Faith and Works

[guanophore]

Where did I make that comparison?

Of course there is a distinction between merely human works, and works of the Spirit done through us. There are lots of human works, which appear to be good works, that are not done of the Spirit. Justification must come first, which is by grace alone, through faith alone.

Jon

I think this is where the Catholic view differs. We believe that the Apostles taught that God gives suffficient divine faith to everyone so that they are able to choose to respond to His grace, or not, but it is not just a “human” faith - our human ability to percieve and respond to His grace receives a divine gift, to which we can then respond.

And this work of grace in us, where we respond through faith in believing, is a 'work". It is a 'work of God, to believe in Him".

 

[benhur]

As we continue to respond to and cooperate with the grace God provides, including doing the works He’s planned for us, our justice grows, as faith, hope, and love grow in us. This is why Trent teaches that we can be made just-and justified still. To get an idea what happens when we don’t participate in this striving towards even greater justice, “investing” what we’ve received, read the Parable of the Talents.

Can you be more justified that that which occurs from Calvary ? Holiness and sanctification is more what you speak of,with which we all agree,and does not contradict "faith alone’’.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

How, exactly, is this a difference? I have never been taught otherwise, either in Church or in seminary.

I meant the difference between what I see of Lutheranism in the United States, and what you espouse, which seems more “Catholic”.

American Lutherans have very much separated themselves from the notion that works can continue to justify.

 

[benhur]

Only those who DO THE FATHER’S WILL.

The prodigal son REPENTED.

Ok ,so if I repent of a murder before a judge, I am declared righteous, even given a banquet ?

Blessings

 

[GKC]

I meant the difference between what I see of Lutheranism in the United States, and what you espouse, which seems more “Catholic”.

American Lutherans have very much separated themselves from the notion that works can continue to justify.

There might be a word, then, which recognizes this aspect of Lutherans.

 

[benhur]

The Lord IS MERCY.

God will call us and those WHO HAVE DONE GOOD DEEDS will enter heaven.

Those who feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the sick. Matthew 25:31-46.

I know to some those things do not “mean” that. Of course not.

Romans ch 2

God will render to each person according to what each has done.

The only problem here is that Gos is Just also, and Mercy must go further in Grace. Grace has the idea of imputing, of giving something to someone that he does not have.

As far as works , some will say look at our works and God will say, “Depart from me, I never knew you”.

We are all guilty, and no matter how many good works you do, they do not offset your sin, for if you break one law slightly, you have broken them fully. If I am judged by my works, I am doomed. I must be written in the Book of Life to be judged by the only other standard, faith in Calvary by Grace.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

Were you Taught the bolded part? This is the difference, that we believe the works which come from faith have a part in God’s enduring justification/salvation in us.

I only wish I had been, but alas, I was a victim of some very poor catechesis, and spent most of my early life trying to work my way into God’s good graces because I didn’t “get it”.

 

[fhansen]

Can you be more justified that that which occurs from Calvary ? Holiness and sanctification is more what you speak of,with which we all agree,and does not contradict "faith alone’’.

Blessings

Sure it does. Faith is the doorway to fellowship with God. It does not, by itself, constitute justice for man. Rather that fellowship, itself, with all it entails: the infusion of actual righteousness/ justice /grace/ holiness-God’s life in us- is what makes us just. Not merely an imputed righteousness, but *real *righteousness placed in us, as it had been in Adam. Sanctification cannot be separated from justification because without it, we won’t see heaven.

 

[benhur]

I did ask you to show me one, only one, bible verse that shows either we are justified by faith alone, or our final judgment, is by faith alone. I am still waiting for just that one verse

.

Hi Duane,

Again,nothing explicit with "alone’ but yes implicit.

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Rom.4:5

“And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works;” Rom 11

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5

The latter is the crux of the matter. We speak of “saved” differently. We speak of it as the initial new life, being born again, regenerated. That is by grace thru faith alone.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

Again,nothing explicit with "alone’ but yes implicit.

“And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works;” Rom 11

I see this verse pandered frequently in the works/faith argument, but there is nothing here that implies that faith is “alone”. Saving faith is always accompanied by good works. The fact that salvation is based on grace, through faith, does not exclude the presence of works.They are not the basis by which we are saved, neither are they separated from our salvation.

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5

Again, there is nothing here that implies that works are not involved. We are not saved on the basis of them, but the washing of regeneration (baptism) is itself a good work. Cutting off this passage from it’s context can also be misleading:

5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 5He saved us-- not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy – through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 6He poured out this Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8The saying is trustworthy, and** I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.**

It is clear that our good works are not separated from our salvation, but intracately tied to it. Faith is never 'alone". It always produced the fruits of good works.

The latter is the crux of the matter. We speak of “saved” differently. We speak of it as the initial new life, being born again, regenerated. That is by grace thru faith alone.

Blessings

yes. Catholics hold to the Apostolic teaching on salvation, and they are clear that we are saved when we are regenerated, are being saved throughout this life, and will be saved at the end of it.

 

[benhur]

Sure it does. Faith is the doorway to fellowship with God. It does not, by itself, constitute justice for man. Rather that fellowship, itself, with all it entails: the infusion of actual righteousness/ justice /grace/ holiness-God’s life in us- is what makes us just. Not merely an imputed righteousness, but *real *righteousness placed in us, as it had been in Adam. Sanctification cannot be separated from justification because without it, we won’t see heaven.

Disagree. We are justified by faith alone, and at the same time it goes beyond that . Not only are we pardoned of our murder thru faith that Christ paid the penalty in death meeting the justice, but the Judge also gives us a new righteous nature that hates murder, and has the power not to murder anymore, but do the opposite, and love in return for an insult. All this by grace, by nothing that we have done. It is work of God, not our “work”. Our disagreement now ends after that, for we all agree that now, leaving the courtroom, that new nature walks the journey of faith, yet all life evidences and works to maintain and persevere to the end, being saved to the end, does show forth works still continually wrought in grace.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

yes. Catholics hold to the Apostolic teaching on salvation, and they are clear that we are saved when we are regenerated, are being saved throughout this life, and will be
saved at the end of it.

Hi g,

If it truly is a yes, then that is saved at the beginning by “faith alone”. That is regeneration is by faith alone. And your belief in infant baptism shows regeneration to be even more gracious, by the faith alone of someone else (the godparents).

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Disagree. We are justified by faith alone, and at the same time it goes beyond that . Not only are we pardoned of our murder thru faith that Christ paid the penalty in death meeting the justice, but the Judge also gives us a new righteous nature that hates murder, and has the power not to murder anymore, but do the opposite, and love in return for an insult. All this by grace, by nothing that we have done. It is work of God, not our “work”. Our disagreement now ends after that, for we all agree that now, leaving the courtroom, that new nature walks the journey of faith, yet all life evidences and works to maintain and persevere to the end, being saved to the end, does show forth works still continually wrought in grace.

Blessings

Ok, but that’s saying the same thing, isn’t it- because “it goes beyond that”. We agree that it is all by grace, alone. And that the New Covenant is not about the forgiveness of and remission of sins only but also about the power to overcome sin and walk in newness of life. This means to be made just. This is God’s purpose. As we turn back to Him, the divine Potter, we become malleable clay in His hands, so He may do a work in us unto salvation. And we can turn back *away *at any time, also, failing to persevere, rejecting His grace.

 

[guanophore]

Hi g,

If it truly is a yes, then that is saved at the beginning by “faith alone”. That is regeneration is by faith alone. And your belief in infant baptism shows regeneration to be even more gracious, by the faith alone of someone else (the godparents).

Blessings

Yes, though we have a different understanding about the nature of that faith. For us, saving faith is faith that works. It is a quality of that faith. Parents who baptize their children do so because their faith is “working through love” for their child.

 

[guanophore]

Ok, but that’s saying the same thing, isn’t it- because “it goes beyond that”. We agree that it is all by grace, alone. And that the New Covenant is not about the forgiveness of and remission of sins only but also about the power to overcome sin and walk in newness of life. This means to be made just. This is God’s purpose. As we turn back to Him, the divine Potter, we become malleable clay in His hands, so He may do a work in us unto salvation. And we can turn back *away *at any time, also, failing to persevere, rejecting His grace.

Yes. Our theologies/soteriologies are much closer to each other than either of us are to Reformed traditions (Calvanistic).

 

[benhur]

I see this verse pandered frequently in the works/faith argument, but there is nothing here that implies that faith is “alone”. Saving faith is always accompanied by good works.

Hi g,

Agreed, but that does not address the initial saving by faith alone.

The fact that salvation is based on grace, through faith, does not exclude the presence of works.

Yes, afterwards, after regeneration/justification works become present.

They (works) are not the basis by which we are saved, neither are they separated from our salvation.

Exactly. The basis is by faith alone.

]I see this verse, “And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works;” pandered frequently in the works/faith argument, but there is nothing here that implies that faith is “alone”

Look , I have admitted it is faith* and* works on two thirds of our salvation walk, the present and future, so why can you not admit the beginning ,the initial regeneration/saving, is by faith alone? The verse most definitely implies that, almost explicitly, and works are ruled out. What else is there but gracious faith ?

but the washing of regeneration (baptism) is itself a good work.

This flatly contradicts the scripture. It is not *our *work. Christ explicitly says this is “the work of God”, belief in Christ.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

I have admitted it is faith* and* works on two thirds of our salvation walk, the present and future, so why can you not admit the beginning ,the initial regeneration/saving, is by *faith alone*?

In fact, I think the JDDJ captures it quite well.

The verse most definitely implies that, almost explicitly, and works are ruled out. What else is there but gracious faith ?

Catholics reject the Calvanist notion that we are saved apart from our will. We believe that God’s grace kindles faith in us, then we CHOOSE to place our faith in Him. The fact that we act, and exercise the will, does not mean it is a human work, it just means that we participate in His grace.

 This flatly contradicts the scripture. It is not *our *work. Christ explicitly says this is "the work of God", belief in Christ.

Blessings

Yes, the work of God is to believe in HIm. It is not our work, but Him working in and through us.

 

[fhansen]

Look , I have admitted it is faith* and* works on two thirds of our salvation walk, the present and future, so why can you not admit the beginning ,the initial regeneration/saving, is by faith alone? The verse most definitely implies that, almost explicitly, and works are ruled out. What else is there but gracious faith ?

"…faith working through love", as the only thing that counts? Gal 5:6

 

[benhur]

Yes, though we have a different understanding about the nature of that faith. For us, saving faith is faith that works. It is a quality of that faith. Parents who baptize their children do so because their faith is “working through love” for their child.

I think our understanding of faith is identical. No work is done at initial saving regeneration/justification, save that by God. Otherwise you are saying baptized infant is not saved because no work is demonstrated yet, or “worked” yet.

Of course saving faith will produce a good work,as foreordained.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

"…faith working through love", as the only thing that counts? Gal 5:6

Amen. But every type of qualification you add to faith and our walk is after the initial saved by “faith alone” regeneration,first justification, …afterwards.

Blessings