Faith and Works

[guanophore]

Well, of course, if they are works borne of faith, borne of the Spirit’s work within us. That wasn’t the point. The poster claimed, it seems, that faith was a work of ours. If it is, the it seems Pelagianism must be correct.

You hit this nail on the head, JonNC as you always do. I enjoyed reading Catholic Knight’s posts just before yours. I think that many Catholics do not have sufficient catechesis in how grace works, which is why Catholicism is often mistaken as a “works based religion”. I have to admit that the Lutheran perspective does bring in a lot of balance. The biggest difference, I think is the element of transformation. Catholics believe that we are sealed in grace at baptism, and that the grace continues to sanctify us throughout our lives as we walk in the Good Works he has prepared for us. The works themselves justify us because they are borne of grace, through faith. Anything else, as you say, is Pelagianism.

Of course I can. The works that are borne of faith are of His grace, as well, but it is by faith that we access justification.

It is easy to step outside of His grace, accessed through faith when it comes to “doing good”. I have met a lot of people, and have fallen into this myself as well, who shift from “working out” to “working on”. It is insidious and subtle.

There was no implication on my part that good works are not because of grace. I was only stating that faith is not a work.

It is the work of God, and when we accept HIs grace, His work in and through us transforms us, leading to more “good works”. Faith is a faculty of humanity that is built into our nature. We have a choice about where to place that faith. Everyone is given sufficient grace/revelation to place it in God, but some place it in money, power, etc. When we respond to His grace, and choose to put our faith in Him, it becomes a Work of God.

 

[benhur]

No, God made us better than that-and for better things. He just knows and loves you more than you know and love yourself. He wants us perfect-that’s what He made us for. But it can only be realized in communion with Him, not apart from Him. That’s the basis of the New Covenant.

What, God made us better than needing the imputation of Christ’s righteousness ? What can be better than His righteousness ?

How is it we are seated in heavenly places now where only perfection exists ? How is it we can now enter into the holy of holies? How is it that Job was “perfect” ?

But yes, I understand we shall and are becoming to be like Him, and fully so in that great day.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

But I have given you a link that has multiple biblical passages that show our final judgment is always associated with works and NEVER by faith alone.

Yes Duane, that is our “final” judgement, the judgement seat of Christ for all believers, but that is* not* the judgement that gets you into heaven (or possibly purgatory according to some).

I did ask you to show me one, only one, bible verse that shows either we are justified by faith alone, or our final judgment, is by faith alone. I am still waiting for just that one verse.

Correct. No where is the word “alone” used explicitly, but implicitly yes. The word was used during reformation ( and today if need be) to offset the superfluousness of some works/practices even doctrine of the time.

St. Paul has no problem with people seeking glory.So, would it be for His glory alone, if we are seeking glory for ourselves?

We share in His glory, or rather, He promises to share His glory with us. This we desire. Otherwise you carnalize Paul’s meaning.

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

What, God made us better than needing the imputation of Christ's righteousness ? What can be better than His righteousness ?

Nothing can be better, of course. But Catholics understand imputation differently. The Apostles taught that Jesus did not just doctor the books, but that he really and truly made a “deposit” into the account. His righteousness is infused into us.

How is it we are seated in heavenly places now where only perfection exists ? How is it we can now enter into the holy of holies? How is it that Job was “perfect” ?

By grace, through faith, of course. But God desires that our physical reality be infused with our spiritual reality, so that we live out the FACT that we are seated in the heavens.

Yes Duane, that is our "final" judgement, the judgement seat of Christ for all believers, but that is* not* the judgement that gets you into heaven (or possibly purgatory according to some).

This assertion cannot be squared with many scriptures.

Correct. No where is the word “alone” used explicitly, but implicitly yes. The word was used during reformation ( and today if need be) to offset the superfluousness of some works/practices even doctrine of the time.

Yes.

I think there has been an overcompensation.

 

[fhansen]

What, God made us better than needing the imputation of Christ’s righteousness ? What can be better than His righteousness ?

Of course. He made us to be righteous, not just pretend righteous. He certainly didn’t create us to be sinners. His plan, since the Fall, has been to restore justice to His wayward creation.

 

[benhur]

No assumption nnecessary. The Bible flat out says that the works justified. Now to prove you wrong, I only need one verse, I have already provided many, but one should do.

Again, faith justifies also, and implicitly by itself . Paul even state without works, even righteous works , lest any man boast. .

You lost me here. Can you show me how it nullifies Calvary? Because it has always been Catholic teaching that it is only because of Cavalry that we can have any hope for salvation at all. We are taught that what God accomplished on the cross was sufficient to cleanse us from all iniquity, as Titus 2:11-14 says. All our sufficiency comes from Christ. As the Council of Trent teaches, whatever we do that is righteous, is because it **is God at work **within us (Phil. 2:13).

Any work we do to gain favor or love from God nullifies Calvary. It is saying God will love us more if we are "better’ or "more deserving’’. He can not love you any more than He did at Calvary We are justified by faith in Calvary. Now any work we produce after that is to show and rest in His work, to magnify His justification of us at Calvary, thru faith.

Can you have faith and produce no good works? The Bible clearly says yes, and condemns that faith because it is alone.

Does it say that ? I mean we all have faith in something, even an atheist. But the bible says faith with no works/evidences is not Christian faith. That is not what we mean by faith alone.

I do not know of a single Catholic who says works can produce faith, so a useless statement on your part.

Good, then all say faith produces works. Faith produces new life (which is beyond justification), a life with works. We are saved before “works”. We are saved for works.

Can we retain this new life with no works of charity at all?

So that which began by grace we finish with works of the flesh ? Not sure we do charity to remain "alive’’ in Christ. To be alive abundantly yes.

If yes, then why do works at all?

For His glory and to show forth His life in us, and because it is natural, for the new man. Certainly not to be “saved”.

In two places Paul flat out contradicts you.

Not sure being the greatest and being the key (we are speaking of justificatio) may be different. Furthermore ,not sure we will need faith and hope in heaven , but love will for God is love. And last I heard we can not access that love save thru a gift of faith in His son. Again key, not greatest, but to the greatest.

Yup, another thing the Catholic Church has always taught (“and all by grace, an unearned gift”- benhur post)…

Amen.Halleluiah. Let us not be double minded, or speak from both sides of mouth (myself included)

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Of course. He made us to be righteous, not just pretend righteous. He certainly didn’t create us to be sinners. His plan, since the Fall, has been to restore justice to His wayward creation.

So tell me when the prodigal son returned was he "righteous’’ or was it imputed it to him, fatted calf and all ? ( I mean by Jewish law he was a dead son).

 

[benhur]

I have posted many verses where the bible says He will be judging according to what WE DO.

Yes, every word we utter and thought we hold will be judged, but which judgement, and to what effect?

Furthermore, there are several instances where we are admitted into the kingdom based on who we are and does He know us, are we indwelt by the spirit in rebirth (parable of ten virgins etc).

Blessings

 

[CuriousMike]

Yes, every word we utter and thought we hold will be judged, but which judgement, and to what effect?

Furthermore, there are several instances where we are admitted into the kingdom based on who we are and does He know us, are we indwelt by the spirit in rebirth (parable of ten virgins etc).

Blessings

Your postings seem to suggest we are judged twice.

Can you quote anything that suggests truth in this?

Good works, in and of themselves mean absolutely nothing.

When they arise from our faith in God (by grace), and with intent to do His will - that is what is being referred to.

Saying, “Yes Lord I believe” and then sitting down and doing precisely nothing, watching injustice in the word and not trying to spread (i.e. evangelise) the Good News is negligent.
Even if the position you hold is true, ALL Christians should be so filled with joy that they want to tell everyone about their faith. Evangelisation is a type of “work,” believe it or not.

 

[fhansen]

So tell me when the prodigal son returned was he "righteous’’ or was it imputed it to him, fatted calf and all ? ( I mean by Jewish law he was a dead son).

What makes a person righteous is their communion with the Father, apart from Whom they can do nothing but with Whom all things are possible. Jesus makes this communion possible by reconciling us with God. Until we then turn back to God in faith He cannot or will not do His work in us, of justification, placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds. All righteousness comes from God. Adam thought otherwise-and all mankind entered into an exile from Him.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

So tell me when the prodigal son returned was he "righteous’’ or was it imputed it to him, fatted calf and all ? ( I mean by Jewish law he was a dead son).

Only those who DO THE FATHER’S WILL.

The prodigal son REPENTED.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Only those who DO THE FATHER’S WILL.

The prodigal son REPENTED.

The prodigal son trusted his dad , and righteousness was imputed to him , no doing anything to gain favor .

 

[CatholicKnight3]

What makes a person righteous is their communion with the Father, apart from Whom they can do nothing but with Whom all things are possible. Jesus makes this communion possible by reconciling us with God. Until we then turn back to God in faith He cannot or will not do His work in us, of justification, placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds. All righteousness comes from God. Adam thought otherwise-and all mankind entered into an exile from Him.

The other aspect to take away from the story of Adam and Eve is often overlooked and is as important as their disobedience. Maybe even more important.

The Lord IS MERCY. Always is. Remember, He is I AM. Beginning, the end. He does NOT “become mercy.” He IS MERCY. Even from the beginning.

If it was simple “disobedience” that caused Adam and Eve to be kicked out of Eden, then the Lord would NOT have given either of them an opportunity to acknowledge their disobedience.

Read the story carefully and you will find that the Lord CALLED TO ADAM. He asked Adam if he had eaten of the forbidden fruit. That reveals GOD’S MERCY. God, obviously knew they had disobeyed, but HE asked them anyway.

What did ADAM DO? What did he say? Instead of acknowledging his wrong doing and pleading to the Lord for mercy, he did what humans do. He cast blame onto Eve. Which essentially holds God in contempt every time we make excuses. The response from Adam…“The woman YOU put here, tricked me…:”

Get that? The woman YOOOOOU put here, tricked me." Therefore MY SIN IS REALLY YOUR FAULT. Eve had a similar reaction in that she cast blame on the serpent. The devil made me do it.

The Lord will convict us of sin. The Lord will lead us to the river. God WILL NOT DO FOR US WHAT WE NEED TO DO. There is NO GLORY in that. Life, and it’s whole purpose is the GREATER GLORY OF GOD, manifested through the death and resurrection of the Lord and the redemption of man kind. Our FREE WILL is essential.

Am I saying if they both acknowledged their sin that Christ would not have needed to make a sacrifice. No. That is ridiculous. Christ showed mercy to many before that actual sacrifice. God transcends time. He did not become mercy only “after the sacrifice.” It was plain to see that there were people in heaven before the sacrifice. Moses was. Elijah was.

You want to make God angry? Make excuses for your sin. Do not acknowledge your sin. Even the thief on the cross next to Christ did that. The other one did not. His heart was hardened. Again, that thief repented for those that believe there is NOTHING WE NEED TO DO.

John 5:29…

God will call us and those WHO HAVE DONE GOOD DEEDS will enter heaven.

Those who feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Visit the sick. Matthew 25:31-46.

I know to some those things do not “mean” that. Of course not.

Romans ch 2

God will render to each person according to what each has done.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

The prodigal son trusted his dad , and righteousness was imputed to him , no doing anything to gain favor .

Yet, the father each day looked out on the horizon each day to if his son would return. It is true that the prodigal son and some confession and you could only imagine how often he rehearsed his confession on his journey home.

You could only imagine. While he was still far away, the father saw him. The father went out to meet him. Upon seeing him the prodigal son started to say his well rehearsed confession and the father cut him off. He was overjoyed at the fact that the son had returned.

The prodigal son absolutely repented, and that is essential. The mercy of the father is as essential. To say our actions mean nothing is not biblical. It is a false teaching. Period. Sorry.

 

[KjetilK]

Well, of course, if they are works borne of faith, borne of the Spirit’s work within us. That wasn’t the point. The poster claimed, it seems, that faith was a work of ours. If it is, the it seems Pelagianism must be correct.

I didn’t see any trace of Pelagianism in the post to which you replied. Where, exactly, did he say that faith, or (other) works, are entirely from us? I don’t see it. Assuming that the poster is a Roman Catholic, I rather try to read it in light of what the Roman Catholic teaches, and what I assume he believes. Consider, for instance, this, from the , §2011Catechism:

The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

Of course it can be lost, if we choose to reject grace. One could say that is a work, but it doesn’t save. Obviously.

Our ‘Spirit-filled’ works have soteriological value. If we do not live according to what we have been given, we will not be saved. Salvation cannot be reduced to our initial justification.

Of course I can. The works that are borne of faith are of His grace, as well, but it is by faith that we access justification.

There was no implication on my part that good works are not because of grace. I was only stating that faith is not a work.

The problem is that you said that faith isn’t a work because it “is a gift, which comes via grace.” But if that is the reason, then you would have to say that those works we perform as Christians qua Christians (our ‘Spirit-filled’ works) aren’t works, since they are also gifts “which comes via grace.” You would basically be saying that work aren’t works, which is a self-contradiction.

And faith is a kind of work. It is not manual work, but it is still something we DO. That God enables us to have that faith doesn’t mean that it isn’t something we do (by his grace). And that is also true of our ‘Spirit-filled’ works.

The problem, I think, is that the poster to whom you replied was talking about salvation, and you replied about initial justification. But they aren’t the same thing. Salvation is a genus, and initial justification is a species of that. Salvation, then, includes, but cannot be reduced to, initial justification. Scripture tells us that you need faith to initially be justified, but it doesn’t say that you only need faith to be saved.

 

[KjetilK]

The biggest difference, I think is the element of transformation. Catholics believe that we are sealed in grace at baptism, and that the grace continues to sanctify us throughout our lives as we walk in the Good Works he has prepared for us. The works themselves justify us because they are borne of grace, through faith. Anything else, as you say, is Pelagianism.

How, exactly, is this a difference? I have never been taught otherwise, either in Church or in seminary.

 

[rcwitness]

How, exactly, is this a difference? I have never been taught otherwise, either in Church or in seminary.

Originally Posted byguanophore

The biggest difference, I think is the element of transformation. Catholics believe that we are sealed in grace at baptism, and that the grace continues to sanctify us throughout our lives as we walk in the Good Works he has prepared for us. The works themselves justify us because they are borne of grace, through faith. Anything else, as you say, is Pelagianism.

Were you Taught the bolded part? This is the difference, that we believe the works which come from faith have a part in God’s enduring justification/salvation in us.

 

[KjetilK]

Were you Taught the bolded part? This is the difference, that we believe the works which come from faith have a part in God’s enduring justification/salvation in us.

Yes, and that should be obvious from my previous post.

 

[benjohnson]

And faith is a kind of work. It is not manual work, but it is still something we DO.

I think you may be correct for some of us.

For me, I struggle against faith. Anything remotely redeeming about me is a result of God impressing faith on me.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Do we grow in faith? If so, how so?

Did Peter have “enough faith” at the last supper? How did his faith grow?

How is our faith strengthened?

This really ought to put to sleep the notion of the faith alone doctrine. I mean other than all of the verses I posted in regards to works and how we are judged by our deeds. I know, I know. Those verses (all of them) do not really mean what they say.

Here is this verse.
** 1 Corinthians 13:2

and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.**

That verse should have put this notion to rest along time ago. Is that another verse that does not mean what it says?