Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[bluelake]

Because there is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation. God has given us the opportunity to cooperate with the grace he has bestowed upon us. It is a gift that we have the option to choose. If we choose to receive that gift we must cooperate in Gods love.

Your reply is confusing.
You said it isn’t required to earn our salvation, then you said we must cooperate.
If grace is a gift we receive this gift as soon as we come to faith.
It is after we are walking with the Lord that the choices we make are sometimes the wrong ones. Then we must repent.
See Eph. 2:8-9

God bless,
bluelake

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
You will also not be able to find the quote " once saved, always saved" in scripture. What does that prove?

In common English, being saved is instantaneous - not for ever. We are saved by the bell, saved from an oncoming train, saved from making a fool of ourselves. None of these examples are permanent. If you are saved once from an oncoming train, it doesn’t mean you can now stand on the tracks with impunity. So saying "saved’ is enough to imply permanence is completely irrational.

Quote:
The New Testament was written approximately 2000 years ago in another language in another culture. To expect an exact quote is ridiculous.

Of Course God has the power to save everyone. That’s not the issue. The question is after he saves you and provides you with the grace to do good works, does he expect you to do so as a requirement to get to heaven. You say, that once you are saved, you have no responsibility to do anything with that gift. Scripture says you are wrong.

Quote:
Maybe this is a point of soul searching for you. These people called Jesus Lord and even did mighty deeds in his name, yet Jesus disowned them because they did evil.

Well, obviously Jesus knows everyone - he’s God. And of course, they were once his. God made everyone. So what is he saying? he’s saying that if you are an evil doer, even if you proclaimed Jesus lord and used his name, you have no part in his kingdom.

Quote:
They undoubtedly thought they were saved, just as you do now. but they didn’t do what Jesus actually required, which was to do the will of his Father.

Away from me you evildoers… Not “get away from me you unbelievers.”

Quote:
Remember, this is in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus laid out his full moral teaching. And just after the verses above, he concluded the sermon with these passages:

Why do you ignore what Jesus says in favor of your man-made theology? Jesus lays out an entire moral code over Chapters 5-7 in Matthew and concludes with the point that if you don’t act on these words, you will be completely ruined. Why can’t you understand that this means that you will not go to heaven if you don’t follow Christ’s teachings. That is what is meant by completely ruined. What else would he mean? And what good is it to say you believe in Jesus if you don’t follow his directions? What kind of Faith is that? IIn fact St. James told you: dead faith…

Quote:
I appreciate your time constraint. And I know you’ve probably addressed many of them just as you have addressed the one above. But the answers weren’t particuarly adequate in retrospect, were they?

What good does God’s grace do you, if you don’t use it to do the works he laid out for you?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Moondweller, let me leave you with a thought. Life is a test to see whether you are suitable for heaven

keep reading…

Quote:
By your actions, you will either support the cause of Christ or you will support the cause of the devil

You call yourself a Christian and yet you wonder why Jesus came? He came to save sinners. That is the sole mission of the Catholic Church - to help people get to heaven.

Quote:
You do the work of Christ if you do works of mercy and love for God and your fellow man. If you do this, you will carry on with it in heaven. However, if you sin and especially if you tempt others to sin and even if you simply fail to do the good works you are called to do, you are doing the work of Satan and will be condemned to continuing to do so in Hell.

So, you are unwilling to help others get to heaven? You find that burdensome? Are you only worried about yourself? I personally have no problems with the conditional 'If". and you use it too. you think you will go to heaven IF you have faith… The calvinists have an If also: IF God chooses you…

Quote:
This is what Jesus was saying in Matthew 25: 31-46.

I know you have tried to rationalize this by saying that the separation is becasue they were goats and sheep. but how did they become goats and sheep The sheep did works of mercy, while the goats refused to help their fellow men. You will try to explain this away by saying that the sheeps did those works because they were saved and we will agree with. you. - they cooperated with the graces and did the works they were called to do. But the goats also called Jesus Lord and they did not do good works. Bottom line, if you aren’t doing works of mercy, you won’t be going to heaven .

.

Quote:
On these pages you sometimes come across as saying that good works are not beneficial to the soul → be careful not to lead people down the path of condemnation…

I have said “good works” are for the saved by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works." They’re reserved for those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” for them - not by them. Good works follow salvation, they are never the cause of it. For instance:
Titus 2:11-14 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.”
It’s those who have been redeemed from every lawless deed, purified (by His blood) and are now His own possession, that are to be zealous for good deed. Good deed follow salvation, they’re not the cause of it.

All the saved enter heaven (what Philthy defines as the KOG). They ALL have their citizenship in heaven (Phil. 3:20-21).

Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Those that go to heaven will do good works. period. In your view, they do these good works BECAUSE they are saved. so be it. But if they don’t, then it must be proof that they aren’t saved, right? Because all the sheep did works of mercy, did they not? And all those goats who didn’t do works of mercy were condemned. So stop condemning Catholics for doing the good works we are called to do. We are zealous for good deeds… and if you aren’t zealous for good works, Shouldn’t you be worried that you are a goat and not a sheep?

As a personal aside, I admire how you keep such an even keel in these discussions…That is not easy to do when having such vigorous debates

 

[Philthy]

Hi Folks-

I won’t be around for a bit and I wanted to throw in my two cents.

MD has unequivocally stated that being “saved” is “the same thing” as inheriting the KOG. He believes that salvation is immediate, complete and permanent at the time one comes to faith in Christ and that everyone who is “born again” (ie saved) goes to Heaven otherwise “salvation is meaningless”.
I challenged this statement by pointing out the obvious difference in how Scripture speaks of being “saved”(born again) vs how Scripture speaks of inheriting the KOG (going to Heaven). This is particularly obvious in 1Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5.
When confronted with the warnings to the Corinthians that “you commit injustice, and this to brothers. Do you not know the unjust will not inherit the KOG? Neither …adulterers, thieves, the greedy…etc etc, will inherit the KOG”, he maintained that Paul was not talking about the behaviors - ie those that do those things - but that he was speaking of those who are (noun) those things because of their unbelief. Two immediate problems with this contention were put forth:

1. The context of the letter shows that Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who were engaged in “injustice” (ie, an act they were do-ing) and he then immediately says, as I quoted above, that the unjust do not inherit the KOG. And he issues this statement as a “warning” to the Corinthians. MDs interpretation of these verses completely obviates any sense of a “warning” - it reduces Pauls comments to: “do you not know the unsaved will not inherit the KOG”, which is plain silly
2. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians (5:21) - where he delivers almost exactly the same message as he does to Corinthians - specifically says that “those who do such things will not inherit the KOG” which directly contradicts MDs claim that it is not the “act” that Paul is condemning.

In response to #2 above, MD has chosen three paths in this discussion:

1. First and foremost, he has chosen not to respond to it.
2. He has instead stated a desire to “tackle” the issue of whether “inheriting the KOG” and being born again “ie saved” are, in fact, synonymous. I responded to his request that I define the KOG, but he as chosen not to respond to it.
3. He has found plenty of time to go off on the rabbit trails of the many worthy issues that PaulC and others have brought up, including the “sheep and goats” issue. I’ve been there with him before, many times…

Lets stay focused on 2 discussions that will really expose the truth.

1. If being “born again” (ie being saved) and “inheriting the KOG” (going to Heaven) are truly synonymous in every respect, then why are they spoken of so differently in Scripture?
2. Is MD prepared to admit that it is indeed “those who DO such things” (Pauls words, not mine) who do not inherit the KOG? And if not - through silence, or statement - why not? It is important for all of us to be prepared to admit that we were mistaken, have mispoken, or were misunderstood. If we cannot do that - or more accurately, if we are not prepared to do so, then why even bother discussing the issues?

Blessings!

 

[paul_c]

Hi Folks-

I won’t be around for a bit and I wanted to throw in my two cents.

MD has unequivocally stated that being “saved” is “the same thing” as inheriting the KOG. He believes that salvation is immediate, complete and permanent at the time one comes to faith in Christ and that everyone who is “born again” (ie saved) goes to Heaven otherwise “salvation is meaningless”.
I challenged this statement by pointing out the obvious difference in how Scripture speaks of being “saved”(born again) vs how Scripture speaks of inheriting the KOG (going to Heaven). This is particularly obvious in 1Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5.
When confronted with the warnings to the Corinthians that “you commit injustice, and this to brothers. Do you not know the unjust will not inherit the KOG? Neither …adulterers, thieves, the greedy…etc etc, will inherit the KOG”, he maintained that Paul was not talking about the behaviors - ie those that do those things - but that he was speaking of those who are (noun) those things because of their unbelief. Two immediate problems with this contention were put forth:

1. The context of the letter shows that Paul is speaking to the Corinthians who were engaged in “injustice” (ie, an act they were do-ing) and he then immediately says, as I quoted above, that the unjust do not inherit the KOG. And he issues this statement as a “warning” to the Corinthians. MDs interpretation of these verses completely obviates any sense of a “warning” - it reduces Pauls comments to: “do you not know the unsaved will not inherit the KOG”, which is plain silly
2. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians (5:21) - where he delivers almost exactly the same message as he does to Corinthians - specifically says that “those who do such things will not inherit the KOG” which directly contradicts MDs claim that it is not the “act” that Paul is condemning.

In response to #2 above, MD has chosen three paths in this discussion:

1. First and foremost, he has chosen not to respond to it.
2. He has instead stated a desire to “tackle” the issue of whether “inheriting the KOG” and being born again “ie saved” are, in fact, synonymous. I responded to his request that I define the KOG, but he as chosen not to respond to it.
3. He has found plenty of time to go off on the rabbit trails of the many worthy issues that PaulC and others have brought up, including the “sheep and goats” issue. I’ve been there with him before, many times…

Lets stay focused on 2 discussions that will really expose the truth.

1. If being “born again” (ie being saved) and “inheriting the KOG” (going to Heaven) are truly synonymous in every respect, then why are they spoken of so differently in Scripture?
2. Is MD prepared to admit that it is indeed “those who DO such things” (Pauls words, not mine) who do not inherit the KOG? And if not - through silence, or statement - why not? It is important for all of us to be prepared to admit that we were mistaken, have mispoken, or were misunderstood. If we cannot do that - or more accurately, if we are not prepared to do so, then why even bother discussing the issues?

Blessings!

Philthy, just a comment about the use of the term " Kingdom of God" as a synonym for Going to heaven. It isn’t always used in that way. i.e " the Kingdom of God is within you"
This is allowing Moondweller to play definitional games with you. However, I think if you use the terms, “Kingdom of Heaven” or “Inherit eternal life”, there can be no mistaking that heaven is meant.

 

[brb3]

Paul c & Pablope … have made the strong case from scripture.

Excellent work Catholic brothers !!!

 

[moondweller]

Philthy, just a comment about the use of the term " Kingdom of God" as a synonym for Going to heaven. It isn’t always used in that way.

Not always? Can you show me where it IS used as meaning, “going to heaven?”

 

[david_friol_1]

Not always? Can you show me where it IS used as meaning, “going to heaven?”

Hey don’t mind if I do!

Matt.19:23-24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 9:45 “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna,”

Luke 18:17 “Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.”

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. " Hey isn’t this Baptism

Acts 14:22 "They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”

1 Cor.6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” And that goes for us believers too!

Gal.5:21 “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Wow! Paul is emphatic about telling us to stay away from “bad works” or we will not be “saved”

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.” I sure hope none of us stumble.

 

[moondweller]

In common English, being saved is instantaneous - not for ever. We are saved by the bell, saved from an oncoming train, saved from making a fool of ourselves. None of these examples are permanent.

Because none of them are about divine salvation which is gifted by God’s grace through faith, “…not as a result of works.” As I pointed out to you before, Paul, we’re not talking about being saved from physical harm or physical death. Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life;* he who believes in Me will live even if he dies**, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die*” (Jn. 11:25-26). The salvation God gifts the believer (“not as a result of works”) transcends physical death. So your analogies fall short. But I’ll ask you, again, what Jesus asked Martha concerning His words to her: “Do you believe this?”

Of Course God has the power to save everyone. That’s not the issue.

I didn’t say that was the issue. I said it has to do with one not believing that God has the power to save to the uttermost (meaning, forever, completely, Heb. 7:25) the one who believes in the Lord Jesus (Acts 16:31). The power of God for salvation is to everyone who believes the gospel of the Person and sacrificial death of His Son on their behalf. And that salvation is, “not as a result of works.”

The question is after he saves you and provides you with the grace to do good works, does he expect you to do so as a requirement to get to heaven.

And the answer to that question is NO. It’s the saved that go to heaven, and salvation is “…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). The saved, by grace through faith…not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9) are now created in Christ Jesus FOR good works that they would walk in them, BUT they were not saved nor created in Christ Jesus BY those works (Eph. 2:10).

You say, that once you are saved, you have no responsibility to do anything with that gift. Scripture says you are wrong.

I said nothing of the sort. I said works will not SAVE you. And Scripture backs me up.

Well, obviously Jesus knows everyone - he’s God.

That’s not the kind of “knowing” that’s meant there in Matt. 7:23. He means they were NEVER His (see 2 Tim. 2:19).

And of course, they were once his.

Not if He NEVER knew them. Never means never.

What good does God’s grace do you, if you don’t use it to do the works he laid out for you?

What kind of God is it who explicitly states that salvation is “BY GRACE” (i.e., apart from merit) and explicitly: “…not as a result of works,” and then state elsewhere that it’s based on works. Not the God of the Bible. Praise and Glory be to God that He is not capricious as men (2 Cor. 1:18-20).2 Cor 1:19-20 “For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.”

 

[moondweller]

Hey don’t mind if I do!

Matt.19:23-24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 9:45 “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna,”

Luke 18:17 “Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.”

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. " Hey isn’t this Baptism

Acts 14:22 "They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”

1 Cor.6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” And that goes for us believers too!

Gal.5:21 “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Wow! Paul is emphatic about telling us to stay away from “bad works” or we will not be “saved”

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.” I sure hope none of us stumble.

None of these actually say “going to Heaven.” Do they?

 

[pablope]

Romans eleven isn’t soteriological. IOW, it’s not about an individual’s salvation or loss of it (an oxymoron). Contextually Romans eleven is about the nation of Israel and the Gentiles: “…a partial hardening has happened to ISRAEL until the fullness of the GENTILES has come in” (i.e., into the church, v. 25). Paul warns the GENTILES (corporately, “Gentiledom”), which are grafted into the Abrahamic covenant of promise (the “holy root”) during this church age, that they stand only by their FAITH (v. 20). Israel (except for the remnant) was/is (temporarily) broken off because of unbelief, and such will happen to the GENTILES for the same reason. Verse 25 is key to understanding the chapter. It’s not about an individual losing his salvation.

Heb. 6 and 10 are the standard, “you can lose your salvation” proof texts. But they are standard warnings to those who after “receiving the knowledge of the truth” (they didn’t believe the truth regarding Christ unto salvation) in unbelief trample under foot the Son of God, and regard as unclean (i.e., common, has no redemptive value or effect) the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace. These “sanctified” mentioned here are not saved (see 1 Cor. 7:14 for a comparison). It’s a sanctification by association, not unto salvation.

So you can choose which part of Scripture to apply to you and which one is not applicable to you? Especially when it contradicts you?

Romans 11

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,(X) provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise(Y) you too will be cut off.

The “natural branches” also refers to those saved, but as V21 says, God will not spare them from being cut off. So will the Gentiles too. But it does provide a condition: “…provided you continue in his kindness.” What ways is it not any clearer?

Hebrews 10:26-27

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by david_friol
Hey don’t mind if I do!

Seriously, Moondweller, what else could thy possibly refer to if not going to heaven? Isn’t Heaven, the kingdom of God in these passages? Why are you fighting the truth so hard? Don’t you want to know it?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
In common English, being saved is instantaneous - not for ever. We are saved by the bell, saved from an oncoming train, saved from making a fool of ourselves. None of these examples are permanent.

If you truly believed in Jesus, you would want to follow in his ways , performing works of mercy that he described and acting with love toward your neighbors. You would be zealous for good works, not constantly deriding those that put their faith into action as “working their way to heaven”. Saying you believe in Jesus saving power is absolutely meaningless, a clanging gong as St.Paul describes it, if you do not love - because love is the essence of Christian teaching.

Quote:
Of Course God has the power to save everyone. That’s not the issue.

Again, you are saved by Faith, not works. But once saved, you need to live the life Jesus taught us to lead or you will be condemned.

Quote:
The question is after he saves you and provides you with the grace to do good works, does he expect you to do so as a requirement to get to heaven.

Right. You get in the state of grace by being baptized, not by doing any works. But once you have been given grace, you are absolutely expected to live a life of love. We have given you dozens of scripture readings to document this and you keep feeding back Ephesians 2: 8-9. You simply can’t condense scripture into 10 words and expect to understand it.

Quote:
You say, that once you are saved, you have no responsibility to do anything with that gift. Scripture says you are wrong.

Right. Works don’t save you. But once saved, you need to live a life of love to get to heaven, otherwise you will be condemned as an unprofitable and ungrateful servant.

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Well, obviously Jesus knows everyone - he’s God.

Right, but they thought they were. They thought disciple ship was saying" Lord, Lord" without actually doing God’s will. sound familiar?

Quote:
And of course, they were once his

Execpt when it doesn’t. Know means Know as well, but you just said above that it wasn’t THAT kind of know… Why isn’t your understanding of this passage the simplest interpretation: Jesus dismissed them because they weren’t doing their works for love. He certainly doesn’t condemn them for their lack of faith. That never comes up in the conversation. What does come up is that they are Evil doers.

Quote:
What good does God’s grace do you, if you don’t use it to do the works he laid out for you?

The kind of God who speaks English correctly and knows that being saved is an instanteous action that rescues you from danger, not something that makes you immune from future danger. You and those who believe like you play all kinds of word games in order to convince themselves that they have some kind of personal guarantee of going to heaven simple because you believe it will happen. Well, my friend, you can find all kinds of scripture verses that say you are saved by faith, because indeed you are. But you ignore or attempt to explain away all the scripure passages that show conclusively that being saved is getting the graces necessary to do the works that will get you to heaven. You are saved as a gift, but then you need to apply that gift to get to heaven.

 

[david_friol_1]

None of these actually say “going to Heaven.” Do they?

No they don’t. But what do you see in them, (for example, 1 Cor.6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.”) that is different than what Paul seems to be saying in that those who do these things should not expect to be “going to heaven”?

 

[brb3]

Romans 11

21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,(X) provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise(Y) you too will be cut off.

Hebrews 10:26-27

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

The above speak very well, and with finality, to the errancy of OSAS. Moondweller would need to due as M. Luther … and start tossing out scripture [even whole books] in order to find support for his ‘opinion’. The whole of scripture is very clear on Salvation [seeing God’s Kingdom]. Prior to our illumination/rebirth by God, thru Christ … all our Works have no salvific efficacy. They may be admirable and worthy in our own eyes, and even in accord with God’s laws … but, even a single infraction of God’s Big 10 would condemn us to hell. And, none has keep them all faithfully. When Christ asked this question of the ‘righteous’ Jewish lawkeepers … they all walked away, unable to cast a stone against the one they accused.

But, once we receive Grace and been ‘saved’ by Faith judged & aquitted of our guilt, thru Faith in Christ’s atonement on Cross for our original & actual sins, — having confessed/repented/and believed Christ our risen Lord, and followed him in Sacramental water Baptism and received Full Pardon from God, reborn/sealed by God, confirmed/illuminated thru the action/infusion of Holy Spirit] … then we’ve been pardoned from sure death, HEALED by Christ, risen from the holy waters into ‘Newness of Life’ & grafted into the Olive Tree of Life. We are SAVED, as long as we continue a viable branch IN CHRIST.

Now Romans 11 and Hebrews 10 speak to our condition/status. Once HEALED of sins … we are not to FALL BACK from the Grace we received, by allowing DISEASE of Sin to reinfest us, and polute our bodies/minds/souls. If we remain ‘baby’ Christians, and don’t mature in discipleship … we are vulnerable to life’s storms and can fall back into unbelief, and risk removal from the Olive Tree / Vine of Christ — thus loss of ‘saved’ status.

Maturing in Christian Discipleship is our INNOCULATION against re-infection. Following Will of God, by following Christ’s New Covenant Commandments Big 2 / Beatitudes] and doing ‘gracious works’ desired of us by God is part/parcel of ‘maturation’ and ‘abiding’ IN CHRIST. The Catholic Church excels in helping the Christian abide IN CHRIST.

So, Md … you/we don’t need to worry about WORKS [Jewish ‘FULL TORAH’ legalism]. But, once you’re illuminated … you will need ANOTHER type of WORKS the ‘gracious’ works perpared for you before foundation of world … the Catholic Works, the Fruit of the Spirit works of Christian Service … that are essential to your maturation in the Way of Christ, and they keep your branch growing in the Vine/Tree of Christ ].

So, its Once I was SAVED, Now we are SAVED, & tomorrow we plan/hope & even are Assured of being SAVED unto our final SALVATION … provided we continue in Faith/Well Doing/Perseverance, by abiding IN CHRIST the vine/tree of Life.

 

[david_friol_1]

Originally Posted by moondweller
Can you show me where it IS used as meaning, “going to heaven?”

Originally Posted by moondweller
None of these ***actually say ***“going to Heaven.” Do they?

Do you see moondweller how you are inconsistant with you complaint? First you complain that the meaning is not “going to heaven” then when shown some verses that prove your own understanding to be slightly off center you change your complaint to it actually saying. The verse is so obvious to "honest’ seekers of God. But you, throughout your whole time here, have been “dancing mightily” around the plain meaning of Sacred Scripture. We all need to approach this with humility not with deflection.

God bless you and your family!

You may want to read them again a little slower this time and Prayerfully too!

Matt.19:23-24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 9:45 “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna,”

Luke 18:17 “Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.”

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. " Hey isn’t this Baptism

Acts 14:22 "They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”

1 Cor.6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” And that goes for us believers too!

Gal.5:21 “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Wow! Paul is emphatic about telling us to stay away from “bad works” or we will not be “saved”

2 Peter 1:10-11 “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.” I sure hope none of us stumble.

 

[moondweller]

Originally Posted by moondweller
Can you show me where it IS used as meaning, “going to heaven?”

Originally Posted by moondweller
None of these ***actually say ***“going to Heaven.” Do they?

Do you see moondweller how you are inconsistant with you complaint? First you complain that the meaning is not “going to heaven” then when shown some verses that prove your own understanding to be slightly off center you change your complaint to it actually saying.

I’m not dancing around anything. Philthy made the claim that being “saved” doesn’t guarantee the “saved” will enter the “kingdom of God” which he defined as “heaven,” and Paul C defined as the love of God. IOW, according to Philthy many of the “saved” will end up in Hell. But where in the verses you provided is the KOG defined as “heaven?” And how is it that the “saved” (by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works) end up in Hell? Lack of “good works?” That would mean salvation by works. Do you not see that such a scenario renders the word “saved” meaningless?

Your verses only tell me who don’t enter or inherit the KOG. Are you assigning a meaningless “salvation” to all of them?

 

[david_friol_1]

I’m not dancing around anything. Philthy made the claim that being “saved” doesn’t guarantee the “saved” will enter the “kingdom of God” which he defined as “heaven,” and Paul C defined as the love of God. IOW, according to Philthy many of the “saved” will end up in Hell. But where in the verses you provided is the KOG defined as “heaven?” And how is it that the “saved” (by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works) end up in Hell? Lack of “good works?” That would mean salvation by works. Do you not see that such a scenario renders the word “saved” meaningless?

Your verses only tell me who don’t enter or inherit the KOG. Are you assigning a meaningless “salvation” to all of them?

Okay the bible is not a dictionary; I hope we could agree with that. I mean it never says in scripture:
**saved-**save1    /seɪv/ Show Spelled
[seyv] Show IPA
verb, saved, sav·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)

1. to rescue from danger or possible harm, injury, or loss: to save someone from drowning.
2. to keep safe, intact, or unhurt; safeguard; preserve: God save the king.
3. to keep from being lost: to save the game.
4. to avoid the spending, consumption, or waste of: to save fuel.
5. to keep, as for reuse: to save leftovers for tomorrow’s dinner.
6. to set aside, reserve, or lay by: to save money.
7. to treat carefully in order to reduce wear, fatigue, etc.: to save one’s eyes by reading under proper light.
8. to prevent the occurrence, use, or necessity of; obviate: to come early in order to save waiting.
9. Theology . to deliver from the power and consequences of sin.
10. Computers . to copy (a file) from RAM onto a disk or other storage medium.
11. Sports . to stop (a ball or puck) from entering one’s goal.

Matt 9:22 Jesus turned around and saw her, and said, “Courage, daughter! Your faith has saved you.” And from that hour the woman was cured.

Matt10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Matt19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”

Matt 24:13, 22 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved… And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.

Matthew 27:42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him.

Mark 10:52 Jesus told him, “Go your way; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed him on the way.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him

Romans 8:24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?

Romans 10:10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;

1 Timothy 2:4,15 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth…But she will be saved through motherhood, ***provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. ***

Now that is a small selection with many different meanings I would say. There are, as you know many more verses but no definition of what saved means is laid out for us. We have to read and seek understanding.

Please answer the question I asked before in regard to the scriptures from the previous posts that you danced around (but not really danced)***But what do you see in them…that is different than what Paul seems to be saying in that those who do these things should not expect to be “going to heaven”? ***
And I am strictly speaking about the phrase in question not who they are speaking to which is just a deflection of yours or as I said a “dance”.

Oh and to answer your question briefly “Are you assigning a meaningless “salvation” to all of them?” No and this I believe has already been spoken of but I will condense it for you. Salvation is very meaningful, but nowhere in scripture does it say that a person who is saved will continue to live as he must in order to persevere to the end. It does not say that the saved can not possibly lose the gift of grace or faith. But it does say in Romans 11:22 “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” ***That is falling away ***

 

[paul_c]

I’m not dancing around anything. Philthy made the claim that being “saved” doesn’t guarantee the “saved” will enter the “kingdom of God” which he defined as “heaven,” and Paul C defined as the love of God. IOW, according to Philthy many of the “saved” will end up in Hell. But where in the verses you provided is the KOG defined as “heaven?” And how is it that the “saved” (by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works) end up in Hell? Lack of “good works?” That would mean salvation by works. Do you not see that such a scenario renders the word “saved” meaningless?

Your verses only tell me who don’t enter or inherit the KOG. Are you assigning a meaningless “salvation” to all of them?

All you do is play word games. I defined the kingdom of God as God’s power active in the world. But it also is used at times as a synonym for heaven. you can tell by the context. Why do you play the lawyer so much…

 

[brb3]

And how is it that the “saved” (by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works) end up in Hell? Lack of “good works?” That would mean salvation by works. Do you not see that such a scenario renders the word “saved” meaningless?

Save(d) is past tense … refers to ones coming to a knowledge of Christ in this life, making repentance, being Justified by Faith, undergoing Baptism, Confirmed in Holy Spirit, and calling Christ their Lord.

Salvation is used to denote the ‘saved/reborn’ who continue in discipleship til their last day … or are recovered by Christ, after a return back into the world/sin and then ‘always’ remain with the Father.

Christ clearly made this distinction for us in Luke 15:29-32 regarding Prodigal and his faithful brother. …"but he answered his father, 'Lo, these many years I HAVE SERVED YOU, AND I NEVER DISOBEYED YOUR COMMAND; yet you never gave me a kid, … But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your living with harlots, you killed for him the fatted calf ! And he said to him, ‘Son, YOU ARE ALWAYS WITH ME, AND ALL THAT IS MINE IS YOURS. It was fitting to make merry and be glad, FOR THIS BROTHER WAS DEAD fallen from grace, apostate,] and is ALIVE; he WAS LOST [unsaved], and is found [saved].’ "

OSAS is w/o valid scriptural basis to be believed by you.