Faith Alone?

[clem456]

Not against our will, for he first changes the will so we desire faith, like the Council of Orange said. Do you agree with that?

But God does not wait for us to desire faith before He gives it. If he did, nobody would ever have faith because nobody in their natural state wants anything to do with faith, grace, Christ, righteousness, etc.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: **“Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.”**27

The bolded sentence here illustrates the reciprocal and relational nature of faith.
God is mover, human beings respond through assent.
You can’t claim that because God gives a gift he is necessarily “forcing”.

If God forced, why then would his fullest expression and revelation of himself, Jesus Christ, go to the cross?

In fact, it begs the question, why would Christ become a human being in the first place, if God were forcing those he elected to have faith? That makes no sense.
Christ condescends to be human, and allows free human hands to crucify him.

If I could force a woman to have relations with me all day every day, why would I enter into a marriage covenant with her and do all the uncertain and difficult work with her? Why would I condescend if I had the power and desire to force?? By entering the marriage covenant I pledge my entire being to her, and I risk being rejected. I might offer my gift of love all I want, and still be rejected.

Forcing is not love, it is not reciprocal. A basic Christian concept of God is Trinity. Father loving son in the Holy Spirit. We are made in this image.
The image we are made in is reciprocal, not a forced commodity.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m not misunderstanding anything. I know what the doctrine of Purgatory is about.

You do misunderstand. You said that the passage did not do something I specifically showed you from the Catechism. That is Catholic theology. That you don’t agree with it, is irrelevant. That passage is, in fact, used for the doctrine.

If you think it’s not, let’s start another thread in which we dissect the passage in detail.

Divide and conquer… I did not see that coming… . Totality of Scriptures, that is what needs to be discussed.

And accepting what a church teaches no matter what it teaches is also a very dangerous line to walk.

Who is the pillar and bulwark of the truth? It is significantly more dangerous to walk outside this pillar and bulwark.

It would seem so. I’m trying to see their view as being only a weakened gospel rather than another gospel.

And your colors finally come shining through. You have made yourself an authority above both Churches. Not only that, but you have the audacity to determine that both offer a weak gospel. And you said: “you are trying”, which only indicates that your true feelings are rather worse than what you are posting.

And the burden is totally yours. You are saying that both Churches are wrong. You have to demonstrate this assertion.

What I call not elevating reason to such a degree that I won’t believe something unless it conforms perfectly to my reasoning ability.

It is a paradox and by your own admission outside the scope of reasoning. Not only that, it appears to completely disregard the book of James. A Holy Book of Scriptures.

Not at all. I appealed to a careful reading of Scriptures to determine what Paul was teaching in Romans and Galatians. I was not appealing to a careful reading of Scriptures to make everything in it understandable and to avoid paradox, i…e, to make James and Paul perfectly harmonized. That was the point.

We must not isolate books or verses. There is no reconciliation in this method. But the totality of Scriptures must reconcile it. That is your own principle. Scriptures, being the final norm, does not support faith alone by the mere presence of James and Paul’s own writings in 1 Cor 13. Those are explicit writings that trump any implicit writings.

 

[rcwitness]

It’s also very difficult to show that Trent’s teaching on meritorious works is in accord with Scripture. I won’t touch on the EOC since they don’t teach meritorious works, at least not explicitly like Trent did. And it is vital for Catholics to make sure that their church’s teaching matches Scripture, since the CC claims that both tradition and Scripture are twin streams of divine revelation–hence they must agree.

You have to twist Scripture to not acknowledge the Catholic meaning of ‘Merit eternal Life’
In the Mass, we say "Grant that we may merit everlasting life. It is not a merit outside the humble conversion of the Christian, but exactly the opposite. Its being doers of the Word, even if it is merely pure contrition and confession (like the thief on the cross).

Revelations 22 (RSV-CE)

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, **that they may have the right to the tree of life ****and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

That’s just it: the 1 Cor. 3 text does not support purgatory. It says nothing that even hints at purgatory, for the reasons I’ve already stated. Like I said, if you’d like to start dissecting the passage verse by verse in a separate thread, I’m all for it.

I choose to take that passage in light of the others I reference, regarding the ‘prison’ and ‘beating’ aspects of the purging of the faithfull. I wont go any further on it here. If you wish to open a thread Id like to join in**

 

[Koineman]

Since our churches copied, formulated, debated, defended and translated Scripture, as well as, in a historic sense, formed the great orthodox understandings of doctrine based on Scripture, I don’t see how we would need to defend the idea that our doctrine lines up with it. The founders of our churches authored it.

I just told you why. Church teaching, if true, must line up with scripture. All you are doing here is attempting to wriggle out from under the burden of proof.

Thus, we have nothing to discuss.

God bless you.

 

[Koineman]

You have to twist Scripture to not acknowledge the Catholic meaning of ‘Merit eternal Life’
In the Mass, we say "Grant that we may merit everlasting life. It is not a merit outside the humble conversion of the Christian, but exactly the opposite. Its being doers of the Word, even if it is merely pure contrition and confession (like the thief on the cross).

Revelations 22 (RSV-CE)

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, **that they may have the right to the tree of life ******and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

I choose to take that passage in light of the others I reference, regarding the ‘prison’ and ‘beating’ aspects of the purging of the faithfull. I wont go any further on it here. If you wish to open a thread Id like to join in

 

[Koineman]

Rcwitness: I will start a thread later on the 1 Cor 3 passage. My intention will be, as I said earlier, to go through it verse by verse to understand what Paul’s intention was.

That will be my main focus. We can go outside the passage to other texts, but we will need to be careful to avoid rabbit trails.

 

[Koineman]

I will name the thread something like “For RCwitness: Purgatory and 1 Cor. 3”

 

[Koineman]

That sounds great! I’m sure there would be other church members who’d be interested, as well… I’m out in Manassas, by the way.

I used to live out there at old Bull Run, but now I am in Arlington. I will PM you with more info.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Thank you, Koineman. You’ve inspired me to look up more deeply the Confessional Lutheran view on Justification and some of CFW Walther’s views on the subject and I find them powerfully convincing. cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=J&word=JUSTIFICATION backtoluther.blogspot.com/2012/03/quotes-of-cfw-walther-on-doctrine-of.html. Indeed, God does everything and while we can walk away from our faith and lose our salvation by persistent rejection of the Lord, God gives grace to His elect by keeping them in the One True Faith by Word and Sacrament.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I used to live out there at old Bull Run, but now I am in Arlington. I will PM you with more info.

Okay, thank you.

 

[Koineman]

Regarding this issue of faith and justification, I am starting to think that perhaps none of our churches have a perfect grasp on it, hence the ongoing difficulty in reconciling James with Paul through so many centuries. I am starting to think that the RCC and EOC focus on the works aspect and emphasize that heavily, while Protestant churches focus on the faith aspect. these differences in emphasis go on because of that difficulty in reconciling James with Paul. This is why I am also starting to think that it is not an issue of who is wrong but rather of accepting that there is paradox here and thus both sides are true in some way I cannot understand.

That thought is surely an abomination to the rationalists among us, but at this point it is what I am beginning to suspect about this whole issue.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Regarding this issue of faith and justification, I am starting to think that perhaps none of our churches have a perfect grasp on it, hence the ongoing difficulty in reconciling James with Paul through so many centuries. I am starting to think that the RCC and EOC focus on the works aspect and emphasize that heavily, while Protestant churches focus on the faith aspect. these differences in emphasis go on because of that difficulty in reconciling James with Paul. This is why I am also starting to think that it is not an issue of who is wrong but rather of accepting that there is paradox here and thus both sides are true in some way I cannot understand.

That thought is surely an abomination to the rationalists among us, but at this point it is what I am beginning to suspect about this whole issue.

Point taken. The important thing ( to me) is the faith that is manifested through good deeds. Frankly, I don’t see any conflict between the two at all. " Faith without works is dead." " We are justified by faith, so that no man may boast." That justifying faith puts forth fruits. I’ve seen more fruit of faith develop as a Lutheran than ever I had before in my previous denominations. LCMS is the vessel the Holy Spirit worked through to bring me to faith. Unless the Holy Spirit calls me to another Communion and I don’t see that as being likely, I’m home.

 

[clem456]

Regarding this issue of faith and justification, I am starting to think that perhaps none of our churches have a perfect grasp on it, hence the ongoing difficulty in reconciling James with Paul through so many centuries. I am starting to think that the RCC and EOC focus on the works aspect and emphasize that heavily, while Protestant churches focus on the faith aspect. these differences in emphasis go on because of that difficulty in reconciling James with Paul. This is why I am also starting to think that it is not an issue of who is wrong but rather of accepting that there is paradox here and thus both sides are true in some way I cannot understand.

That thought is surely an abomination to the rationalists among us, but at this point it is what I am beginning to suspect about this whole issue.

It is somewhat of a paradox.
Rather than trying to reconcile things that don’t need reconciling, it seems to me that Catholicism finds faith and works integrated and unified as part of the relationship with God. It is not that one is emphasized over the other.

 

[rcwitness]

Regarding this issue of faith and justification, I am starting to think that perhaps none of our churches have a perfect grasp on it, hence the ongoing difficulty in reconciling James with Paul through so many centuries. I am starting to think that the RCC and EOC focus on the works aspect and emphasize that heavily, while Protestant churches focus on the faith aspect. these differences in emphasis go on because of that difficulty in reconciling James with Paul. This is why I am also starting to think that it is not an issue of who is wrong but rather of accepting that there is paradox here and thus both sides are true in some way I cannot understand.

That thought is surely an abomination to the rationalists among us, but at this point it is what I am beginning to suspect about this whole issue.

This is lacking very little to have Communion

But as for the red highlighted comment… we also have Jesus’ own words which weigh in a bit.

P.S. A thread with my handle on it, regarding purgatory! I never would have dreamed that would happen back when I was Evangelical Free. See ya round my friend.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I just told you why. Church teaching, if true, must line up with scripture. All you are doing here is attempting to wriggle out from under the burden of proof.

Thus, we have nothing to discuss.

God bless you.

No, I am not. I never said that we could not prove it from Scripture; only that the one making the positive claim (i.e., that the gospel preached by those who deny sola fide are preaching a false or weakened gospel) bears the burden of proof. Since we’ve preached the same gospel for 2000 years, founded the churches throughout the world, held the ecumenical councils, formulated the doctrines you yourself hold to, etc. we don’t have to prove anything. The johnny come lately’s do.

 

[Koineman]

Point taken. The important thing ( to me) is the faith that is manifested through good deeds. Frankly, I don’t see any conflict between the two at all. " Faith without works is dead." " We are justified by faith, so that no man may boast." That justifying faith puts forth fruits. I’ve seen more fruit of faith develop as a Lutheran than ever I had before in my previous denominations. LCMS is the vessel the Holy Spirit worked through to bring me to faith. Unless the Holy Spirit calls me to another Communion and I don’t see that as being likely, I’m home.

But James specifically says that a person is also justified by works, so he seems to go beyond merely saying that works are the necessary accompaniment of saving faith–unless we qualify that statement from the context, which, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, all of us are more than willing to do regarding other passages (e.g., Jesus’ statement that whatever we ask for we will receive, if we believe).

 

[Koineman]

It is somewhat of a paradox.
Rather than trying to reconcile things that don’t need reconciling, it seems to me that Catholicism finds faith and works integrated and unified as part of the relationship with God. It is not that one is emphasized over the other.

With Trent’s statement about merit, that is not easy to agree with.

 

[rcwitness]

With Trent’s statement about merit, that is not easy to agree with.

Did you miss these passages in your discernment?

Revelations 22 (RSV-CE)

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11** Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy**.”

12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 ****Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

 

[Koineman]

Divide and conquer… I did not see that coming… .

Huh? That was not my intention AT ALL. I just didn’t want to hijack this thread. You could give me the benefit of the doubt.

And your colors finally come shining through. You have made yourself an authority above both Churches.

At bottom, NOBODY can avoid that charge. Why? Because everyone who decides to join a particular church has to evaluate the data to determine that THAT church is superior to the others. In that process, everyone is making himself an authority above churches.

But I sense in this last post of yours a tone of anger and hastiness to judge, so I am skeptical of how fruitful dialogue with you would be.

God bless you.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

With Trent’s statement about merit, that is not easy to agree with.

Any statement about merit is not easy to agree with, apart from the merits of Christ. Which are more than sufficient for all, but efficacious for many.