration. All three Person of the Godhead are involved in man’s salvation.

I never “left out” nor denied the work of any Person.

And theologically you confound sanctification and justification.

NO, you do. You sever the two so that you can have God considering you perfectly righteous even if you were engaging in rape at that very moment.

This is one of the areas where Catholic theology falls short of Biblical revelation.

Not at all. The fact you cannot and wont address the usage of logizomai and instead repeat the same unsubstantiated and even refuted claims on imputation means the burden of proof is on you.

 

[SyCarl]

SyCarl, I have been through those quotes at least twice before. Go search the threads where I responded to them and please stop cutting and pasting the same things over and over. Since the Protestants around here are primarily concerned with Scripture that is what I will stick to.

I will keep posting them as long as you deny that accepting our punishment was part of the redemption. There are other parts as well but this is one part. God promised death for sin and God does not lie. Death there had to be.

You have often used the example of a mother appeasing the father’s anger against the kids by cooking his favourite dinner. This would suggest that Jesus’ death was something the Father wanted.

It should be remembered that Jesus is God. God did not render our punishment to someone else. He took it onto Himself.

 

[sandusky]

[He bore the sins of many]
…means Christ put in the work and underwent the pains of restoring God’s honor among sinners…

**What happened to God’s honor that it needed restoring?

And, where can I find that in the catechism?**

 

[sandusky]

I will keep posting them as long as you deny that accepting our punishment was part of the redemption. There are other parts as well but this is one part. God promised death for sin and God does not lie. Death there had to be.

You have often used the example of a mother appeasing the father’s anger against the kids by cooking his favourite dinner. This would suggest that Jesus’ death was something the Father wanted.

It should be remembered that Jesus is God. God did not render our punishment to someone else. He took it onto Himself.

Amen…