Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[pablope]

The above speak very well, and with finality, to the errancy of OSAS. Moondweller would need to due as M. Luther … and start tossing out scripture [even whole books] in order to find support for his ‘opinion’. The whole of scripture is very clear on Salvation [seeing God’s Kingdom]. Prior to our illumination/rebirth by God, thru Christ … all our Works have no salvific efficacy. They may be admirable and worthy in our own eyes, and even in accord with God’s laws … but, even a single infraction of God’s Big 10 would condemn us to hell. And, none has keep them all faithfully. When Christ asked this question of the ‘righteous’ Jewish lawkeepers … they all walked away, unable to cast a stone against the one they accused.

Now Romans 11 and Hebrews 10 speak to our condition/status. Once HEALED of sins … we are not to FALL BACK from the Grace we received, by allowing DISEASE of Sin to reinfest us, and polute our bodies/minds/souls. If we remain ‘baby’ Christians, and don’t mature in discipleship … we are vulnerable to life’s storms and can fall back into unbelief, and risk removal from the Olive Tree / Vine of Christ — thus loss of ‘saved’ status.

So, Md … you/we don’t need to worry about WORKS [Jewish ‘FULL TORAH’ legalism]. But, once you’re illuminated … you will need ANOTHER type of WORKS the ‘gracious’ works perpared for you before foundation of world … the Catholic Works, the Fruit of the Spirit works of Christian Service … that are essential to your maturation in the Way of Christ, and they keep your branch growing in the Vine/Tree of Christ ].

So, its Once I was SAVED, Now we are SAVED, & tomorrow we plan/hope & even are Assured of being SAVED unto our final SALVATION … provided we continue in Faith/Well Doing/Perseverance, by abiding IN CHRIST the vine/tree of Life.

BRB…

Great explanation. The natural branches also represent the saved, but as Romans 11 say, they could be cut off too. Hebrews 10 says the same thing. But our friend MD seems to pick and choose what he likes to apply to him or explain it away, which I think is a sorf of self defense mechanism to justify to oneself one’s choice.

I will paraphrase a quote: [SIGN]To deny the truth, despite the evidence, is to let prejudice override reason. [/SIGN]

In the end, we can only pray for MD that he overcome his pride.

 

[moondweller]

Save(d) is past tense … refers to ones coming to a knowledge of Christ in this life, making repentance, being Justified by Faith, undergoing Baptism, Confirmed in Holy Spirit, and calling Christ their Lord.

Yes, “saved” is past tense. That doesn’t mean one is being saved in the present tense and hopes to be saved in the future tense. To “have been saved” by grace through faith means a completed act of God. It entails being “born again” out of Adam and into Christ the “Last Adam.” One can no more lose (reverse) salvation (an oxymoron) than one can reverse his birth, either physical or spiritual.

BRB, you can’t be born again out of Adam and into Christ by “good works.” This must be a one time act of God, and that through faith in Christ. You can pour water on someone all day long and they still wouldn’t be “born again.” The requirement, according to Scripture, is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (that’s a personal act - not simply believing that He exists).

What you lack faith in, BRB, is the power of God through Jesus Christ to save forever those who personally believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works (but if you were doing such great works you wouldn’t have time to be on the internet) in hopes that God would recognize your merits, your righteousness, and “save” you. But Paul writes that believers in Christ “have been saved (an act of God) by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works.” And the righteousness required is no less than “the righteousness of God itself, through faith in Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 3:22). IOW, it must be a divinely provided righteousness.

OSAS is w/o valid scriptural basis to be believed by you.

Well, you very well know that Eph. 2:8-9 states that I “have been saved” (not, I will be saved), and Titus 3:5 states that He “saved” me (not, will save me), and not on the basis of deeds which I have done in righteousness. So the fact that I am saved, and that apart from anything I do except believe in the Person and work of God’s beloved Son, is quite Scriptural. Scripture also speaks of the same regarding justification, reconciliation and sanctification. Where then do works come in, you ask? They’re reserved for the saved (by grace through faith); for those now “created in Christ Jesus” for them - not by them (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[david_friol_1]

Originally Posted by brb3
The above speak very well, and with finality, to the errancy of OSAS. Moondweller would need to due as M. Luther … and start tossing out scripture [even whole books] in order to find support for his ‘opinion’. The whole of scripture is very clear on Salvation [seeing God’s Kingdom]. Prior to our illumination/rebirth by God, thru Christ … all our Works have no salvific efficacy. They may be admirable and worthy in our own eyes, and even in accord with God’s laws … but, even a single infraction of God’s Big 10 would condemn us to hell. And, none has keep them all faithfully. When Christ asked this question of the ‘righteous’ Jewish lawkeepers … they all walked away, unable to cast a stone against the one they accused.

Now Romans 11 and Hebrews 10 speak to our condition/status. Once HEALED of sins … we are not to FALL BACK from the Grace we received, by allowing DISEASE of Sin to reinfest us, and polute our bodies/minds/souls. If we remain ‘baby’ Christians, and don’t mature in discipleship … we are vulnerable to life’s storms and can fall back into unbelief, and risk removal from the Olive Tree / Vine of Christ — thus loss of ‘saved’ status.

So, Md … you/we don’t need to worry about WORKS [Jewish ‘FULL TORAH’ legalism]. But, once you’re illuminated … you will need ANOTHER type of WORKS the ‘gracious’ works perpared for you before foundation of world … the Catholic Works, the Fruit of the Spirit works of Christian Service … that are essential to your maturation in the Way of Christ, and they keep your branch growing in the Vine/Tree of Christ ].

So, its Once I was SAVED, Now we are SAVED, & tomorrow we plan/hope & even are Assured of being SAVED unto our final SALVATION … provided we continue in Faith/Well Doing/Perseverance, by abiding IN CHRIST the vine/tree of Life.

BRB…

Great explanation. The natural branches also represent the saved, but as Romans 11 say, they could be cut off too. Hebrews 10 says the same thing. But our friend MD seems to pick and choose what he likes to apply to him or explain it away, which I think is a sorf of self defense mechanism to justify to oneself one’s choice.

I will paraphrase a quote: [SIGN]To deny the truth, despite the evidence, is to let prejudice override reason. [/SIGN]

In the end, we can only pray for MD that he overcome his pride.

I second that pablope, great job brb3:extrahappy: :clapping:

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

What you lack faith in, BRB, is the power of God through Jesus Christ to save forever those who personally believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works

That’s a ridiculous illogical assumption! You PERSIST in attaching your own false interpretation to what people are saying, and therefore believe, in exactly the same way you persist in attaching a false interpretation to Scripture. Your hermeneutics are flawed beyond measure and make you incapable of interpreting anything either said in the Bible, or said by another Christian. Your soteriology has you so boxed in that you can not appreciate, objectively, anything anyone says that varies even a little from your rigid misguided doctrine. You are not only missing 90% of what it means to be a Christian, and 90% of what the Bible teaches, but you are even unable to think properly.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3
Save(d) is past tense … refers to ones coming to a knowledge of Christ in this life, making repentance, being Justified by Faith, undergoing Baptism, Confirmed in Holy Spirit, and calling Christ their Lord.

Indeed, isn’t this last argumetn the one used by Nicodemus with Jesus in John 3 when Jesus said to get to heaven yo uneeded to be born again of water and spirit? But again, we aren’t saying what you assume we are saying. You are saved once through the waters of baptism. from that point on, you must live a new life, the life you were called to lead when you were saved. If you fail to do this, your have wasted your second birth and willl be condemned. Truly, are you really born again, if you are not a changed man?

BRB, you can’t be born again out of Adam and into Christ by “good works.” This must be a one time act of God, and that through faith in Christ. You can pour water on someone all day long and they still wouldn’t be “born again.” The requirement, according to Scripture, is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (that’s a personal act - not simply believing that He exists).

irst of all, no one is claiming to be born again by good works. We all agree that you are born again by grace through Faith in Jesus. We further maintain that you must take the covenential step of being baptized to demonstrate this faith in a real, physical way. On this we disagree, I know, but you have not answered the dozen or so scritpural references that I and others have shown you on this fact. The body of evidence can not be ignored by those truly seeking the truth.

The second area of disagreement is on what happens after this saving event, whether it be baptism or a simple assent of faith as you describe. We maintain that you must live out this faith in love , avoiding mortal sin, to go to heaven. You maintain that nothing more is required of the Christian other than that one time assent of faith. You apparently believe that you don’t even have to continue believing in Jesus, because once saved, you can not be lost. We have shown you perhaps a dozen scriptural verses that support the Catholic position that your faith must be lived to inherit eternal life. Do you still deny this fact?

What you lack faith in, BRB, is the power of God through Jesus Christ to save forever those who personally believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works (but if you were doing such great works you wouldn’t have time to be on the internet) in hopes that God would recognize your merits, your righteousness, and “save” you. But Paul writes that believers in Christ “have been saved (an act of God) by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works.” And the righteousness required is no less than “the righteousness of God itself, through faith in Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 3:22). IOW, it must be a divinely provided righteousness.

Of course it is divinely provided righteousness. God saves us to do his works. If we fail to do his works, we will be condemned. You posted a quote a day or so ago about being Christians being zealous for good works. Well we are. And by the way, explainign the faith on the internet or otherwise, is a spiritual work of mercy.

Quote:
OSAS is w/o valid scriptural basis to be believed by you

Okay, so now you are finally acknowledging verse 10. So good works are created in Christ Jesus. So if you don’t do those works, you are not in Christ Jesus, right? So works are required to enter heaven. That is the simple fact. We are not saved because of these works, it is true. But if we don’t do them, we are not true Christians and will be condemned.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, “saved” is past tense. That doesn’t mean one is being saved in the present tense and hopes to be saved in the future tense. To “have been saved” by grace through faith means a completed act of God. It entails being “born again” out of Adam and into Christ the “Last Adam.” One can no more lose (reverse) salvation (an oxymoron) than one can reverse his birth, either physical or spiritual.

BRB, you can’t be born again out of Adam and into Christ by “good works.” This must be a one time act of God, and that through faith in Christ. You can pour water on someone all day long and they still wouldn’t be “born again.” The requirement, according to Scripture, is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (that’s a personal act - not simply believing that He exists).

What you lack faith in, BRB, is the power of God through Jesus Christ to save forever those who personally believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works (but if you were doing such great works you wouldn’t have time to be on the internet) in hopes that God would recognize your merits, your righteousness, and “save” you. But Paul writes that believers in Christ “have been saved (an act of God) by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works.” And the righteousness required is no less than “the righteousness of God itself, through faith in Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 3:22). IOW, it must be a divinely provided righteousness.Well, you very well know that Eph. 2:8-9 states that I “have been saved” (not, I will be saved), and Titus 3:5 states that He “saved” me (not, will save me), and not on the basis of deeds which I have done in righteousness. So the fact that I am saved, and that apart from anything I do except believe in the Person and work of God’s beloved Son, is quite Scriptural. Scripture also speaks of the same regarding justification, reconciliation and sanctification. Where then do works come in, you ask? They’re reserved for the saved (by grace through faith); for those now “created in Christ Jesus” for them - not by them (Eph. 2:8-10).

Read the Parable of the Talents. All of this is explained quite succinctly there. God doesn’t need to give us anything but He does, granting us grace to “invest” however we will-with the consequences described at the end of the story if we don’t. The Parable of the Ten Virgins is likewise applicable here-our diligence, alertness, and readiness are continuously called for. IOW, what we do counts.

 

[moondweller]

Indeed, isn’t this last argumetn the one used by Nicodemus with Jesus in John 3 when Jesus said to get to heaven yo uneeded to be born again of water and spirit?

Yes, He (Jesus) said unless one is born again he cannot see the KOG, and unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the KOG. Your words, “get to heaven,” are not there. We know that Jesus, in context, is talking about a spiritual rebirth, hence, He is speaking of spiritual things and therefore I do not believe He is talking about physical, water baptism, but rather water as figurative for the Word of God (see Eph. 5:26 & Titus 3:5).

You are saved once through the waters of baptism. from that point on, you must live a new life, the life you were called to lead when you were saved. If you fail to do this, your have wasted your second birth and willl be condemned. Truly, are you really born again, if you are not a changed man?

I do agree that one is not truly born again if no change has taken place. Which is one of the reasons I cannot accept the idea of baptismal regeneration, especially infants. A true spiritual rebirth will manifest a new life.

First of all, no one is claiming to be born again by good works. We all agree that you are born again by grace through Faith in Jesus.

Actually you claim water baptism as the agent.

We further maintain that you must take the covenential step of being baptized to demonstrate this faith in a real, physical way.

How does an infant demonstrate such faith. The baptism is imposed upon the child, the infant itself has to capacity to personally believe anything.

On this we disagree, I know,

Yes, we disagree because Scripture reveals that it’s those who had personally believed the message of Christ that were subsequently baptized.

We maintain that you must live out this faith in love , avoiding mortal sin, to go to heaven.

Which is (1) salvation according to works, and (2) a disbelief in that God dealt with the matter of sin, once for all, at Calvary (Heb. 9:26; Jn. 1:29).

You maintain that nothing more is required of the Christian other than that one time assent of faith.

It’s not a “one time” “assent of faith.” One is saved (by God, in the true sense of the word) at the “moment” of personal faith in Jesus Christ. It’s at this moment of faith that the believer is regenerated (born again) by the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming alive to the things freely given (gifted) to him by God. He understands that his salvation is a “gift of God, not as a result of works”

You apparently believe that you don’t even have to continue believing in Jesus, because once saved, you can not be lost.

At the time of spiritual rebirth the unbeliever (a state of being) becomes a believer (a state of being). An unsaved one (a state of being) becomes a saved one (a state of being).

We have shown you perhaps a dozen scriptural verses that support the Catholic position that your faith must be lived to inherit eternal life. Do you still deny this fact?

You have shown me verses that you interpret as conditions to be met in order "to inherit eternal life." But then “eternal life” is not “inherited” at all but rather “rewarded” based on works, nor is that inherited life “eternal” (i.e., everlasting).

Of course it is divinely provided righteousness.

But, Paul, the righteousness that’s provided is the “righteousness of God,” and that through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe (see Rom. 3:22; 4:6; 2 Cor. 5:21).

God saves us to do his works.

No He doesn’t. Salvation was HIS work through Jesus Christ.

If we fail to do his works, we will be condemned.

Then you are saved by works because you contend that one is finally saved only IF he does said works.

You posted a quote a day or so ago about being Christians being zealous for good works.

Yes, Titus 2:11-14. But in context those who are “zealous for good works” are a people who have been redeemed (purchased by Christ’s blood) from every lawless deed, and purified (cleansed by Christ’s blood) for God’s own possession.

Okay, so now you are finally acknowledging verse 10.

I’ve always acknowledged Eph. 2:10.

So good works are created in Christ Jesus.

No, Eph. 2:10 doesn’t say that at all. But rather those in vv. 8-9 who have been saved by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works are those who are now "created in Christ Jesus FOR good works. It’s not the works that are created in Christ Jesus, but those who have been saved by grace through faith. Eph. 2:10 does not contradict nor is separated from 2:8-9.

So if you don’t do those works, you are not in Christ Jesus, right?

That’s a corrupt interpretation. Only those who are saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9), and who are now “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10) will, or can, do said works. Those works are FOR the saved (by grace through faith…not as a result of works), who are “created in Christ Jesus.” One is NOT “saved” nor “created in Christ Jesus” BY doing said works - which is your whole argument and logic.

So works are required to enter heaven.

See what I mean?

That is the simple fact. We are not saved because of these works, it is true. But if we don’t do them, we are not true Christians and will be condemned.

This whole statement is a blatant contradiction and contrary to Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[moondweller]

Read the Parable of the Talents. All of this is explained quite succinctly there. God doesn’t need to give us anything but He does, granting us grace to “invest” however we will-with the consequences described at the end of the story if we don’t. The Parable of the Ten Virgins is likewise applicable here-our diligence, alertness, and readiness are continuously called for. IOW, what we do counts.

Such is your interpretation of those parables based on your works based salvation. One should not build doctrine on parables but on the clear teachings of Scripture. One can interpret a parable any way one desires.

 

[ignatius777]

Such is your interpretation of those parables based on your works based salvation. One should not build doctrine on parables but on the clear teachings of Scripture. One can interpret a parable any way one desires.

So parables have no teaching purpose and are seperate and apart from what the bible intends to teach? So you believe parables are like breaks or commercials in the bible? How is it one can interpret parables anyway one wishes but not with scripture? We see multiple interpretations of scripture significantly different enough that non catholic christians have thousands of denominations from which to choose. Or are you suggesting all those denominations are based on parable interpretations?

 

[moondweller]

So parables have no teaching purpose and are seperate and apart from what the bible intends to teach? So you believe parables are like breaks or commercials in the bible?

Not at all. My point was they must be interpreted in conjunction with Scripture. Did not the man who did nothing with the talents given to him have a corrupt understanding of God?Matt 25:24-25 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no {seed.} 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'Is this evaluation true? What does Jesus say in Matt. 11:29? Works are valuable, yes, but not for salvation or done out of fear and the wrong motives based on an erroneous view of God. I do not believe this parable is about salvation but being a good steward.

And what about the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:1ff)? It’s about readiness for when Christ (Israel’s Messiah) returns. What is said of the ten virgins who had no oil and were shut out of the wedding feast? He said: ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ The virgins are those who wish to participate in the wedding feast - they’re not the bride herself (the church). The parable is about entrance into Christ’s earthly, Millennial Kingdom when He returns to this earth. Similar to the separation of the sheep and goats in Matt. 25:31ff.

These parables have nothing to do with the church (identified as the bride of Christ) saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, which will return with Him at His parousia. The context of these parables is “immediately after the tribulation of those days” which Christ described in the previous verses: Matt. 24:15-28. They apply to national Israel not the church or her (the believer’s) salvation.

How is it one can interpret parables anyway one wishes but not with scripture?

The point is you can’t impose your soteriological construct on those parables. You must understand first to whom they apply and the purpose of their teaching.

We see multiple interpretations of scripture significantly different enough that non catholic christians have thousands of denominations from which to choose. Or are you suggesting all those denominations are based on parable interpretations?

I have no idea what these “thousands of denominations” are. But if you’re under the impression that Christianity up until the time of the “Reformation” was monolithic in all it’s beliefs, you’re delusional.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

The point is you can’t impose your soteriological construct on those parables. You must understand first to whom they apply and the purpose of their teaching.

Coming from you, this is as startling as Baalam’s donkey starting to speak. :clapping: But can you abide by your own words??

 

[fhansen]

Such is your interpretation of those parables based on your works based salvation. One should not build doctrine on parables but on the clear teachings of Scripture. One can interpret a parable any way one desires.

One can interpret Scripture anyway one desires-satan gives a clear example of this in the desert with Jesus.

 

[brb3]

Point 1.) Yes, “saved” is past tense. To “have been saved” by grace through faith means a completed act of God. It entails being “born again” out of Adam and into Christ the “Last Adam.” One can no more lose (reverse) salvation (an oxymoron) than one can reverse his birth, either physical or spiritual.

Point 2.) You can pour water on someone all day long and they still wouldn’t be “born again.”

Point 3.) Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works (but if you were doing such great works you wouldn’t have time to be on the internet) in hopes that God would recognize your merits, your righteousness, and “save” you.

Another Point 1 matter.) Titus 3:5 states that He “saved” me (not, will save me), and not on the basis of deeds which I have done in righteousness. So the fact that I am saved, and that apart from anything I do except believe in the Person and work of God’s beloved Son, is quite Scriptural.

Point 3. ) Where then do works come in, you ask? They’re reserved for the saved (by grace through faith); for those now “created in Christ Jesus” for them - not by them (Eph. 2:8-10).

Moondweller …

You need to learn to ‘rightly divide’ the scriptures … as Paul teaches us in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a WORKman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” Did Paul say a FAITHman ? No ! Paul knows we always must have Faith … but, Paul also knew we must be Workmen, whose lives manifest both faith & WORKS. This is what the Epistle of James also speaks to. Not the LEGALISM works you think is being discussed.

Next, you keep mixing up your understanding of SAVED [Reborn] … and Salvation [entry to Heaven]. I know the Protestants are to blame for your misunderstanding on what Save(d) means … so lets examine your Points above and ‘rightly divide’ them from scriptures.

---

Point 1.) We agree that SAVE(d) is past tense. It refers back to our CONVERSION event, when we first trusted Christ on basis of FAITH. We may of had some works at that point-in-time, but they were rubbish. Only the Work of Christ on Cross justified us before the Father, we were GIFTED our SAVEd status, based on ‘Grace thru Faith’ in God. Not of Legalistic Works, lest any man boast. [Eph. 2:8-9 supports, so does Titus 3:5]. Catholics accept this, just as you believe … but, we also see essential need to follow Christ in Water Baptism, as taught at Pentecost and forever since !
So, SAVED signifies those Protestants and Catholics [who Trust in Christ thru Faith, and who undergo Trinitarian water Baptism] and are ‘Sealed’ into Christ via annointing of Holy Spirit. Its the WORK of the Holy Spirit that SAVEd us [Healed us] from our original & actual sins, prior to our Holy Spirit SEALING [via Rebirths into Christ’ Righteousness]. It’s Christ’s work … not ours. So, both Protestant & Catholic can rightly point back in time to our Save(d) Rebirths. But, don’t get STUCK in Neutral Gear. Your life must move forward IN CHRIST … if you live past DAY 1. We are not allowed to remain Baby Christians, basking in our Rebirths, and remaining content with the ‘saving milk’ . We must move forward to maturity IN CHRIST, we must grow to receive the ‘meat’ of our Christian faith. This is 101 Christian Discipleship & Perseverance. At least 80 % of Paul’s Epistles are addressed to the need for the YOUNG ‘baby’ Christians to learn to ‘rightly divide’ scripture … and grow to Maturity in the Faith.

Point 2.) Here too you are wrong. Either the faith of the individual, or the ‘expressed’ faith of the Parents / Godparents [for an infant] … enables the water baptism to remove original sin from the infant. However, Catholics acknowledge that Confirmation is very necessary for that infant, later in life when they reach age of accountability. All of us must Confess Christ as Lord, so infant baptism needs COMPLETION, since actual sins prior to Confirmation need removal … by priestly annointing with Hands/Oil of the Catholic children reaching age of reason, who desire to acknowledge & follow Christ, BY FAITH.
And for those who once received a valid water baptism, the Catholic Church teaches that ADDITIONAL water baptism would be of no efficacy. Pour water over them all day long [as you say] … and it would not do any additional good. This is because we are only born TWICE, not Thrice. Once by man’s Water Baptist [as an appeal to God to SAVE infants from original sins, and once more by God’s Holy Spirit which SAVE(d) us [of age of reason] from actual sins and SEALED us in H.S. Thus, the Catholic Church does not Re-baptize Protestants when they enter the Church. We only get Confirmed, after our first Confession. We then Celebrate the Eucharist [Jewish Todah Thanksgiving meal in OT pre-figured the NT Eucharist]. Christ taught his 12, and all other disciples [many who left him] that unless we receive his BODY/BLOOD/DIVINITY in the Lord Supper, we have NO LIFE in us. The Eucharist is the Holy Food of Perseverance … the “Give us our DAILY BREAD”… mentioned in the Lord’s Prayer, taught us by Christ !!!

Point 3.) Only now, … AFTER our REBIRTH / ADOPTION in Christ, does our Lord command us to follow him in performance of GOOD WORKS. And not ours, but those Christ prepared for us, before the creation of the World. GRACIOUS WORKS only. Not ones of OT legalistic origin. Rather, we receive the NT Commandments of Christ to us. The Big 2 Laws encompass the WHOLE OF LAW God desires to ‘grace’ to us. And, we get the fuller understanding of the Big 2 Laws, in Christ’s teaching us the BEATITUDES [Law of Love].

 

[moondweller]

Coming from you, this is as startling as Baalam’s donkey starting to speak.

Nice words of “charity,” ASJ.

But can you abide by your own words??

Absolutely.

 

[moondweller]

One can interpret Scripture anyway one desires-satan gives a clear example of this in the desert with Jesus.

I agree. That’s why we must not impose upon the Scriptures our own preconceived ideas. But allow the Scriptures to teach us.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller …

You need to learn to ‘rightly divide’ the scriptures … as Paul teaches us in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a WORKman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.”

I agree, and I do.

Next, you keep mixing up your understanding of SAVED [Reborn] … and Salvation [entry to Heaven]

A false dichotomy. The saved (the reborn, regenerated, reconciled, justified & redeemed ) and those who enter heaven are one and the same. One’s rebirth cannot be reversed. Nor can one’s redemption, reconciliation, sanctification in Christ, justification or redemption. It’s a creative act of God and the life that comes with it is “eternal” (i.e., everlasting). Reason being is that the saved are now connected to the resurrected Christ, the “Last Adam.” And He cannot die. That’s why Jesus said what He did to Martha in John 11:25-26, and ending it with the question, “do you believe this?” That’s the question, BRB. It’s a question of personal belief. Always was, going all the way back to Abraham, nay, even the Garden.

Point 3.) Only now, … AFTER our REBIRTH / ADOPTION in Christ, does our Lord command us to follow him in performance of GOOD WORKS. And not ours, but those Christ prepared for us, before the creation of the World.

I agree, except it says “which God prepared beforehand.”

GRACIOUS WORKS only.

It states nothing about “gracious works,” it says, “good works.” Nevertheless, just prior to that Paul tells us explicitly that the believer has been saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, “not as a result of works.”

Not ones of OT legalistic origin. Rather, we receive the NT Commandments of Christ to us. The Big 2 Laws encompass the WHOLE OF LAW God desires to ‘grace’ to us. And, we get the fuller understanding of the Big 2 Laws, in Christ’s teaching us the BEATITUDES [Law of Love].

The law (principle of) love is for the saved to live by, not to be saved by: Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness….” IOW, it’s not on the basis of works of any kind, period.Rom 4:6 "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"It’s “apart” from works, my friend. Any works.

 

[Philthy]

Yes, “saved” is past tense. That doesn’t mean one is being saved in the present tense and hopes to be saved in the future tense. To “have been saved” by grace through faith means a completed act of God. It entails being “born again” out of Adam and into Christ the “Last Adam.” One can no more lose (reverse) salvation (an oxymoron) than one can reverse his birth, either physical or spiritual.

BRB, you can’t be born again out of Adam and into Christ by “good works.” This must be a one time act of God, and that through faith in Christ. You can pour water on someone all day long and they still wouldn’t be “born again.” The requirement, according to Scripture, is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (that’s a personal act - not simply believing that He exists).

What you lack faith in, BRB, is the power of God through Jesus Christ to save forever those who personally believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). Therefore you cling to your own efforts, your own righteousness, via works (but if you were doing such great works you wouldn’t have time to be on the internet) in hopes that God would recognize your merits, your righteousness, and “save” you. But Paul writes that believers in Christ “have been saved (an act of God) by grace through faith, as a gift, not as a result of works.” And the righteousness required is no less than “the righteousness of God itself, through faith in Jesus Christ.” (Rom. 3:22). IOW, it must be a divinely provided righteousness.Well, you very well know that Eph. 2:8-9 states that I “have been saved” (not, I will be saved), and Titus 3:5 states that He “saved” me (not, will save me), and not on the basis of deeds which I have done in righteousness. So the fact that I am saved, and that apart from anything I do except believe in the Person and work of God’s beloved Son, is quite Scriptural. Scripture also speaks of the same regarding justification, reconciliation and sanctification. Where then do works come in, you ask? They’re reserved for the saved (by grace through faith); for those now “created in Christ Jesus” for them - not by them (Eph. 2:8-10).

All great MD, but you continue to avoid why Paul condemns “those who do such things” (gal 5) from inheriting the KOG. If there is an irrevocable link between coming to fatih in Christ and going to Heaven, then he wouldnt condemn them for behaviors, he would do so for their unbelief. But he doesnt do this and all your great theology fails to address this simple fact.
I dont believe you have an answer - at least not a reasonable one - and your reapeated avoidance of addressing this issue supports my belief.

 

[Philthy]

Such is your interpretation of those parables based on your works based salvation. One should not build doctrine on parables but on the clear teachings of Scripture. One can interpret a parable any way one desires.

e
Parables are Scripture. False dichotomy, MD. If one can interpret a parable any way one desires, then one can interpret Scripture any way they desire. I submit your hypocrisy on the issue of "those who do such things"as proof of that. In addition I would submit your spin on James 2 “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” as further proof.

 

[ignatius777]

Not at all. My point was they must be interpreted in conjunction with Scripture. Did not the man who did nothing with the talents given to him have a corrupt understanding of God?Matt 25:24-25 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no {seed.} 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'Is this evaluation true? What does Jesus say in Matt. 11:29? Works are valuable, yes, but not for salvation or done out of fear and the wrong motives based on an erroneous view of God. I do not believe this parable is about salvation but being a good steward.

And what about the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:1ff)? It’s about readiness for when Christ (Israel’s Messiah) returns. What is said of the ten virgins who had no oil and were shut out of the wedding feast? He said: ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ The virgins are those who wish to participate in the wedding feast - they’re not the bride herself (the church). The parable is about entrance into Christ’s earthly, Millennial Kingdom when He returns to this earth. Similar to the separation of the sheep and goats in Matt. 25:31ff.

These parables have nothing to do with the church (identified as the bride of Christ) saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, which will return with Him at His parousia. The context of these parables is “immediately after the tribulation of those days” which Christ described in the previous verses: Matt. 24:15-28. They apply to national Israel not the church or her (the believer’s) salvation.The point is you can’t impose your soteriological construct on those parables. You must understand first to whom they apply and the purpose of their teaching.I have no idea what these “thousands of denominations” are. But if you’re under the impression that Christianity up until the time of the “Reformation” was monolithic in all it’s beliefs, you’re delusional.

Your theory on the interpretation of parables vs scritpure needs some work friend

As to the “denominations” I never claimed that christianity was monolithic but the proliferation of “denominations” has grown dramaitically since the “Reformation”. You really need to think before you type

 

[moondweller]

All great MD, but you continue to avoid why Paul condemns “those who do such things” (gal 5) from inheriting the KOG. If there is an irrevocable link between coming to fatih in Christ and going to Heaven, then he wouldnt condemn them for behaviors, he would do so for their unbelief. But he doesnt do this and all your great theology fails to address this simple fact.
I dont believe you have an answer - at least not a reasonable one - and your reapeated avoidance of addressing this issue supports my belief.

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you,** that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God**."The key word here is “practice.” These are unbelievers, my friend. Again, Paul is making the statement that those who “practice” such things will not inherit the KOG. A true believer, one truly regenerated by the Holy Spirit (born again), doesn’t “practice” such things. They may at times “walk in the flesh” and do something listed above, but they do not "practice" such things. Else he’s just one of those who “says” he has faith (James 2:14). For instance, an unbeliever who was baptized and raised in a church going family.

You see, Philthy, Paul tells the true believer to walk by the Spirit and he won’t carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16). IOW, the born again believer, by grace through faith, not as result of works, has that choice. Whereas the unbeliever does not and in darkness practices such things and will not inherit the KOG.

The difference between the true believer who might walk in the flesh and DO an immoral act, and the unbeliever who practices such things, is that the believer’s sin is forgiven (via the cross of Christ), but the unbeliever’s is not, having never believed in Christ to receive the forgiveness of his sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 2:13-14). And for this reason the latter will not inherit the KOG - he’s not saved.

The reason you can’t differentiate between an admonishment and condemnation is that you think you can baptize people into salvation. You think if you baptize someone they’re “saved” (potentially). And now it’s their “vocation” to hang on to that “salvation” (state of grace) by avoiding certain sins, doing good works and piety in order to enter the KOG (judged righteous enough to enter heaven). But this is salvation by works, not by grace through faith. The Scriptures don’t recognize a salvation by works. One is saved by grace through faith, not as a result of works, or one is not saved at all. ALL the saved inherit the KOG and have already entered it. The KOG is made up of all the saved down through the centuries.