Faith Alone?

[spiderweb]

Thanks for the links Bookcat. I’m never opposed to more reading and learning.

 

[spedteacherita]

Aidanbradypop

The quote button didn’t want to be clicked, i dont know why.

I still see living like disciple of Christ as good works though.

When i was a kid til my teenage years, my uncle always taught me that Jesus is crucified to pay for all our sins so it now doesnt matter if we murder and do evil things, we’ll still be saved. As a kid i already knew this is error, my Protestant mom also told me to not listen to him, this man is an example of someone who believed in faith “only” , means without even trying to live Christian life.

Yes, living like a disciple of Christ does include good works, but we cannot do them on our own - that’s the work of the Holy Spirit. 1st comes the grace of God, belief of Him as we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then comes the “good works” out of us…some we know and some we don’t. It’s a natural response to “walking in the light of the Lord.”

It really is too complicated for me to truly explain. The joy of His love for us moves in us and we naturally will do good works - not for merit but because He loves us and the Holy Spirit moves us.

We all have our ups and downs in our spiritual lives and we must continually be in the Word, share in the sacraments, and be in constant prayer in order to be spiritually fed.

God loves us first and we respond from that love.

 

[Vanez]

Yes, living like a disciple of Christ does include good works, but we cannot do them on our own - that’s the work of the Holy Spirit. 1st comes the grace of God, belief of Him as we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then comes the “good works” out of us…some we know and some we don’t. It’s a natural response to “walking in the light of the Lord.”

It really is too complicated for me to truly explain. The joy of His love for us moves in us and we naturally will do good works - not for merit but because He loves us and the Holy Spirit moves us.

We all have our ups and downs in our spiritual lives and we must continually be in the Word, share in the sacraments, and be in constant prayer in order to be spiritually fed.

God loves us first and we respond from that love.

Thank you Rita for the explanation.

 

[Ignatius]

I know this comes up all the time on here, and honestly I don’t understand it. This thread is for me to hopefully understand this position better. In reading other threads and websites this is what how I understand it. Saving Grace comes by Faith Alone. This saving Faith must be a Lived Faith. So here is my problem…

Faith Alone=Lived Faith
Lived Faith=faith and good works

therefore

faith and good works=Faith Alone

This makes the phrase and concept of Faith Alone meaningless…

Exactly!

 

[JonNC]

=spiderweb;12834387]
What would be your understanding of 1 Cor. 12:9 describing gifts of the Spirit among believers who have received the Holy Spirit, but that it seems to say that not everyone has the gift of Faith?

4Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; 5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; 6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. 7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. 8To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches. 11But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.

I wouldn’t see these examples of gifts of the Spirit as being mutual exclusive.

Also James 5:20 that someone who causes a sinner to repent, shall save his own soul and cover a multitude of sins. How would those passages be understood from your perspective?

19My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

My own: related to “the Great Commission”. When one acts to bring the word to someone who has not repented, it is the soul of the newly regenerate that is brought to salvation.

Jon

 

[jlhargus]

Ok, I think I grasp what’s been said above.

So do good works increase faith, grace, or both? I have no difficulty with it increasing faith.

If it can increase grace, is it an increase in saving grace merited by Christ, or is it storing up treasures in heaven, or both? Or something different?

[Jms2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only**.

 

[himanshu2263]

Hi,

“Faith is taking the first step even when you can’t see the whole staircase.”

– Martin Luther King, Jr.


I Am Desperate For Success : A story that inspires and motivates you to work hard without thinking about the luxuries you have. One should always be, faithful desperate for success.

And may you will also like to get inspired by reading stories about inspiration from the most awesome stories website having video section: eShortStories.com

 

[Koineman]

In light of the references to James on not being justified by faith alone, I wonder how those who are quoting that reconcile it to this:

“But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (NABRE)

 

[Per_Crucem]

In light of the references to James on not being justified by faith alone, I wonder how those who are quoting that reconcile it to this:

“But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (NABRE)

To be justified by God is also to be given the Spirit by whom we can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Torah, which is the opposite of works, as Paul says in the passage you quoted. That is to say, not only does God justify by forgiving transgressions, but he himself makes righteousness possible by the indwelling Spirit. Therefore, as he says in Philippians 2:13, “It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” This happens to the degree that we walk in the Spirit, which is a function of faith. One might say then, that Paul’s teaching on walking in the Spirit (e.g., Gal. 5:16) is the exact theological equivalent of what James means by “works,” it is just that James does not articulate such a refined pneumatology.

 

[Koineman]

To be justified by God is also to be given the Spirit by whom we can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Torah, which is the opposite of works, as Paul says in the passage you quoted.

The problem with this is the passage specifically refers to not working but believing.

So, Paul emphasizes faith without working.

James emphasizes faith with working.

 

[Koineman]

There are two ways to resolve the difficulty that I know of:

1. to say that Paul is not referring to good works in general but only to ceremonial works of the law, but I don’t see any evidence for such a narrow focus in Romans.
2. to say that James is using the word justified in a way different from Paul, namely, with the idea that justify means to show or prove something to be right, as in Mt. 11:19: “wisdom is justified by her deeds.” With this meaning, James is saying that faith is shown to be genuine by the deeds one does. This tends to fit the context: “show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works” (2:18)

This view tends to fall apart, though, when we consider James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” So if this meaning of justify was meant by James, now he is saying that the man himself is shown to be genuine, but that seems to be pushing it.

 

[cheezey]

(I hope my attempt at the various quotes worked out)

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

There are two ways to resolve the difficulty that I know of:

1. to say that Paul is not referring to good works in general but only to ceremonial works of the law, but I don’t see any evidence for such a narrow focus in Romans.
2. to say that James is using the word justified in a way different from Paul, namely, with the idea that justify means to show or prove something to be right, as in Mt. 11:19: “wisdom is justified by her deeds.” With this meaning, James is saying that faith is shown to be genuine by the deeds one does. This tends to fit the context: “show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works” (2:18)

This view tends to fall apart, though, when we consider James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” So if this meaning of justify was meant by James, now he is saying that the man himself is shown to be genuine, but that seems to be pushing it.

The reason for saying that Paul has in mind chiefly the ceremonial law by “works of the law” is from the context of his arguments, that there is no distinction between the Jews and Gentiles before God. Likewise, he argues not that Abraham was saved regardless of his conduct, but that he was counted righteous in God’s sight even before he was circumcised.

Romans 2:6-11
[God] Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:25-29:

Circumcision profiteth indeed, if thou keep the law; but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. If, then, the uncircumcised keep the justices of the law, shall not this uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not that which by nature is uncircumcision, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law? For it is not he is a Jew, who is so outwardly; nor is that circumcision which is outwardly in the flesh: But he is a Jew, that is one inwardly; and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:28-29:
For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.

Romans 4:9-10:
This blessedness then, doth it remain in the circumcision only, or in the uncircumcision also? For we say that unto Abraham faith was reputed to justice. How then was it reputed? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

And so on. The main thrust of the letter is that true righteousness is interior, and for all men, not just the Jews.

Some, in an attempt to communicate the gratuity of salvation, make it out are purely coincidental with salvation, but have no factor in judgment. But it is stated multiple times in the New Testament that we will all be judged on the basis of works. Otherwise, the passage from Romans 2 ought to read, “Who will render to everyone according to his faith.”

I don’t see any big contradiction between James and Paul. Paul says that Abraham believed God and it (his belief) was imputed as righteousness. Maybe one issue is that some draw to sharp a distinction between faith and works. Since belief is at its root an act that we do, wouldn’t justification by faith be justification by the work of believing according to the standards of some? But Paul nonetheless says that God counted Abraham’s belief as righteousness. So it seems to me that “justification” has a judicial character. God judges us righteous when we believe. This is not contrary to what he says in other places in the same letter, that we are also judged righteous for fulfilling the law of love.

James is saying that Abraham was not only justified by believing what God told him, but also acting in accordance with it. If we have only belief, even if we believe that Christ took away the penalty all our sins, if all our actions are otherwise hateful, our belief alone will not save us. We will be judged as deserving hell in the judgment. It is definitely clear that James has our final end in mind when he says, “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?”​

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

How can what I do increase a gift, an unearned, unmerited, undeserved gift? A gift is a gift.
Yes? If we must earn a gift, or even work to increase it, it is no longer a gift.
What is the purpose, God’s intention, of our doing good works? It seems to me Christ tells us, to help the least of His children, to love our fellowman.

Council of Orange, 529

A couple of points. First, the Council of Orange also says, “According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.” The council does not deny that the performance of good works is necessary for salvation. Second is the idea of merit. I don’t know if you mean to deny this, but the New Testament frequently speaks of heaven as a reward based on the judgment of our works and, moreover, as something proportional to our works (i.e. that not all enjoy equal glory in heaven).

 

[Bookcat]

]Regarding Faith and Works in St. Paul

Pope Benedict XVI

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

and one from a few years earlier: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The problem with this is the passage specifically refers to not working but believing.

So, Paul emphasizes faith without working.

James emphasizes faith with working.

Actually Paul is in complete harmony with James.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

They both preached a faith with good works. Not without good works. James writing is the inevitable conclusion of a faith without good works: dead.

 

[Koineman]

The reason for saying that Paul has in mind chiefly the ceremonial law by “works of the law” is from the context of his arguments,

In the context, he uses the word *law * to mean both circumcision as well as the moral law, e.g.,:

“For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,” (2:14)

Clearly, these “things of the Law” that the Gentiles do are not ceremonial things like circumcision. Thus, the word law here refers to the moral law.

“21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.”

More uses of the word law to mean moral law.

There are also the following passages, in which Paul uses the word law to refer to moral law:

Rom. 7: “I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;”

Gal. 5: “And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.” What is the “whole Law”? Obviously more than circumcision, and obviously the whole thing–unless you want to say that Paul didn’t really mean “whole” when he wrote, “whole.”

Your explanation resolves the tension between James and Paul only if you limit Paul’s use of the word law to ceremonial laws, but that cannot reasonably be done based on the context.

 

[Koineman]

Actually Paul is in complete harmony with James.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

They both preached a faith with good works. Not without good works. James writing is the inevitable conclusion of a faith without good works: dead.

That doesn’t resolve the tension. James actually says that a man is justified by works and faith, whereas Paul says justification is only through faith and NOT by working.

Yes, Paul preached good works, and so did James. There’s no tension there.

The tension between them is in how one is justified.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That doesn’t resolve the tension. James actually says that a man is justified by works and faith, whereas Paul says justification is only through faith and NOT by working.

Yes, Paul preached good works, and so did James. There’s no tension there.

The tension between them is in how one is justified.

In what translation version does Paul use: “only”?

 

[Koineman]

In what translation version does Paul use: “only”?

This is actually a very pointless question. What is sufficient is if the concept is there in the text; the presence of the exact word is not the issue. The idea is there, specifically when he refers to not working but believing. The contrast between working and believing is unmistakable.