Faith and Works

[fhansen]

And if you do , are you “working” on it ?

Sure, I’m working it out with He who works in me.

 

[rcwitness]

Name me a good work that makes you regenerate or be born of the spirit ? You must be born again to enter. The new man enters the kingdom. The new man has produced works, but because he enters with works it is wrong to assume that the works justified him also, nullifying the only saving work, Calvary.

Again, Faith produces works . By works you can not produce faith. You are trying to put new wine of grace into old wine skin of works.

No one denies works to show forth this new life, but we do not work to get this life. Faith is the key, even to love, and all by grace, an unearned gift.

Blessings

you are not saying anything opposed to the Catholic faith here.

You are expressing “Initial Justification” and recognizing it as a free gift, not earned by works.

This faith merely gives the heart illumination to “see” and know Who our salvation is and is from.

Works which have a part in our enduring justification don’t earn justification either. They are merely the response to the faith which we see by.

 

[benhur]

you are not saying anything opposed to the Catholic faith here.

You are expressing “Initial Justification” and recognizing it as a free gift, not earned by works.

This faith merely gives the heart illumination to “see” and know Who our salvation is and is from.

Works which have a part in our enduring justification don’t earn justification either. They are merely the response to the faith which we see by.

Hi rc,

I suppose you are right to a point. For sure this is an old debate from old times, and perhaps some things have changed, even reformed from the middle age time practices.

The terms "faith alone’’ served its purpose, and I suppose is still hanging out in the wings when works other that as you stated lurks its head out again.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Sure, I’m working it out with He who works in me.

Amen. And may He give us rest from bearing any crosses/yolks that need not to be beared.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Amen. And may He give us rest from bearing any crosses/yolks that need not to be beared.

Blessings

His yoke his easy, His burden light- not non-existent.

 

[benhur]

St. Paul has no problem with people seeking glory. So would it be for His glory alone, if we are seeking glory for ourselves?

Man, there’s those pesky works words again!

Does that verse say we seek glory for ourselves?

If anything , the verses show that the outward shows the inward, and is rewarded. The inward produces what is lived out: self seekers who reject truth share in His wrath and anger, or seekers to share in God’s glory and honor thru immortality with Him ( thru an inward faith that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him-giving us “persistence”).

It is good to seek that which He died to bestow upon us, dignity and honor and His glory in us thru eternal life in and like Christ Jesus. He still gets the glory. It is good to run the custom made race that is set before each one of us , set before the foundations of the world were laid, and to complete it, to receive our reward. A true saint will then fully see the* gracious* beginning, middle and end of our persistence in good works.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

His yoke his easy, His burden light- not non-existent.

Only when His righteousness is imputed to us, when His perfection is imputed to us. Otherwise we are never more than halfway to "being there’’ , perfect, or better than Pharisees.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Only when His righteousness is imputed to us, when His perfection is imputed to us. Otherwise we are never more than halfway to "being there’’ , perfect, or better than Pharisees.

Blessings

No, God made us better than that-and for better things. He just knows and loves you more than you know and love yourself. He wants us perfect-that’s what He made us for. But it can only be realized in communion with Him, not apart from Him. That’s the basis of the New Covenant.

 

[Duane1966]

Can you show me one scripture that says you can please the Father without faith (even first) ?

Can you show me where even once I said you could please the Father without faith?

But I have given you a link that has multiple biblical passages that show our final judgment is always associated with works and NEVER by faith alone.

I did ask you to show me one, only one, bible verse that shows either we are justified by faith alone, or our final judgment, is by faith alone. I am still waiting for just that one verse.

And I also asked you a question about your glory alone saying. I am still waiting for an answer. I will ask it again at the end of a statement and biblical verses.

St. Paul has no problem with people seeking glory.

6 who will repay everyoneaccording to his works
7**eternal life to those who seek glory,***honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

So, would it be for His glory alone, if we are seeking glory for ourselves?

 

[Duane1966]

Name me a good work that makes you regenerate or be born of the spirit ?

Have I ever once claimed that a good work makes you regenerate, or born of the Spirit? If yes, show me where.

You must be born again to enter. The new man enters the kingdom.

Yup, very scriptural. Again, can you show me where I claimed otherwise?

The new man has produced works, but because he enters with works it is wrong to assume that the works justified him also,

No assumption nnecessary. The Bible flat out says that the works justified. Now to prove you wrong, I only need one verse, I have already provided many, but one should do.

24See how a person is** justified by works **and not by faith alone.

according to the Bible nullifying the only saving work, Calvary.

You lost me here. Can you show me how it nullifies Calvary? Because it has always been Catholic teaching that it is only because of Cavalry that we can have any hope for salvation at all. We are taught that what God accomplished on the cross was sufficient to cleanse us from all iniquity, as Titus 2:11-14 says. All our sufficiency comes from Christ. As the Council of Trent teaches, whatever we do that is righteous, is because it **is God at work **within us (Phil. 2:13).

Again, Faith produces works.

Can you have faith and produce no good works? The Bible clearly says yes, and condemns that faith because it is alone.

By works you can not produce faith.

I do not know of a single Catholic who says works can produce faith, so a useless statement on your part.

You are trying to put new wine of grace into old wine skin of works.

Another statement that does nothing to further the discussion. I can just as easily say you are trying to enter Heaven with dead faith, but how does that help the discussion?

No one denies works to show forth this new life, but we do not work to get this life.

Can we retain this new life with no works of charity at all? If yes, then why do works at all? If no, then you are saying we are saved by faith and works.

Faith is the key, even to love,

In two places Paul flat out contradicts you.

if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So faith, hope, love remain, these three;h*but the greatest of these is love.

and all by grace, an unearned gift.

Yup, another thing the Catholic Church has always taught.

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

I suppose you are right to a point. For sure this is an old debate from old times, and perhaps some things have changed, even reformed from the middle age time practices.

The terms "faith alone’’ served its purpose, and I suppose is still hanging out in the wings when works other that as you stated lurks its head out again.

Blessings

It was and is and always will be important to Teach the grace of justification/salvation which comes in Jesus Christ.

But it cannot go too far as it has when it denies the role which works actually have. Faith certainly does not earn us justification, so why should we think that the works, which this same faith shows us is right to do, earns us justification either? But works, which come from faith above, are the response and participation in faith. They complete faith as to make faith profitable to us!

If we do not obey faith, did we not have justifying faith at all? No, we did because we believed and we’re given the grace of justification freely. Now, if we reject what faith asks of us, we still have faith but deny it! And in doing that, we would become worse than the unbelievers.

But we don’t have to intellectually profess this stuff to simply have faith and do what faith asks. We just should not accuse what the Church has recognized about the doctrine as being wrong. It’s only necessary to be converted to the point of actual outward change.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

HiJB,

Shall I say seriously no one is baptized unless one is a believer first (or one who believes in his stead for infants) ? Doesn’t faith come before water baptism ?

Also you must “gnaw” on His body to literally eat as He “commanded” ? Do you “gnaw” ?

Also is not the biggest sin to repent of* not believing *, not having “faith” in Christ ?

Finally, is not the command to love our neighbor as ourselves somewhat rhetorical ? That is, can you really love someone with agape love if you yourself have not received it first, thru faith, from God Himself ?

Blessings

PS- Don’t forget exceeding the Pharisees righteousness, and being “perfect” as the Father is.

Yes I eat His body and drink His blood. But then I’d have to go into the whole concept of the Eucharist.

Didn’t Jesus say that if you believe and are baptized, you will be saved? Doesn’t that also mean that you can not be saved even if you believe but have no baptism?

And isn’t faith itself a work? According to Paul himself, love is the greatest virtue of all, exceding only faith.

Remeber when Jesus asked the lawyer what commandments were the greatest? The lawyer answered that we must love God and love others. Do you remember what Jesus said? “Do this and you shall live!”

That statement from Jesus contradicts all of sola fide.

 

[rcwitness]

Does it make sense if I say, faith doesn’t only show us that our salvation came freely through Christ, but faith also shows us how we must behave in order to remain faithful? Neither faith or works earn us the grace of justification, yet both together merit the promise given to us by the author of our faith and the One Who merited faith for us!

 

[JonNC]

=JB Brother 4446;13431246]
Didn’t Jesus say that if you believe and are baptized, you will be saved? Doesn’t that also mean that you can not be saved even if you believe but have no baptism?

Well, yes, but the next line says, “…but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
So the clear message is if one lacks faith. Christ did not exactly say he who is not baptized will be condemned.

And isn’t faith itself a work?

No!! It is a gift, which comes via grace. We can reject grace, and therefore faith, but we cannot choose to seek God, to acquire faith.

According to Paul himself, love is the greatest virtue of all, exceding only faith.

Indeed. But scripture says it is faith that justifies.

Remeber when Jesus asked the lawyer what commandments were the greatest? The lawyer answered that we must love God and love others. Do you remember what Jesus said? “Do this and you shall live!”

That statement from Jesus contradicts all of sola fide.

Not at all. There is a truth here that the love/charity/ works that are pleasing to God are the love/charity/works that flow through us from the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that changes us, drawing us away sin and unbelief, to love of God, and charity toward our neighbor.
" For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;"

Jon

 

[KjetilK]

And isn’t faith itself a work?

Well, aren’t our works also a gift coming via grace?

According to Paul himself, love is the greatest virtue of all, exceding only faith.

Yes, our initial justification. But that doesn’t mean that you cannot be lost. To be saved you have to work out your salvation (Phil. 2:12, James 2:14-26), but that is the work of God within us (Phil. 2:13). And this ties back to my first point. You cannot say that faith isn’t a work because it’s a gift coming via grace, since our works themselves are gifts coming via grace. That would involve a self-contradiction, as it would imply that works aren’t works, since they are gifts coming via grace.

 

[fhansen]

Only when His righteousness is imputed to us, when His perfection is imputed to us. Otherwise we are never more than halfway to "being there’’ , perfect, or better than Pharisees.

Blessings

As we continue to respond to and cooperate with the grace God provides, including doing the works He’s planned for us, our justice grows, as faith, hope, and love grow in us. This is why Trent teaches that we can be made just-and justified still. To get an idea what happens when we don’t participate in this striving towards even greater justice, “investing” what we’ve received, read the Parable of the Talents.

 

[guanophore]

Name me a good work that makes you regenerate or be born of the spirit ?

28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
John 6:27

You must be born again to enter. The new man enters the kingdom. The new man has produced works, but** because he enters with works** it is wrong to assume that the works justified him also, nullifying the only saving work, Calvary.

No one “enters with works”, other than the work of God, which is faith. It is a gift from God, through which we are saved by grace. The ergos hagios have nothing to do with initial justification. All that is needed is faith, which Catholics believe is demonstrated in baptism.

Again, Faith produces works . By works you can not produce faith. You are trying to put new wine of grace into old wine skin of works.

This is where your perspective departs from the Apostolic faith. The Apostles taught that walking in the good works that God has prepared beforehand does produce and strengthen our faith, and sustain us in right relationship with God.

No one denies works to show forth this new life, but we do not work to get this life. Faith is the key, even to love, and all by grace, an unearned gift.

Yes, faith is the key, even to love, and it is all by grace, and unearned gift. It would be more accurate to say that it is "working out’ of our baptismal seal, rather than “working on”.

12*Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence,** work out your own salvation** with fear and trembling;

The “work” is cooperation with saving grace, sealed into us in baptism,

13*for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.Phil 2

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Matthew 5:19-20

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you that** unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law,** you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

---

What does it mean if our RIGHTEOUSNESS surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law? How does it do that? How does our righteousness surpass that?

I asked what it means to be merciful? I have pointed out a couple of times that Christ said those WHO ARE MERCIFUL shall receive MERCY. Do we really have the audacity to suggest to Christ that He can only have mercy on those “we” think He should have mercy on?

Those who engage in that type of presumption ought to be going through a bit of fear and trembling themselves. I would think anyway.

For me the biblical definition of PRESUMPTION can be summed in…“faith without works.”

I have posted many verses where the bible says He will be judging according to what WE DO. Many verses. I am not sure why there was a big long explanation about the separating of the goats from the sheep when Christ judges all of the nations.

Matthew 25:31-46 could have been summed up with one statement if it is FAITH ALONE. I mean, could it not have been said…“Enter into the kingdom of my Father that has been prepared for you, for you had true faith in me.”

Could have saved a lot of time. No, instead Christ went to some specifics. The most interesting part of that is the TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking “when did we ever see you?”

Meaning, it seems to me that there are those who are serving Christ that are not aware they are. Meaning, it seems to me that it is not necessary to be aware that you are serving Christ in order to serve Christ AND to receive mercy FROM CHRIST.

It says it right before our eyes, and we claim that it does not mean what it says? Almost all Christians btw (especially devout Christians) all know that when we serve the “least of these” that we are serving Christ. I am wondering who these people are that will be asking that question. Anyone know who they will be?

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Amen. And may He give us rest from bearing any crosses/yolks that need not to be beared.

Blessings

He actually says this…

Matthew 16:24

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

---

Those who follow Christ can expect many trials. That is to be expected. Not in the beginning. Many martyrs will testify to that truth.

Most of the disciples had faith but not ENOUGH to give their lives for Christ. I myself question if I could give my life for Christ. Oh, I may be able to shout and boast behind my keyboard and be like Peter when he boasted while he was comfortable at the dinner table.

Oh, but if a Roman soldier put a cold steal gladius to my neck and asked if I followed Him? Well, I do want to speculate about that. I certainly do not want to me put to the test like that.

You get the point. There are degrees of FAITH and unless our FAITH gets past “lip service” I am not sure how acceptable it is to Christ. Now most of us will not be having our faith tested with out lives. ALL of us however have more than enough opportunities to put our faith into practice by FEEDING THE POOR etc. We ALL have that opportunity.

We will not have an excuse if we do not put our faith into practice. Yes, we ALL have our crosses to carry.

That, is the word of the Lord. Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ,.

 

[JonNC]

=KjetilK;13432518]Well, aren’t our works also a gift coming via grace?

Well, of course, if they are works borne of faith, borne of the Spirit’s work within us. That wasn’t the point. The poster claimed, it seems, that faith was a work of ours. If it is, the it seems Pelagianism must be correct.

Yes, our initial justification. But that doesn’t mean that you cannot be lost. To be saved you have to work out your salvation (Phil. 2:12, James 2:14-26), but that is the work of God within us (Phil. 2:13). And this ties back to my first point.

Of course it can be lost, if we choose to reject grace. One could say that is a work, but it doesn’t save. Obviously.

You cannot say that faith isn’t a work because it’s a gift coming via grace, since our works themselves are gifts coming via grace

Of course I can. The works that are borne of faith are of His grace, as well, but it is by faith that we access justification.

That would involve a self-contradiction, as it would imply that works aren’t works, since they are gifts coming via grace.

There was no implication on my part that good works are not because of grace. I was only stating that faith is not a work.

Jon