Faith or work can save us?

[jcrichton]

Hi, Kristaok!

No amount of “claimed faith” can save us; not even when we have achieve some spiritual power as casting out evil spirits or healings or speaking in tongues:

2:17 Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. (St. James–JB)
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (St. James–NI)

Please, stop making pronouncements for Christ when He Himself denies your eisegesis:

7:21 ‘It is not those who say to me, “Lord, Lord”, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 7:23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’ 7:24 ‘Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock. 7:25 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and hurled themselves against that house, and it did not fall: it was founded on rock. 7:26 But everyone who listens to these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 7:27 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and struck that house, and it fell; and what a fall it had!’ (St. Matthew)

Maran atha!

Agnel

 

[Cathoholic]

kristaok:

No amount of good works could save us, so it is technically by faith that we are saved . . .

Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith kristaok?

Can any amount of your faith save you?

 

[Theo520]

Faith without works is a hollow, dead faith.
Aren’t we commanded to love our neighbor as our-self?
The lack of ‘work’ reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart.

 

[lanman87]

Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith kristaok?

I don’t think we earn heaven at all.

I believe that I received the gifts of Eternal Life, Salvation, Justification, Righteousness, The Holy Spirit and Grace the moment I surrendered my life to Christ in Faith/Trust/Belief. At that point my sins were forgiven and my heart changed. I was made a new creation in Christ and adopted as a son of God. From that point onward my life has been different. I belong to Christ and Christ, by Holy Spirit, lives within me. As long as the Holy Spirit lives within me then my destiny is secured. The Holy Spirit is the seal of my salvation and guarantees that I will receive my inheritance

 

[Jamie5]

I think you can “earn” Heaven if you die trying to save someone, i.e. first responders or good samaritans who try to save someone and are tragically killed. That’s the definition of courage and love.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Kristaok!

I understood your statement; the problem with it is that it is man’s observation not God’s Command.

Faith cannot get you there without the works of Faith–they do not exist independently of each other but rather in conjunction with each other:

13:2b and if I have faith in all its fulness, to move mountains, but without love, then I am nothing at all. 13:3 If I give away all that I possess, piece by piece, and if I even let them take my body to burn it, but am without love, it will do me no good whatever. (1 Corinthians)

Note that St. Paul also considers “acts” outside of Faith (Obedience to God); they too are inert if simply carried out as an obligation or as a merit (exchanged for something).

Faith does initiate our Salvations, yet, we must respond to God (Gift of Grace/Salvation) in Love or our Faith becomes void. Works do not purchase our Salvation; yet, without Works it is impossible to fulfill our Obedience to God, Who Calls us to be Salt and Light of the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Zachary99]

Hi,
I’m new here so I’m trying best to learn how this all works though, so forgive my errors.
Well, faith alone itself is a term which has no absolute meaning among protestants themselves, it’s different according to individual or say respective sects. Faith alone according to Luther was bit ambiguous and is no way similar to Baptist conception of that very term, for him it’s an inspiration to do all things, so faith itself is not alone but is working through love which is exactly what Catholic Church teaches. Trent was called to refute those heretics who taught-- faith apart from charity is suffice for Salvation, which is contradictory to both scripture and tradition.
Peace and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

Correct!

The problem is that many believe that they can actually engage sin with not problem since Jesus already paid the price; further, they fight the Obligations set by Christ to produce good fruit, because they rely on the already “granted, never-to-be-lost salvation.”

Not a single time does anyone in Scriptures proclaim such “guaranteed” salvation.

Rather, we are Called to abide in God–right from the very beginning!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jamie!

…still that’s not earning Heaven.

If the purpose of their endeavor was to be crown as a hero or to purchase themselves into Salvation, they may still have fallen short:

6:1 ‘Be careful not to parade your good deeds before men to attract their notice; by doing this you will lose all reward from your Father in heaven. 6:2 So when you give alms, do not have it trumpeted before you; this is what the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win men’s admiration. I tell you solemnly, they have had their reward. 6:3 But when you give alms, your left hand must not know what your right is doing; 6:4 your almsgiving must be secret, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you. 6:5 ‘And when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them; I tell you solemnly, they have had their reward. (St. Matthew)

Yet, as with the “good thief” on the cross, if they recognized God’s Authority their actions could very well be Received, in the Holy Spirit, as the means to Grant them Salvation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Zachary!

Welcome… don’t worry about the errors issues… it happens and the new system is not as well versed as the old…

I fully concur with you; there are so many interpretation and understandings… what I find interesting is that much of the confusion is due to vocabulary… what to some may mean one thing, to others, they are scratching their heads because they see it so clearly… I think too that the greatest hurdle for non-Catholics is their perception of Catholicism–whether misinformed or genuinely anti-Catholic–they render their definition of the Church from their interpretation and the interpretation of their founder’s understandings… then, as you’ve expressed, there are the various understandings which, in their quest for reconciliation with one another, they mesh into an artificially homogenized tenet: thousands of voices pretending to speak as one.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lanman87]

The problem is that many believe that they can actually engage sin with not problem since Jesus already paid the price

Can you tell me who is teaching this? As I’ve said earlier, in my 48 years on this world I’ve attended numerous Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Church of the Nazerene, Church of Christ, Assembly of God and Reformed/Presbyterian services. I’ve never heard anyone say you can engage in sin without any problem. I’ve heard lots of calls to repentance and exhortation to flee from sin and live Holy lives but nothing near “Believe in Jesus then live like you want to live”.

Keep in mind that even those who believe in OSAS teach to flee sin and “Do everything for the Glory of God”. And they will say if you can continue in sin without repentance that you don’t really have a saving faith.

Even the Westminster Confession of faith says

I. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace,[1] the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the Gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.[2]

II. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of His mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God,[3] purposing and endeavouring to walk with Him in all the ways of His commandments.[4]

III. Although repentance is not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,[5] which is the act of God’s free grace in Christ,[6] yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.[7]

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic:

Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith kristaok?

lanman87:

I believe that I received the gifts of Eternal Life, Salvation, Justification, Righteousness, The Holy Spirit and Grace the moment I surrendered my life to Christ in Faith/Trust/Belief.

.
(It sounds good and pious lanman87. But taken by itself is of course UNBIBLICAL. Taken by itself it is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.)

.
Well lanman87, Catholics believe MORE then. Catholics . . .

. . . believe that I received the gifts of Eternal Life, Salvation, Justification, Righteousness, The Holy Spirit and Grace the moment I surrendered my life to Christ in Faith/Trust/Belief/being born of water and the Spirit and CONTINUE to surrender my life to Christ in Faith/Trust/Belief/Hope/Charity (Love).

Jesus reminds us if we “Love” Him, we will keep His commandments.
.

JOHN 14:15 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

.
Faith, Hope AND LOVE lanman87.
.

MATTHEW 7:20-21 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

.

NOT MATTHEW 7:20-21 (but a phantom verse) 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who only surrendered their life to Christ in Faith/Trust/Belief.

.

Do you think you can earn Heaven by your faith kristaok?

 

[Cathoholic]

I guarantee if Matthew 7:21 said . . . .

.

. . . . “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who has faith” . . .

.
. . . we would be hearing no end about how that verse allegedly “clearly” teaches justification by faith ALONE.

.
The invention and imbibing and passing on of “Justification by faith ALONE” is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

 

[Cathoholic]

JESUS TO ST. FAUSTINA I am giving you three ways of exercising mercy toward your neighbor:
the first - by deed, the second - by word, the third - by prayer. In these three degrees is contained the fullness of mercy, and it is an unquestionable proof of love for Me. By this means a soul glorifies and pays reverence to My mercy. . . . It is to be a reminded of the demands of My mercy, because even the strongest (163) faith is of no avail without works.

.
St. Faustina’s reply recognized the need for grace in this equation . . .

.

ST. FAUSTINA to JESUS O my Jesus, You Yourself must help me in everything, because You see how very little I am, and so I depend solely on Your goodness, O God.

 

[ATraveller]

Can you tell me who is teaching this? As I’ve said earlier, in my 48 years on this world I’ve attended numerous Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Church of the Nazerene, Church of Christ, Assembly of God and Reformed/Presbyterian services. I’ve never heard anyone say you can engage in sin without any problem. I’ve heard lots of calls to repentance and exhortation to flee from sin and live Holy lives but nothing near “Believe in Jesus then live like you want to live”.

Most non-Catholic churches aren’t dens of drunkenness, debauchery and other sins.
Still, some are genuinely concerned.

How ‘Free Grace’ Theology Diminishes the Gospel

Justin Dillehay reviews reviews Wayne Grudem's book, '"Free Grace" Theology: Five Ways It Diminishes the Gospel"' (Crossway, 2016).

www.thegospelcoalition.org

I never liked ‘OSAS’ because it gives the wrong idea to some. If they really think it’s useful, they need to mention Romans 6:1-2.

The problem is that many believe that they can actually engage sin with not problem since Jesus already paid the price; further, they fight the Obligations set by Christ to produce good fruit, because they rely on the already “granted, never-to-be-lost salvation.”

Not a single time does anyone in Scriptures proclaim such “guaranteed” salvation.

Rather, we are Called to abide in God–right from the very beginning!

Maran atha!

Angel

I haven’t heard this one used in a while until recently but some on the Reformed side would claim Catholicism allows people to continue to sinning because all they have to do is confess to a priest and then they can continue again. Now that’s definitely not what the Catholic Church teaches.
Regardless of the theology involved, there are many who cheapen Grace and the suffering on the Cross.

 

[lanman87]

Faith, Hope AND LOVE lanman87.

.

The greatest of Faith, Hope and Love is Love because God is Love and Love is the reason God sent Jesus. If we don’t have love then we don’t know God and if we don’t know God everything else is for nothing.

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8

So I have no problem saying faith must be rooted in Love. Just as I have no problem saying that preaching must be rooted in Love and works must be rooted in Love. And that love is not a love that comes from ourselves but the Love of God.

MATTHEW 7:20-21 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

And who is it that does the will of the the Father? It is those who have trusted in him and seek him and Love him. It is those who He made a new creation and filled with the Holy Spirit. Who is it that produces fruit for the Kingdom? Those who have trusted and believe in Christ and are filled with the Spirit. Who is it that Loves the hurting and sick and rejected? Those who have trusted in Christ and seek Him and His Kingdom. Who is it that Loves God and Loves others and fulfills the purposes of God on earth? God’s adopted Children who want others to know the Love and forgiveness and blessings that are to be found in following Christ.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

…must be a personal “magnet” thing.

Example A:
Once invited to a local church (non-Catholic), the gentleman could not refuse my humble expression that I did not seek to convert to any other religion (born to be Catholic–basically). He visited with a few times with me to compel me to reciprocate; which I did. After their service I was met by him and another of their congregation in a peaceful exchange; the second person was under the influence of some substance (not alcohol); the exchange lasted over two hours the main point being engaged: osas–no matter what.

Example B:
Different group/church–I could not return unless I would agree to be schooled into speaking in tongues, ‘cause the spirituals (true Believers) could not but speak in tongues.’ The theme was that the blood of Jesus forgave past, present and future sin–that a person could die without Confessing his/her sin, and just be ushered right into Salvation.

There are so many encounters… there are the ones with the “salvation prayer” (recite the formula and “your faith” makes you saved); the “faith only;” the “no need for Priests;” the “no need for Baptism–cause Baptism does not save;” the “can’t understand this Catholic Confession thing to another man–no need to Confess God already knows;” the “no need for Catholic Church” or any other religion 'cause they are all evil (from Satan);" the “don’t read the Old Testament–it talks about witchcraft/vengeful God/not the God of the New Testament…” It goes on.

The one thing that I have come to understand is that all of these tenets are geared towards rejection of the Catholic Church and the attempt to legitimize their particular brand of “Christianity.”

…at least the ‘you are going to burn in hell because you are Catholic’ has stopped or at least not being directed at me any more.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lanman87]

The invention and imbibing and passing on of “Justification by faith ALONE” is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

You act like Evangelicals don’t preach obedience to God.

Consider this article by John Piper

I’ll just quote a few paragraphs. The link to the entire article is below.

"So the answer to our second question is that knowing God produces obedience because God is love. If you turn away from the commandments of God because you think you will find more happiness in disobedience, then you do not believe that God is love. You don’t know him. Knowing him as a God of love must result in obedience to his commandments. "

“So when God commands you to do something and you ignore it or go against it, John can only conclude one thing: You don’t believe that God is love. And therefore you don’t know him. For if you believed that God is love, then you would believe that all his commandments were the very best thing for you. And you would follow them. When you turn away from the commandments of God, you say in effect, a loving God wouldn’t command me to do that. And so our disobedience displays our lack of trust in the love God has for us. And it shows that we do not know God.”

“So the first stage of the argument is the foundational truth that there is a necessary connection between knowing Christ and obeying his commandments. Anyone who claims to know him and lives in disobedience is a liar.”

Obedience Confirms Our Standing in God

You can know that you know Christ if you obey his commands.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[jcrichton]

I haven’t heard this one used in a while until recently but some on the Reformed side would claim Catholicism allows people to continue to sinning because all they have to do is confess to a priest and then they can continue again. Now that’s definitely not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Regardless of the theology involved, there are many who cheapen Grace and the suffering on the Cross.

Hi, Traveller!

I fully concur with your closing thought!

This happens on both sides of the Tiber… many do believe that they can “claim” Absolution from God by pretending to confess their sins; this is hollowood’s spirituality where we can hold off till the last second before we die and then a Priest makes the sign of the cross over us and it’s done; some believe that they can sin and use clauses to diminish or even raze their sin and their responsibility with God; then there are the non-Catholics and non-Believers who embrace anything that the culture and the anti-Catholic propaganda professes, puts it on the Church and claim to go the other way because they are being true to God (non-Catholics) and their conscience/self (non-Believers).

Of course there are the odd ones who actually fume at the mouth as they spew all sorts of anti-God/Catholic rhetoric and vehemently reject studying the Sacred Scriptures, Church Doctrine, the writings of the Fathers, and history in order to balance their conception/understanding.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

And who is it that does the will of the the Father? It is those who have trusted in him and seek him and Love him. It is those who He made a new creation and filled with the Holy Spirit. Who is it that produces fruit for the Kingdom? Those who have trusted and believe in Christ and are filled with the Spirit. Who is it that Loves the hurting and sick and rejected? Those who have trusted in Christ and seek Him and His Kingdom. Who is it that Loves God and Loves others and fulfills the purposes of God on earth? God’s adopted Children who want others to know the Love and forgiveness and blessings that are to be found in following Christ.

Hi, Ian!

By this description you sound quite Catholic.

If not for the vocabulary (the understanding/presentation) many non-Catholics would actually be quite in-tune with Catholic Doctrine.

The greatest variation in vocabulary (I personally find) is that when the Catholic Church expresses Salvation by Faith she means everything that you’ve stated above–just add the Sacraments and Apostolic Succession; while (from my personal encounters) non-Catholics single out Faith as the ‘believe in Christ, and you are Saved’ formula (where the variation rules out almost everything but the individual and Christ).

Maran atha!

Angel