Faith Difficulty and Hell

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This is well-said, even if I agree with the OP more than I likely do with you. I have in other threads attempted to point out that we cannot get away from the divine providence, governance and predestination in all of these matters. All too often, nothing more is offered than a freewill defense for the reality of Hell—as if Godnis just the passive bystander…

You state, “even if it means challenging some recent, popular, modern conceptions of justice and punishment.” At least for my part (and maybe the OP would agree), it’s precisely the reverse of what you’re suggesting here for those of us that balk at humans enduring forever in Hell. As in, I balk at medieval conceptions of justice and punishment—particularly that of St Augustine (but even also of my hero—St Thomas Aquinas). I think St Augustine’s notions of original sin and his doctrine of the massa damnata entailed by original sin are themselves rather wild offenses against a proper notion of justice itself. Iow, to claim, as Augustine does, that the entire human race is deserving of Hell simply because we are descendants of Adam and Eve—and that God in his mysterious ways chooses to save a select few from this eternal damnation—is to claim something frankly “out there.”

So, those of us who hesitate at the Augustinian teaching are challenging the old, medieval, popular conceptions of justice and punishment regarding Hell.
 
EasternCelt said:
Hi All:
What it comes down to is this: if I were to make it to heave, the knowledge that even one “sinner” is being tormented for all eternity by God (and please save the objections that God isn’t tormenting the person because, from scripture, He obviously is) makes the thought of bliss in heaven unimaginable. Please, I’m looking for insight into this apparent lack of empathy in heaven which so vexes my soul.
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What you are saying is “your definition of Good and Evil is greater than God’s definition of Good and Evil”. Respectfully, might I suggest you study man’s “Original Sin”?
 
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OP, I agree with you. I have decided to have an understanding that when we die, where ever we wind up is going to be more beautiful and joyous and loving than anything we can comprehend, as humans. The Church can teach all kinds of things about it, but I choose to just go with my broader understanding (that basically, as humans, we can never know or understand what awaits us). I don’t concern myself with hell.
 
EasternCelt said:
Please, I’m looking for insight into this apparent lack of empathy in heaven which so vexes my soul.
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I didn’t find this book by Hans Urs von Balthasar easy to read . But you may find it worth trying .

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
And there’s a more recent edition with a preface by Bishop Robert Barron too. Definitely worth the struggle to read it!
 
Thank you all for the responses. I remain unconvinced that God is not active in the torments of hell and am convinced that we should rightly be terrified of him. In fact, it is maybe preferable that we had never come into existence.
 
Our visions of hell are strongly influenced by medieval artistic works. These, of course, are the products of the minds of those who put brush to canvas. Church teachings aside ( I am not Catholic) I don’t believe any “hell” is anything more than a temporary state of mind in which people can reflect on life as they lived it and make further choices. I will undoubtedly be challenged in this, but I can’t and don’t believe God has prepared a place of eternal torment for those who, in a matter of merely a few years, have decided they do not want what is on offer. The personal choice of rejecting God remains a matter of ongoing decision but, as I pointed out elsewhere, we do not know the real God and what we are rejecting is nothing more than the man-made concepts of the divine.
 
EasternCelt said:
if I were to make it to heave, the knowledge that even one “sinner” is being tormented for all eternity by God makes the thought of bliss in heaven unimaginable.
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My entire reason for responding to you in this thread was to point out that there is a viable alternative to the view of God as the vindictive judge. In order for you to have an informed, mature opinion on these matters, you owe it to yourself to start by reading the Von Balthasar book referenced above. Plenty of Church Fathers and saints throughout the history of the Church have come down on this issue firmly on the side of God’s grace, mercy and love—not on his justice and condemnation. Put some more effort into this! I hope you do. Be well.
 
Quick question: you say that, based on Scripture (by which I take it you mean the Bible), you believe that Hell consists of God tormenting sinners for eternity. However, the books of the Bible were compiled and officially declared divinely inspired by the Catholic Church. If you believe that Scripture is indeed a trustworthy source, why would you not accept the Catholic Church (and her understanding of Scriptures) as trustworthy also?
 
Because I don’t think people get the Catholic teaching correct which, classically, is that God is actively tossing people there and that people are not choosing to go there.
 
So if I’m understanding you correctly, you think those who don’t believe that God decides if a person is going to hell in fact have a mistaken understanding of the Church’s teaching on Hell (which in turn is based on her interpretation of Scripture and Tradition).
 
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EasternCelt said:
Thank you all for the responses. I remain unconvinced that God is not active in the torments of hell and am convinced that we should rightly be terrified of him. In fact, it is maybe preferable that we had never come into existence.
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The will of God is permissive, that there be free choice allowing the manifestation of love (but also malice).

Evil has no being in itself. A person that does not manifest love is withdrawing from being.
 
Dear EasternCelt:

No need to be like Judas. You do realize that those are the words Christ said of Judas – that it would have been better for him never to have been born.

I think you aren’t Catholic, however, because you didn’t express an understanding of the mercy of Christ, Catholics understand purgatory. Have you heard of it? Purgatory is grounded in books the protestant Bible threw out a few hundred years ago, and has been in oral pass-down for hundreds of centuries. In short it is the place where souls work out their salvation if they have believed in Christ. Look up more on purgatory if you find it useful.
 
This is where I think atheists have it right. They try to live the best life they can, typically in an altruistic manner looking after the business of the day and the people they share the planet with. They don’t worry about what happens when they die. What will be will be. Be the best person you know to be, and don’t worry so much about what happens after you die. As a Catholic, I find it helpful to do the same.
 
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I am a Ukrainian Greek Catholic and I came to this church by way of the Orthodox Church in America, thus I have more books in my bible than you do.

As to your objections, yes, I agree with Christ, it is better for anyone who goes to hell to have never been born. I love my parents, but they’ve subjected me to a cruel reality.

Yes, I have heard of purgatory. Very few people will make purgatory, classically, just like very few will be saved. If we don’t like that, it’s tough, because that is the logical conclusion of the Augustinian-Thomistic continuum which makes up the classic stream of Latin theology.
 
How many people will ultimately make it to Heaven is an entirely different question from whether God actively chooses such an end for them. The Church does not make any claim as to how many there are in Heaven vs. in Hell. However, holding the position that God chooses for the person, rather than the person making the choice freely, is in fact completely contrary to what the Church teaches.

“We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”” (§1033 CCC)

Your underlying assumption seems to be that either a person uses their free will to choose Hell, or God condemns them there. In fact, these two positions are both true.

An analogy would be someone who has in fact committed a heinous crime and has been condemned to a lifelong punishment. This manifestly guilty person has chosen, of their free will, to commit the crime, and pronouncing judgement and condemnation upon them is in no way taking away from the freedom of that choice, but simply announcing the just and inevitable consequences of their actions.

Similarly, when someone dies in a state unrepentant mortal sin, they have died in a state of rejecting God, and so go on rejecting Him forevermore. God condemning them to Hell is not Him choosing for them, but merely ratifying that freely chosen decision. We cannot be united with God if we reject Him, and this is why Hell is understood to be a “state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God.”
 
For those who reach heaven, we will no longer “see through a glass darkly” as St Paul put it. We will see the great justice of God. We will rejoice that God has so respected the choice, the free will, of all mankind that He allows those who chose to reject him to have what they wanted.

No one in hell loves God, they reject Him.
 
EasternCelt said:
Thank you all for the responses. I remain unconvinced that God is not active in the torments of hell and am convinced that we should rightly be terrified of him. In fact, it is maybe preferable that we had never come into existence.
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It’s your choice to have a distorted view of God. But it’s not the Catholic Church’s view of God.
The Gospel is Good News. The Eucharist is gratitude in the midst of the realities of life.

It is your choice to practice these or stubbornly fold your arms in resistance. It’s your choice to live in fear or begin to practice gratitude.
It’s your choice.
 
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What’s Good News? That you are more-than-likely going to be condemned after death, but you do have a slim chance?
 
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