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jomoco
Guest
So does the Magesterium claim full understanding of Jesus’ mustard seed parable as infallible?
jomoco
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jomoco
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ricmat
Guest
John:15 8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep.
Peter, now repentant, now forgiven, in an incident closely paralleling Peter’s denials of Jesus in front of a charcoal fire, has just been made the new shepherd, since Christ is about to ascend to Heaven.
Mt:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The gates of the netherworld shall NOT prevail against it. The Church will not be overcome, even though individuals in the Church are not perfect.
It should be noted that the Church does not claim that the Pope, or any of its members is perfect here on earth. Infallibility as I recall has only been invoked twice. But the key point is that the magisterium speaks with authority (but not infallibility). We are still bound to respect this authority. This is my understanding.
I’m just a rank amateur with regard to apologetics, but that’s my take on things. Others may be able to give you a better answer.
LATE EDIT: One more - can’t find the exact scripture verse, but immediately after excoriating the Pharisees as hypocrites, Jesus tells the people to follow the teachings of the Pharisees nonetheless - do what they say, not what they do - because they sit on the seat of Moses.
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buffalo
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I would say yes.
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jomoco
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WoundedIcon
Guest
Eh, you gotta understand that they’re only infallible in certain belief-based matters. They could be complete idiots in everything else, but we believe the Holy Spirit keeps them from messing up when it comes to dogma. I mean, can you prove it was ever a pope-taught dogmatic truth that we should execute heretics? because if you can’t, then it was just a huge mistake, not a Church teaching.
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jomoco
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jomoco
Guest
Strikes me as a very flawed sleight of mind method of teaching heads I win, tails you lose.
jomoco
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ricmat
Guest
It is my comment with regard to the scripture itself. My initial post was improperly formatted, and I changed it probably after you quoted it.
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buffalo
Guest
On what basis?
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Walter_Maxey
Guest
Why would you give it 1 year? I was an atheist/agnostic for about 15 years before I decided to be Catholic again.
Can one year of thought by a single brain (educated, or not) really compare to the collective thoughts of 2000 years of the top theologians of the Church?
This takes time. And one should always be open to the truth at any time. No reason to shut things off prematurely (e.g., before death).
I found that if I took the time to really start reading some of the obscure works of the Church Fathers, and then the modern interpretations, I found trends and depth that is not known to the average Catholic who does not invest himself in such efforts. One year does not allow you to dip into that depth.
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jomoco
Guest
On the basis that if any of us had an infallible understanding of Jesus’ mustard seed parable, then the kingdom of heaven would be known and understood here on earth as it is in heaven.
And it’s my opinion that we are presently a long way from any such infallible understandings in the least, quite the opposite could be argued from an objective viewpoint quite easily.
jomoco
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kev_gAC305
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Science and Religion are not contradicting one another. Scientists fatally attempt to contradict religion. In these vain attempts scientists try to deduce the origins of the universe and human beings with the Big Bang Theory and Evolution Theory. The key point is that these are just theories. Theories which have not and cannot be proven. In addition these theories can be disproved. And therefore scientists have no leg to stand on in their opposition.
Persons have disproved the Big Bang Theory and the theory of Evolution with scientists own laws of physics. To disprove the theory of Evolution persons have observed the behaviour of DNA. Every DNA strand is encoded with information. As new information is encountered a DNA strand splits forming a new strand to encode the new information. THerefore the laws of DNA say that every piece of information comes from a previous piece of information. This proves that matter, independent of a divine creator, cannot become a DNA strand. This also proves that the first DNA strand of a human being must come from a “source of information” or an omnipotent being or God the Father.
The Big Bang Theory has been disproved also. The Big Bang theory contradicts laws of thermodynamics. I cannot elaborate as I do not completely understand it. But Sean Carrol, a respected physicist, has disproven the Big Bang (although he is still searching for an answer to the beginning of the universe that he will not find outside of the Lord).
In conclusion because the beginning of all things and persons cannot be true without a Divine Creator science and religion do not contradict one another. Scientists although do not always accept religious beliefs because they have too much pride. John Paul II, a humble man, said that the Church and Scientists should work together and they will both reap rewards.
Like John Paul II, I think faith and science should compliment one another. Someone can use their scientific reasoning to deduce whether something is or is not from God and not to disprove the existence of God(which cannot be done). And faith should be used to worship and practise virtue. Virtue colors every part of one’s life, including studies. Faith and science should be used together. One should not use either Faith or Science but both
Also another important point is that only in America people try to put religion and science opposed to one another. America has a secular culture. Many americans think that if they find one piece of information in the Bible that contradicts science that religion must not be true. For instance, some may think that if the world was not really created in seven days then the story of creation must be completely false. This however is taking the story out of context. The number is to symbolize the creation of a tabernacle which God is to be worshipped in.
In addition, I would like to expand a personal note saying that I used to also believe that faith and science were in opposition. And, as a result I was on the fence between belief and disbelief in God. By grace I came back to the Lord and he has forced me to search for him. I don’t know if you are having the same issues as I have. If you are then have hope. There are answers out there. All these questions have been answered before. For this reason the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years. May God bless you in your search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
-Kevin
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kev_gAC305
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May the Lord Jesus Christ be with you in all that you do and bless you in all your ways.
Ok.
The Catholic Church’s dogmas and doctrine does not attempt to define heaven and what it looks like, what it smells like, and what it feels like. The parables do not do this either.
The parables are not meant to describe the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven cannot be described by man or by words. We would be ignorant to describe the kingdom of heaven.
The Gospels tell us that Jesus explained all the parables in private to his apostles. The apostles knew all the meanings of the parables. But, parables are not church doctrine.
The gospels are not all of Jesus’ three years of ministry. It says in John 21:25- “But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written”.
The apostles had a much greater understanding of the faith then what we can gather out of sacred scripture. The apostles lived with Jesus. Jesus must have taught them many things in private. Jesus did not teach them these things so that they could keep them to themselves but he commanded them to spread the Faith. Mt 16:15 “Go into all the world and proclaim the good news to the whole creation.” The eleven apostles and Paul were the first bishops of the Church.
Jesus not only commisioned the eleven apostles to spread the faith but the authourity to teach the Faith and formulate Church doctrine and dogmas are given to Peter who was the first pope. Mt 16:18-19… “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Jesus gave the pope authority to establish dogmas and doctrine. Church doctrines are facts of God and we know them because God has revealed them to us.The Church has the infallible interpretation of scripture and all revelations. For example one church doctrine is that the Holy Trinity is one God and that Jesus is the second person the Holy Trinity. The Church doctrines and dogmas such as this describe the faith and explain what we humans are to believe on earth.
There is no new teaching in the Catholic Church. The faith that the Church teaches is the same as the apostles gave their successors. The doctrines and dogmas established in the twentieth century have been part of the Catholic Faith since Jesus. The beliefs of the apostles become dogmas and doctrines because they meet opposition and therefore must be clearly defined.
-Kevin
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Paxvobis
Guest
Yes, of course.
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kev_gAC305
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In my previous writings I have not attended the the whole discussion. I do think that whether the sun revolves the earth or the earth revolves the sun is not relevant the the topic of discussion. You all have wasted your breath and tired your fingers more than is needed. This topic does not prove or disprove God and in fact the Church did not deny a heliocentric universe. They were not convinced because they were not yet given the proof of the matter. Once convinced then they accepted this truth along wit hthe rest of the world. But like I said this is irrelevant to the original topic and has strayed from the original question.
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jomoco
Guest
Matthew 13:31-32 tells the parable of the mustard seed: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.”
When read objectively, the very first sentence of the parable likens the kingdom of heaven to a mustard seed planted into a man’s field.
It almost seems to me that many of YOU, not the Popes, are in denial that the Bible itself constitutes hidden mysteries and truths unsolved to date. That the Bible itself beckons each reader to seek for these hidden mysteries until found. That even the possibility that the apostles who wrote/translated the books of the Bible, by virtue of being Jewish, have already fulfilled the prophecy that salvation comes through the Jews?
That the Bible itself contains the keys to heaven when finally understood in its proper context and reveals its hidden knowledge of God?
That it’s the message, not the messenger that is contained in the Bible’s Books?
Can you document either of YOUR two paragraphs above in sacred scripture?
Respectfully,
jomoco
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kev_gAC305
Guest
You are right it does explicitly say that the kingdom of heaven can be described as…etc. But as the Bible is relevant to us human beings on earth and how we can get to heaven the analogy cannot be understood by our faculties of thought or sensation. We live on earth not in heaven. I’d be suprised if anyone can describe the kingdom of heaven based off of this analogy
Please send me the explanation of the kingdom of heaven if you find it. I would love to hear it. But suprised.
God Bless,
Kevin
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kev_gAC305
Guest
The Bible itself does not contain the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Sola scriptura is a false doctrine. The keys to the kingdom of heaven were given to the pope. So to say that if I had to choose between the Bible or the Church and its sacraments then I would choose the Church and its sacraments. Without them it is extremely difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven and less likely we will ever know it.
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Ranp
Guest
Well stated. Saying the Bible is the keys to the kingdom of Heaven is unbibical since the Bible itself says the keys were give to Peter, the first Pope.
Ran
Ran
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Sir_Knight
Guest
When man learns all there is to learn about science, he will look into his microscope and see the eye of God looking back.
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