Faith and Works

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Hi g,

In short, as you were, you get to the crux of the matter. Indeed it is not just solo fide that is between Catholics and reformed Christians, but also Christ alone, scripture alone and to God’s glory alone (there is one more but it slips my mind) as put put forth by the reformers. My post and your response fit the above like a glove.

Blessings
I remember the first time I heard the postulation that James was talking about “being justified before men” and how much it assaulted my senses. It flies in the face of everything Christ had to teach about any concerns we had to be justified in front of each other.
 
Jon NC, don’t we also have eat his body, (John 6) be born of water and spirit, (John 3) repent of our sin, (Acts 2) obey God’s command to love one another as He loved us?

Seriously, sola fide has no scriptural basis at all.
 
Jon NC, don’t we also have eat his body, (John 6) be born of water and spirit, (John 3) repent of our sin, (Acts 2) obey God’s command to love one another as He loved us?
Absolutely, to all of these.

Question: do you believe that these contradict what we believe sola fide to mean?
I just need to be sure I answer your question clearly?

Jon
 
Every time Jesus talks about judgment, IT IS ALWAYS BASED ON OUR WORKS.
Not totally sure what you mean, for Christ talks of many judgements but "our " judging might refer to Christians being judged. And being judged for what purpose ? Of course our works as Christians are judged, especially leaders and teachers. But is judgement for us always based on "our’’ works ? Again, solo fide, and Christ alone, and grace alone, and consequently for His glory alone.

Blessings
 
Not sure the doctrines of “Christ Alone” and “God’s Glory Alone” are in conflict with Catholic Teaching.

“Faith Alone” and “Scripture Alone” have much in common with the Catholic faith, yet depending on definitions, there is slight differences.
Hi rc,

I think the 5th one is “grace alone”.

I think any differences exhibited on CAF can be shown to have roots in the reformers five “solos”.

Blessings
 
He rejected works of the law, not works of charity. But Paul is pretty explicit here. From Dave Armstrong.
I think Paul includes both works of the law and works of righteousness. Also the two kinds of work intersect in places. And certainly you had both kinds in OT.

Blessings
 
Jon NC, don’t we also have eat his body, (John 6) be born of water and spirit, (John 3) repent of our sin, (Acts 2) obey God’s command to love one another as He loved us?

Seriously, sola fide has no scriptural basis at all.
HiJB,

Shall I say seriously no one is baptized unless one is a believer first (or one who believes in his stead for infants) ? Doesn’t faith come before water baptism ?

Also you must “gnaw” on His body to literally eat as He “commanded” ? Do you “gnaw” ?

Also is not the biggest sin to repent of* not believing *, not having “faith” in Christ ?

Finally, is not the command to love our neighbor as ourselves somewhat rhetorical ? That is, can you really love someone with agape love if you yourself have not received it first, thru faith, from God Himself ?

Blessings

PS- Don’t forget exceeding the Pharisees righteousness, and being “perfect” as the Father is.
 
Again, solo fide, and Christ alone, and grace alone, and consequently for His glory alone.

Blessings
Can you give me the bible verse showing we are either justified, or saved, by faith alone in the context of our final judgment?
 
and consequently for His glory alone.

Blessings
St. Paul has no problem with people seeking glory.
6*who will repay everyone according to his works
7 **eternal life to those who seek glory, **honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
So would it be for His glory alone, if we are seeking glory for ourselves?

Man, there’s those pesky works words again!
 
So you don’t believe Jesus’s words here?
We do believe his words in that verse , it’s saying that no one can be perfect, no matter what they do , it is not supporting works righteousness, as you claim .
 
We do believe his words in that verse , it’s saying that no one can be perfect, no matter what they do , it is not supporting works righteousness, as you claim .
I guess-but only if one endeavors to read between the lines for some reason. Satan must be laughing when we succeed in twisting Jesus’s words into their opposite meaning. Or when we come to conceive of Christianity as a license to remain in sin.
 
I guess-but only if one endeavors to read between the lines for some reason. Satan must be laughing when we succeed in twisting Jesus’s words into their opposite meaning. Or when we come to view Christianity as a license to remain in sin.
 
We do believe his words in that verse , it’s saying that no one can be perfect, no matter what they do , it is not supporting works righteousness, as you claim .
I think that we are having a semantics problem. It seems like your understanding of “works righteousness” is something that does not emanate from God’s grace.

The ergos hagios that are part of our sanctification do not come from ourselves, but through the Spirit of God who is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

Galatians 2:19-20 says:

“I have been crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

When our lives are hidden with Christ in God, it is no longer we who live. It is not of, by, or for ourselves that we do good works, but we are moved by His grace.

Faith and works are inseparable when it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. If I do not have Christ living in me then I will have no works. I will be living in the flesh which leads to death rather than eternal life. We live according to the Spirit, in whom we live, move, and have our being.

We are saved by grace, through faith in order to accomplish these ergos hagios.[Eph 2:8-10]. The reason we say that good works justify is that it is the same grace producing them that produces the faith through which we are saved. As we walk in the good works prepared for us, we remain in right relationship with Him.

It is for these reasons that James says that we are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone. Faith is never “alone”, but is always accompanied by the works through which saving grace is embodied in the person. Catholics believe that righteousness is infused and that our faith and our cooperation in the works prepared by the Father in advance are all created in us by God’s grace and that all the glory goes to God.
 
And it amazes me to see how many will twist Paul to include works in justification,when he explicitly rejected that interpretation.
The Church says we are saved by grace. We first receive this grace at baptism, because we believe the teachings of Jesus on baptism as He handed down through His Church.

This grace takes away all sins, and at the same time it frees us from slavery to sin. The Apostles taught that we are sealed by the HS in baptism, and we are given the deposit of our heavenly inheritance. We are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into light, adopted into the family of God, and grafted into Christ.

It is the Holy Spirit within us that produces the obedience of faith, and enables us to walk in His law. He produces the fruit in us that befits our repentance. These fruits are not “works of the Law” but the work of grace within us.

When Paul is writing about salvation by grace apart from works, he was addressing the Judiaziers who were claiming that Christians had to be circumcised and follow the Mosaic Law. They were telling believers man had to do something in addition to what Jesus did. They were saying the grace of salvation was not enough. Man had to do works on HIS OWN, NOT THROUGH FAITH, NOT THROUGH GRACE, BUT ON HIS OWN. Those were the works of the Law ST. Paul was writing about. They were NOT DONE OUT OF FAITH IN JESUS, THUS THEY COULD NOT SAVE, THEY COULD NOT GIVE THE GRACE OF SALVATION.

The works St. James speaks of are works of obedience to Jesus. Since they are done out of faith in Jesus, by Christians who were already saved by grace, then they given additional grace. Thus he says we are saved by works and NOT by faith alone. The good works “justify” us further by keeping our souls in His grace.

Some Christians don’t seem to be able to distinguish between the two different types of works spoken of in the bible. Works of the Law of Moses cannot give the grace of salvation. Ergos Hagios give us grace because they increase our faith and ability to obey Jesus, and follow the steep and narrow path.

I think it is difficult for many modern evangelicals to grasp that God actually desires to transform us into the image and likeness of His Son, so that we are genuinely holy, rather than just snow covered dung heaps.
 
I think it is difficult for many modern evangelicals to grasp that God actually desires to transform us into the image and likeness of His Son, so that we are genuinely holy, rather than just snow covered dung heaps.
👍 Amen. God wants so much more from us…and for us. He, who’s handiwork we are, knows our potential. He didn’t create us to sin after all and to the extent that He draws us into a willing participation in His work, our justice is greater. He created His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism puts it.
 
Can you give me the bible verse showing we are either justified, or saved, by faith alone in the context of our final judgment?
Name me a good work that makes you regenerate or be born of the spirit ? You must be born again to enter. The new man enters the kingdom. The new man has produced works, but because he enters with works it is wrong to assume that the works justified him also, nullifying the only saving work, Calvary.

Again, Faith produces works . By works you can not produce faith. You are trying to put new wine of grace into old wine skin of works.

No one denies works to show forth this new life, but we do not work to get this life. Faith is the key, even to love, and all by grace, an unearned gift.

Blessings
 
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