Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[brb3]

ALL who have been gifted salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), have been gifted eternal life (Rom. 6:23). Hence they’re guaranteed to enjoy the presence of God forever, since they do not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life (Jn. 5:24). Such is the joy of salvation, gifted by God, by grace through faith, "not as a result of works."Verse 10 of Eph. 2 doesn’t say that the good works are "created, but it’s those who have been gifted salvation by grace through faith that are now “created in Christ Jesus” FOR good works that they should walk in them. Works always follow salvation, not preceded it. Performed by those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” FOR them.

Good works FOLLOW salvation, they’re not the cause of it.

True enuf, … I think most Catholics would agree that our Pre-Justification works are of no value to us. They are covered by Blood of Christ, enabling our Justification.

God’s grace, brings about the faith necessary for: our repentance, oral confession of sins & a desire follow Christ as Lord [Lordship Covenantal Bonding] and undergo Water Baptism [which confers Spiritual Rebirth] ----- Justification by Faith Step 1 of Salvation].

Next, it is imperative we Persevere [for rest of our days] via Step 2 [Justification / Sanctification] … evidenced by ‘fruit bearing’ [gracious works performed by Catholics & Protestants who are Justified IN CHRIST] Such a Soteriology is c/w the full scripture of New Testament.

Tune in John MacArthur’s radio program today … and discover that this Protestant is adamant about the essential need to Persevere in GOOD WORKS after one’s conversion. He provides numerous scripture to show that FAITH ALONE is not enuf. He teaches that many Protestant’s concepts on OSAS are not Bibical … apart from our performace of Gracious Works [prepared/enabled for those who live IN CHRIST] til their final day. He is teaching the Catholic views on Soteriology … at long last

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, does it ever cross you mind that there is an awful lot of discussion about baptism in the new testament for something that you purport to be meaningless?

I see in the Scriptural account that only those who first believed the message of Christ were subsequently baptized? And that salvation, Scripture teaches us is, “by (God’s) grace through (our) faith.”

Its inescapable that Baptism is the sign of the new covenant, replacing circumcision.

The “sign” of the New Covenant is a new heart, i.e., regeneration. It’s those who are regenerated that are subsequently baptized. It depicts they’re having been (spiritually) buried with Christ and now raised to new life in Him, the resurrected Christ. But it’s not the baptism that does it.

You aren’t reading very carefully. What I am describing is living the Christian life after being born again. if you fail to do this, how can you rightfully claim to be born again?

I read very carefully. Here’s what you’re saying, and did actually say:

But if you fail to follow Christ., despite being given the graces to do good works, you will be condemned.

You’re espousing salvation by works. But Paul explicitly states: “…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9).

I didn’t say they were saved by Good works. I said that after they were saved, they needed to do the good works that God prepared for them.

Or else they’re condemned. That’s salvation by works. And Paul says, “…not as a result of works.”

Being saved doesn’t necessarily imply that you will live for ever. Many people have been saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently died of other causes, isn’t it true?

Divine salvation is not the same as rescuing a person from a potentially fatal accident. Divine salvation has the power to cause the believer (who was dead spiritually) to “pass out of death into life,” i.e., eternal (everlasting) life (Jn. 5:24). Jesus said to Martha:John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."The true believer will live even if he dies physically, and will never die because upon belief in Christ he received (was gifted) eternal life. He has "passed out of death (in Adam) into life (in the resurrected Christ). The true believer can no more die than the resurrected Christ can (die). That’s what “saved” means. And I’ll ask you what Jesus asked Martha after He spoke those wonderful words to her: “Do you believe this” (Jn. 11:26b).

 

[brb3]

You’re espousing salvation by works. But Paul explicitly states: “…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:9).Or else they’re condemned. That’s salvation by works. And Paul says, "…not as a result of works.

As John the Baptizer preached, and as Christ did also -----“Demonstrate WORKS befitting true REPENTANCE”

MoonDweller — Faith w/o REPENTANCE is bogus faith. Only ‘theoretical’ faith, which doesn’t lead to LORDSHIP SALVATION. This is what the Catholics are telling you about Catholic ‘gracious works’. They are the evidence of our REPENTANCE … without which no one will see GOD [SALVATION].

So … whenever Paul says we are saved by Faith, [not faith ALONE as said Martin L] … you now know that Paul is teaching that our first Faith, brings us to SAVING REPENTANCE and Rebirth … w/o which no man/woman will see/enter the KINGDOM.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Moondweller, does it ever cross you mind that there is an awful lot of discussion about baptism in the new testament for something that you purport to be meaningless?

Of course you have to have faith in order to be baptized. Baptism is the sign of the new covenant that you believe in Jesus, that you repent of your previous sins and that you want a new life as a Christian. When you are physically baptized, you are born again, recieving the necessary grace to be saved and you are forgiven all previous sins. On your end there are baptismal promises that are said to state your intentions as a re-born Christian:
V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.

V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.

V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

R. Amen.

Quote:
Its inescapable that Baptism is the sign of the new covenant, replacing circumcision.

Have you never read 1Peter3:

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him

Quote:
You aren’t reading very carefully. What I am describing is living the Christian life after being born again. if you fail to do this, how can you rightfully claim to be born again?

Your are selectively quoting, both from me and from scripture, only snippets that support your preconceived view. I said in full:

Quote:
But it goes further than that. Once you are baptized, your sins are forgiven and you are born again into grace (as described in John 3). But then, as a born again Christian, to actually enter heaven, you must do the will of the father (Matthew 7: 21-23), eat his body and drink his blood (John 6), follow the commandments (Matthew 19: 16-19) , love one another as Jesus loved John 13: 34-35), and do works of Mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46). All these things you must do, in addition to what you do, which is to have faith that Jesus will save you

Quote:
I didn’t say they were saved by Good works. I said that after they were saved, they needed to do the good works that God prepared for them.

Paul said that you are saved, not as a result of works. He does not say that you enter heaven without doing good works. In fact, this is what he says in Romans 2:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Being saved doesn’t necessarily imply that you will live for ever. Many people have been saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently died of other causes, isn’t it true?

Sure. the true believer, believes EVERYTHING that Jesus taught and follows him. The TRUE believer doesn’t pick out only what he wants to believer out of scripture. Scripture is more than just John 3:16. or just eph: 2: 8-9. Its 73 books. You must believe it all. And in doing so, the True believer must remain united to the one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[moondweller]

As John the Baptizer preached, and as Christ did also -----“Demonstrate WORKS befitting true REPENTANCE”

MoonDweller — Faith w/o REPENTANCE is bogus faith.

I agree. To “repent” (gr. metanoia) means to change one’s state of mind. After hearing the gospel (good news) concerning Jesus Christ and His sacrificial work on our behalf, Peter told his fellow Jews to “repent,” change their minds about the one they’d crucified and BELIEVE in Him for the forgiveness of their sins. And they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It’s not the repentance by which God saves the repentant one, but "by (His) grace (unmerited favor) through FAITH, a gift of God, not as a result of works. Get that last part? Not as a result of works. IOW, works do not result in salvation. Or, works are not the cause of salvation.

Works are an effect (not a cause) of the salvation which brought about regeneration which caused the saved to become alive to the things of God and the desire to serve Him.

Only ‘theoretical’ faith, which doesn’t lead to LORDSHIP SALVATION.

James talks about a mere “said” faith. One who merely “says” he has faith (empty words). But there is no such thing as “Lordship salvation.” Only salvation “by grace through faith,” which is gifted by God upon belief in Christ, “not as a result of works.”

This is what the Catholics are telling you about Catholic ‘gracious works’. They are the evidence of our REPENTANCE … without which no one will see GOD [SALVATION].

This is nothing short of salvation by works. But Paul says, “…not as a result of works.” But rather “by grace through faith.”

So … whenever Paul says we are saved by Faith, [not faith ALONE as said Martin L] … you now know that Paul is teaching that our first Faith, brings us to SAVING REPENTANCE and Rebirth … w/o which no man/woman will see/enter the KINGDOM.

Catholics claim the act of baptism does all this. And for “cradle Catholics” it’s apart from personal faith, but “faith” by proxy. And I think that’s why works are stressed so much in Catholicism. Personal faith in Christ is not required for what you call “initial” salvation/justification. But in the Scriptures water baptism follows personal faith. And according to the Scriptures, it’s the personal faith in Christ through which God Himself saves the believer, not the baptism. And that salvation is complete having been redeemed (purchased) by the blood of Christ, reconciled to God by His death, and now forever sanctified in the risen Christ, the believer’s new identity (“created in Christ Jesus”), and will be glorified (bodily) with Him.

Redeemed (purchased): 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9;
Reconciled (to God): Col. 1:22
Sanctified (in the risen Christ) Heb. 10:10
Glorified (bodily) Phil. 3:20-21)

This is what salvation is

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3
As John the Baptizer preached, and as Christ did also -----“Demonstrate WORKS befitting true REPENTANCE”

Moondweller,
as usual, you ignore the parts of scripture that don’t agree with your preconcieved theology. In Acts 2: 38-39, Peter says:

38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

You have inappropriately changed his words from be baptized to BELIEVE in HIM

It’s not the repentance by which God saves the repentant one, but "by (His) grace (unmerited favor) through FAITH, a gift of God, not as a result of works. Get that last part? Not as a result of works. IOW, works do not result in salvation. Or, works are not the cause of salvation.

you are unfortunately confused or misled.

1. we are all called by God (that is the first instance of grace)
2. some answer that call (faith) and take the action of engaging in a covenant relationship (baptism). As Peter says above, REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED
3. when we are baptized, we get sufficient grace to go to heaven
4. But we must persist in the state of grace to go to heaven. (do the work’s God wills us to do)

Works are an effect (not a cause) of the salvation which brought about regeneration which caused the saved to become alive to the things of God and the desire to serve Him.

Good works are indeed an effect of God’s grace. But if you fail to do them, you will not go to heaven.

Quote:
Only ‘theoretical’ faith, which doesn’t lead to LORDSHIP SALVATION.

I don’t believe in Lordship salvation either. Salvation is by grace through faith. Going to heaven requires you to live out that faith. Surely, Moondweller, you would agree that “Faith” without works is dead. And a dead faith is worthless toward salvation.

Quote:
This is what the Catholics are telling you about Catholic ‘gracious works’. They are the evidence of our REPENTANCE … without which no one will see GOD [SALVATION].

This is nothing short of salvation by works. But Paul says, “…not as a result of works.” But rather “by grace through faith.”

Salvation is by faith. Going to heaven requires living out that faith.

Quote:
So … whenever Paul says we are saved by Faith, [not faith ALONE as said Martin L] … you now know that Paul is teaching that our first Faith, brings us to SAVING REPENTANCE and Rebirth … w/o which no man/woman will see/enter the KINGDOM.

When children are baptized, its based on the faith of the parents and their agreement to raise the children in the faith. But no onegets the gifts of the holy spirit until they are confirmed and that’s done as an adult decision (typically as teen agers) when they can choose for themselves. Works are not stressed because of infant baptism. Works are stressed because faith without works is dead. (James 2)

And according to the Scriptures, it’s the personal faith in Christ through which God Himself saves the believer, not the baptism.

actually scripture (1Peter 3: 18-22) says:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him

 

[paul_c]

And that salvation is complete having been redeemed (purchased) by the blood of Christ, reconciled to God by His death, and now forever sanctified in the risen Christ, the believer’s new identity (“created in Christ Jesus”), and will be glorified (bodily) with Him.

Redeemed (purchased): 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9;
Reconciled (to God): Col. 1:22
Sanctified (in the risen Christ) Heb. 10:10
Glorified (bodily) Phil. 3:20-21)

This is what salvation is

This is dishonest and wrong. You can’t cut and paste words from scripture to make them state what you want them to state. After all, you could claim any kind of blasphemy was scriptural by cutting and pasting individual phrases. You are down to pulling out single words out of scripture completely out of context. That’s utterly ridiculous. An Athiest could use that technique to show:
God (acts2:30) Died (acts 2: 29)

And he would be just as wrong as you are.

If you want to prove something is actually from scripture, you need to include enough of the passage to fully establish the context.

 

[moondweller]

Sure. the true believer, believes EVERYTHING that Jesus taught and follows him. The TRUE believer doesn’t pick out only what he wants to believer out of scripture. Scripture is more than just John 3:16. or just eph: 2: 8-9. Its 73 books. You must believe it all. And in doing so, the True believer must remain united to the one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Paul, you equated Divine salvation with someone being saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently dying from another cause. Thereby concluding that being saved doesn’t necessarily get you into heaven but can be lost again along the way. But then one is not really “saved,” is he?

Divine salvation is having been saved (rescued) from Divine judgment/condemnation (Jn. 3:18; 5:24), “the second death,” “the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14). Why? Because Christ took our judgment upon Himself, in our stead. He being the Divine Substitute. Our sins imputed to Him, God’s righteousness imputed to all who believe (2 Cor. 5:21). That’s called salvation by GRACE through FAITH, the gift of God, not as a result of works.

It’s sin that separates man from God. So God, in His infinite mercy, sent His Son into the world to be His sin-Bearer, to “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26). God dealt with man’s sins, once for all, 2000 years ago. What He requires from each man now (this side of the cross) is personal faith in Christ, in what He had done for us. Hence, salvation “by grace through faith, a gift…not as a result of (one’s own) works.”

Works follow salvation but are never the cause of it. And salvation through faith in Christ is eternal because it’s based on what Christ did, not what we do.

 

[david_friol_1]

Redeemed (purchased): 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9;
Reconciled (to God): Col. 1:22
Sanctified (in the risen Christ) Heb. 10:10
Glorified (bodily) Phil. 3:20-21)

This is what salvation is

Hey moondweller
you forgot one
Justified James2:24-"See how a person is **justified by works **and not by faith alone.)

God bless you and your family!

 

[david_friol_1]

Paul, you equated Divine salvation with someone being saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently dying from another cause. Thereby concluding that being saved doesn’t necessarily get you into heaven but can be lost again along the way. But then one is not really “saved,” is he?

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,
as usual, you ignore the parts of scripture that don’t agree with your preconcieved theology. In Acts 2: 38-39, Peter says:

38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

And how is it that you exclude personal belief in Christ in this passage when throughout the account of Acts it’s those who personally believed that were subsequently baptized? Do you really think Peter was was telling his Jewish brethren to simply get baptized? I don’t think so, my friend. The call to “repent” is in the context of changing their minds about the One they’d crucified, and to turn from unbelief to belief in the resurrected Christ, their Messiah. And when they did they would receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit by whom they would be sealed in Him, even until the day of redemption of their bodies (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

you are unfortunately confused or misled.

1. we are all called by God (that is the first instance of grace)
2. some answer that call (faith) and take the action of engaging in a covenant relationship (baptism). As Peter says above, REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED
3. when we are baptized, we get sufficient grace to go to heaven
4. But we must persist in the state of grace to go to heaven. (do the work’s God wills us to do)

Good works are indeed an effect of God’s grace. But if you fail to do them, you will not go to heaven.

This is salvation by works; but Paul states otherwise.

I don’t believe in Lordship salvation either. Salvation is by grace through faith. Going to heaven requires you to live out that faith.

Which is salvation by works.

Surely, Moondweller, you would agree that “Faith” without works is dead. And a dead faith is worthless toward salvation.

One cannot overtly demonstrate his faith without works. But, OTOH, works themselves do not necessarily mean true faith. Especially if one is trying to get saved by them, or believes that doing them he will in any way merit salvation. The saved are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph. 2:10), but were not saved by them. Their salvation was by God’s grace through their faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

Salvation is by faith.

No, salvation is “BY GRACE,” “THROUGH FAITH.” (Eph. 2:8-9). Hence, works are not involved…“not as a result of works.”

Going to heaven requires living out that faith.

Translated: salvation by works.

When children are baptized, its based on the faith of the parents and their agreement to raise the children in the faith. But no onegets the gifts of the holy spirit until they are confirmed and that’s done as an adult decision (typically as teen agers) when they can choose for themselves. Works are not stressed because of infant baptism. Works are stressed because faith without works is dead. (James 2).

A mere “said” faith is dead. That is, one who merely SAYS he has faith. But works are to demonstrate their faith in Christ, the One through whom God saved them by His work on their behalf. However, the works themselves which might demonstrate their faith in Christ save no one.

actually scripture (1Peter 3: 18-22) says:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him

Notice it’s not the water but “an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” This has to do with personal FAITH in Christ. Subsequently the believer who appealed to God is baptized. Baptism is to follow personal faith in Christ. And in Apostolic days they were publicly baptized immediately after personal profession of faith n Christ. An outward testimony of an inward faith. In those days that was no small thing. That’s why Peter told them to be baptized. A public profession of faith and demonstration of their change of mind toward the One whom they’d crucified.

Yet it’s interesting that Paul said:1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."Have men made void the cross of Christ by elevating baptism as the means of salvation?

 

[paul_c]

Paul, you equated Divine salvation with someone being saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently dying from another cause. Thereby concluding that being saved doesn’t necessarily get you into heaven but can be lost again along the way. But then one is not really “saved,” is he?

sure, he’s saved. But he can get lost again and will either need to be resaved or will be condemned

Divine salvation is having been saved (rescued) from Divine judgment/condemnation (Jn. 3:18; 5:24), “the second death,” “the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14). Why? Because Christ took our judgment upon Himself, in our stead. He being the Divine Substitute. Our sins imputed to Him, God’s righteousness imputed to all who believe (2 Cor. 5:21). That’s called salvation by GRACE through FAITH, the gift of God, not as a result of works.

Jesus is not our substitue. he died to reconcile sinners, yes. But no where in scripture does it say that he was substituting for us, despite your cut and paste theology. Don’t even include scriptural references when you link unconnected phrases together. Its dishonest to make people think that the aggregate of what you are pasting together is actually from scripture.

It’s sin that separates man from God. So God, in His infinite mercy, sent His Son into the world to be His sin-Bearer, to “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Heb. 9:26). God dealt with man’s sins, once for all, 2000 years ago. What He requires from each man now (this side of the cross) is personal faith in Christ, in what He had done for us. Hence, salvation “by grace through faith, a gift…not as a result of (one’s own) works.”

Works follow salvation but are never the cause of it. And salvation through faith in Christ is eternal because it’s based on what Christ did, not what we do.

You had it right when you said: Sin separates man from God. and after you have been saved, if you continue to sin, it will still seperate you from God, and if you don’t reconcile before death, it will separate you eternally.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Moondweller,
as usual, you ignore the parts of scripture that don’t agree with your preconcieved theology. In Acts 2: 38-39, Peter says:

I did not exclude personal belief in Christ. This is the passage exactly as it is written. They don’t mention personal belief in Christ, although I would agree with you that no one would ask to be baptized if they didn’t believe. But the point is, getting baptized is the way that we enter the covenant relationship with Jesus. If you believe but are too stubborn to get baptized, what does that say?

Quote:
you are unfortunately confused or misled.

1. we are all called by God (that is the first instance of grace)
2. some answer that call (faith) and take the action of engaging in a covenant relationship (baptism). As Peter says above, REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED
3. when we are baptized, we get sufficient grace to go to heaven
4. But we must persist in the state of grace to go to heaven. (do the work’s God wills us to do)

Again, you are misled. Paul said taht you were freely saved by grace. This is true. But he also said that those that do good works with inherent eternal life and those that did evil would be condemned.
You need to read the ENTIRE bible.

Quote:
I don’t believe in Lordship salvation either. Salvation is by grace through faith. Going to heaven requires you to live out that faith.

Your Faith is completely worthless if it isn’t accompanied by works. what good is faith if you don’t actually do something because of it?

Quote:
Surely, Moondweller, you would agree that “Faith” without works is dead. And a dead faith is worthless toward salvation.

exactly

But, OTOH, works themselves do not necessarily mean true faith.

Also true. In fact most of Matthew 6 is pointing this out. if you fast, or pray, or give alms for publi adulation, there is no spiritual benefit. You must do them out of love

Especially if one is trying to get saved by them, or believes that doing them he will in any way merit salvation. The saved are created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Eph. 2:10), but were not saved by them. Their salvation was by God’s grace through their faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

Well, you certainly can’t work your way into heaven. But the absence of works of love will get you condemned to hell. Read Matthew 25: 31-46. and drop the bit about it not applying to you. Scripture applies to everyone.

Quote:
Salvation is by faith

You continually try to redefine what I say to you.
You are saved by grace through faith in baptism. You stay in the state of grace through love and good works and by avoiding sin. If you die in the state of grace, you go to heaven.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
When children are baptized, its based on the faith of the parents and their agreement to raise the children in the faith. But no onegets the gifts of the holy spirit until they are confirmed and that’s done as an adult decision (typically as teen agers) when they can choose for themselves. Works are not stressed because of infant baptism. Works are stressed because faith without works is dead. (James 2).

Fine, a lack of works demonstrates that you don’t have faith and will be condemned. So you must have works to go to heaven. You are arguing semantics now.

Quote:
actually scripture (1Peter 3: 18-22) says:

of course its not ONLY the water. Taking a bath doesn’t cleanse you of your sins. It requires the intent, the water, the baptismal promises and the competent parties to be baptism and not just a bath. As for it being a public testimony of an inward faith, nothing has changed since apostolic times. this is still true.

Yet it’s interesting that Paul said:
1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.”
Have men made void the cross of Christ by elevating baptism as the means of salvation?

The risen Christ told us to baptize so it certainly doesn’t make void the cross. As for 1cor 1:17, do you not understand that he’s arguing against the splitting of the Church into factions - the very thing you have done by separating yourself from the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic church

 

[moondweller]

Paul teaches in: 1Cor9:27-“No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.”

That’s not qualified for salvation. Paul is taking about his own rewards as he taught in 1 Cor. 3:10-15. As a teacher of the Word he will incur a stricter judgment regarding his works. But none of this has to do with Paul working for salvation. He himself taught that it’s “by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works.”

Galatians5:1,4-“For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery…You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” How does one fall from grace unless one is first graced? And did you not say that the graced are saved?

Notice the context. He is addressing those “who are trying to be justified by law.” IOW, justification by works. He had preached the good news of salvation through faith in Christ in that region, but some, through the influence of Judaizers, refused to believe his gospel (good news) of God’s grace through faith and instead were seeking to be justified before God by works. Hence, they’d fallen from the grace (unmerited, Divine favor) which was first preached to them by Paul. To “fall from grace” is to turn one’s back to the message of God’s grace through faith in Christ and, instead, desire to be justified by works.

Philippians3:11-14-“if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. It is **not that I have already taken hold of it **or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that **I may possess **it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ (Jesus). Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but **straining forward **to what lies ahead, I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling, in Christ Jesus.” Sounds like hard work Saint Paul

To attain spiritual maturity in Christ is hard work for anyone. Paul is not talking in the context of salvation, but spiritual growth in Christ.

1 Tim.4:1-“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions” I just hope they turn back to the faith! Let’s pray for them!

They turn away from “the faith” (noun). They’re similar to those he talks about in 2 Tim. 3:1-7. Those who hold to a form of godliness (religious) but deny it’s power (the cross).

Hebrews3:12-14-"Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may grow hardened by the deceit of sin. We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end" I sure do hope that we all can “do” this!

The context is “an evil unbelieving heart.” They’re like their ancestors (Jewish) who were not able to enter the promised land because of “unbelief” (see Heb. 3:19, same chapter). You need to understand the context.

Hebrews6:4-6-“For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and **tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit **and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” That one line sounds alot like the Eucharist and Baptism. Remember every word was picked by the Holy spirit for a reason!!!

These only “tasted” of the good word of God. They were Jews who where exposed to it by the preaching of the gospel and were among Jewish believers, but they themselves never truly believed. The churches today are full of this type of person. It has nothing to do with Baptism or the Eucharist.

2 Peter2:15, 20-21-"Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray, following the road of Balaam…For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been **better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

These have “knowledge of the Lord,” and have known the “way of righteousness,” but never believed unto salvation. Keep it in CONTEXT, my friend.

How is it that when I quote verses I’m accused of “truncating” the Scriptures. But if you quote verses you’re not?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by david_friol
Paul teaches in: 1Cor9:27-"No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

Paul is not talking about his own rewards. He never mentions that once. He’s talking about going to heaven. Here’s the whole passage (1Cor 9: 19-27) so the context can not be missed:
19 Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law–though I myself am not under the law–to win over those under the law.
21 To those outside the law I became like one outside the law–though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ–to win over those outside the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
23 All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.
25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.
27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Quote:
Galatians5:1,4-“For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery…You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” How does one fall from grace unless one is first graced? And did you not say that the graced are saved?

I don’t think so. The problem was they believed the old testament covenant (circumcision/ dietary laws) were still in effect despite the ruling from the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) that gentiles didn’t need to follow these rules in the new covenent. This is not the same think as denying that good works are rquired to get to heaven.

Quote:
Philippians3:11-14-"if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead

Wrong, Moondweller, he’s talking about attaining the resurrection of the dead. That is clearly a synonym for going to heaven.

Quote:
1 Tim.4:1-“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions” I just hope they turn back to the faith! Let’s pray for them!

This is craziness. He’s clearly saying that some will turn from the faith (which is the catholic Faith that Paul and Timothy are preaching).

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Hebrews3:12-14-“Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living God. Encourage yourselves daily while it is still “today,” so that none of you may grow hardened by the deceit of sin. We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end” I sure do hope that we all can “do” this!

Indeed, the context is that some will fall away.

Quote:
Hebrews6:4-6-“For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” That one line sounds alot like the Eucharist and Baptism. Remember every word was picked by the Holy spirit for a reason!!!

Why do you say they never really beleived. They certainly professed their belief in order to share in the Holy Spirit. What do they lack that you would say is required. Isn’t your view,that once faith is professed, you can not lose your salvation? This clearly refutes that

Quote:
2 Peter2:15, 20-21-"Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray, following the road of Balaam…For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them

How long will you deny the plain truth that is presented to you. How do you state that knowing the way of righteousness is not a synonym for believing unto salvation?

How is it that when I quote verses I’m accused of “truncating” the Scriptures. But if you quote verses you’re not?

You don’t quote verses. You take partial sentences and splice them together to try to support your theology. If you would present complete scriptural thoughts, we would have no complaints.

 

[brb3]

But there is no such thing as “Lordship salvation.” Only salvation “by grace through faith,” which is gifted by God upon belief in Christ, "not as a result of works.

"This is nothing short of salvation by works.
Redeemed (purchased): 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9;
Reconciled (to God): Col. 1:22
Sanctified (in the risen Christ) Heb. 10:10
Glorified (bodily) Phil. 3:20-21)

This is what salvation is

:nope: Lordship is a crucial aspect of Salvation. One may not fully understand the full implications of what it means to call Christ Lord , at first Conversion/Justification. Nevertheless … over time if they have been Reborn by H.S. … they cannot avoid the imperative to follow Christ in Discipleship, and serve their creator as Lord Supreme.

Remember, Salvation is awarded or forfeited upon our last day — when the race is completed, provided we don’t draw back into unconfessed sin or unbelief. For the Apostle Paul, to live IN CHRIST was the equivalent of being a Disciple of Christ / Obedient to his/our Lord. Those who live faithful lives of Obedience to Christ … are granted the grace unto salvation.

Don’t you confess Christ as Lord Moondweller ? Then, why not accept the reality of Lordship Salvation … as taught in Scripture ?

 

[brb3]

I don’t believe in Lordship salvation either. Salvation is by grace through faith. Going to heaven requires you to live out that faith.

And how does one ‘live out’ that faith … w/o acknowledging Christ as Lord ?

Can it be done w/o receiving him and graces necessary to remain a Disciple via the Eucharist & Sacraments of the Church ? Who do we receive in the bread and wine ? Who washes us of original and all subsequent ‘actual’ sins at each confession ?

If we don’t understand / acknowledge Christ as Lord … our ‘works’ after Baptism are of naught. Recall his testimony to us in Gospel of John … “unless you eat my body and drink my cup, you have no [salvific] life within you”.

And what was Peter’s confession to Christ … that Christ acknowledged ? And, what did the 11 do on the mountain , Matt 27:52 And when they saw him THEY WORSHIPED HIM; but some doubted.

Also, Matt 27:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Hail!” And they [the two Marys] came up and TOOK HOLD OF HIS FEET AND WORSHIPED HIM.