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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Well put.
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Genesis315
Guest
I think it works both ways. I’m willing to bet there are a few formal Catholics out there who are not truly united to the Church.
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jimmy
Guest
I agree.
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JGC
Guest
**162 **Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/162.htm
837 … Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/837.htm
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Steven_Merten
Guest
hello Jimmy,
In a way the Church has defined who is within the bosom of the Church by defining who is not within the bosom of the Church. Anyone anathematized by Church leaders is cut off from the body of the Church and put outside the Church by the power of the Keys to the Kingdom which Jesus left with St. Peter. It would be my guess that the main reason for the Church to go to such great lengths to define “no salvation outside the Church” is to back up their power and authority of disipline in the Church through anathema.
Please visit Throwing Stones
AnathemaIn passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.” Whereupon all the assistants respond: “Fiat, fiat, fiat.” The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha.
Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm
**NAB MAT 16:13 **
Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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reen12
Guest
Dear thessalonian,
“All who have not willfully and knowingly rejected the Church may be joined to it.” quote, thessalonian
Would you please give me your definition of ‘willfully’?
Thanks,
reen12
“All who have not willfully and knowingly rejected the Church may be joined to it.” quote, thessalonian
Would you please give me your definition of ‘willfully’?
Thanks,
reen12
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JGC
Guest
Steven Merten:
Pope John XXIII
catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261i.htm
The Church has always opposed these errors, and often condemned them with the utmost severity. Today, however, Christ’s Bride prefers the balm of mercy to the arm of severity. She believes that, present needs are best served by explaining more fully the purport of her doctrines, rather than by publishing condemnations.
Pope John XXIII
catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0261i.htm
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello JGC,
How is that working out for Her? Are Catholics just falling in line today in a eutopia of faithfulness and obedience to Jesus compared to the old days when Church leaders disiplined the flock with anathemas? Has the Church disengaged any of the automatic anathemas attached to Church encyclicals? When the Church calls upon Jesus, in virtue of the keys to the Kingdom, to automatically hold sins bound and damn anyone who does not believe in, say, Real Presence in the Eucharist, how does that work when She just disregards telling anyone about it anymore but leaves the anathema activated? Would it not be better and actually merciful to actually remove the anathema rather than just appear merciful by not talking about a standing activated automatic anathema?
I do agree with you though. Pope Eugene, as commanded by Christ, pulled out the Catholic big guns and was fully engaged doing battle with the schismatic wolves out to destroy the Church. Pope Johh Paul II later was out to show the world what a glorius, loving, merciful, ecumenical man he was.CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Soteriology is most definitely a doctrine pertaining to faith. This is the soteriology according to Pius XII, and it still remains a wonderful summary of Catholic soteriology today pertaining to salvaiton outside the Church …
Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949), against the dissent and disobedience of Fr. Leonard Feeney from the Archdiocese of Boston:
the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate [Feeneyism] controversy arose from the fact that the [doctrinal matters were] not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the [Feeneyist movement] refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities…
… dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
… no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
… that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
… this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith…
… Hence, one cannot understand how the [Feeneyists] can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of … the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.
Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute … presents himself as a “Defender of the Faith,” and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church…
Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation."
Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949), against the dissent and disobedience of Fr. Leonard Feeney from the Archdiocese of Boston:
the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate [Feeneyism] controversy arose from the fact that the [doctrinal matters were] not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the [Feeneyist movement] refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities…
… dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
… no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
… that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
… this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith…
… Hence, one cannot understand how the [Feeneyists] can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of … the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.
Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute … presents himself as a “Defender of the Faith,” and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church…
Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.” Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation."
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shannon_e
Guest
Salvation is thru Jesus Christ alone.
Salvation is not thru the Church.
From the CCC: (my bolding)
Salvation is not thru the Church.
From the CCC: (my bolding)
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Genesis315
Guest
shannon e:
Well, we are saved by Christ. But the Church is the universal instrument of that salvation (see Dominus Iesus). So saying we are saved by Jesus through the Church is fine I think.
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shannon_e
Guest
It is fine if we are Catholic, and are in good standing with our Church.
But others may be saved by Jesus, through another way. (see CCC)
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Genesis315
Guest
shannon e:
No, they are saved through the Church still, just in a mystical and not obviously apparent way.
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shannon_e
Guest
The CCC states very clearly that the Church is a teacher and mother-- but is not the author of our salvation.
Jesus saves thru a mysterious and unknowable way-- not the Church. Do you deny this?
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"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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Genesis315
Guest
CCC
[775](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/775.htm’) "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament - a sign and instrument, that is, of communion with God and of unity among all men."197 The Church’s first purpose is to be the sacrament of the inner union of men with God. Because men’s communion with one another is rooted in that union with God, the Church is also the sacrament of the unity of the human race. In her, this unity is already begun, since she gathers men “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues”;198 at the same time, the Church is the “sign and instrument” of the full realization of the unity yet to come.
[776](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/776.htm’) As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. "She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all," “the universal sacrament of salvation,” by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men."199 The Church “is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity,” because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit."200
[775](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/775.htm’) "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament - a sign and instrument, that is, of communion with God and of unity among all men."197 The Church’s first purpose is to be the sacrament of the inner union of men with God. Because men’s communion with one another is rooted in that union with God, the Church is also the sacrament of the unity of the human race. In her, this unity is already begun, since she gathers men “from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues”;198 at the same time, the Church is the “sign and instrument” of the full realization of the unity yet to come.[776](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/776.htm’) As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. "She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all," “the universal sacrament of salvation,” by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men."199 The Church “is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity,” because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit."200
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Shannon, with due respect, I do see what you’re trying to say. Even I, though, throughout this argument with Marineboy, would have to say that the saved are saved through the Church, who is the mediator of salvation. They may not know it or care to admit it, but that is how they are saved. "**Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” **I believe, though I cannot say with absolute certainty, that my saintly Baptist grandmother was saved, but she was saved by the means that only the Catholic Church holds in their fullness.
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Genesis315
Guest
All of humanity has been redeemed by Christ. Everyone who is saved, is saved by Christ. Christ founded his Chuch and instituted the sacraments to be the means for us to accept that salvific grace. All who end up being saved have united themselves to Christ and His mystical body, the Church–even if they have united themselves to the Church in an invisible way without knowing it.
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shannon_e
Guest
That section of the CCC is in reference to the Profession of Faith.
It applies to those who have made that profession of faith. (those within the Church). It is not addressing the salvation of those who are outside the Church. These sections do.
Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.[169](javascript
[1257](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/1257.htm’) The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.It says right there: He is not bound by his sacraments (Church, for example).
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Genesis315
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shannon e,
I don’t think you realize we are agreeing here
. We both agree formal membership in the Church is not necessary:thumbsup: . But, being united to the Church is necessary. Non-Catholics who are saved, are still saved through the Church. They are united in a mystical way. The sacrament of Baptism is what normatively makes us members. Now, if one has Baptism of desire (see your CCC quote above) that person is also mystically united to the Church.
I don’t think you realize we are agreeing here
. We both agree formal membership in the Church is not necessary:thumbsup: . But, being united to the Church is necessary. Non-Catholics who are saved, are still saved through the Church. They are united in a mystical way. The sacrament of Baptism is what normatively makes us members. Now, if one has Baptism of desire (see your CCC quote above) that person is also mystically united to the Church.
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Genesis315
Guest
Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964)
More CCC:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, **like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. **
Christ’s Body is the Church. This quote is referring to Protestants here, but it would apply to those baptized by desire.
More CCC:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, **like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. **
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