Faith or work can save us?

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

People say things like this then object to a concept like Papal Infallibility.

Well, I was thinking more along what the Bible clearly calls sin. Adultery, idolatry, lying, stealing and so forth. You know, those things that hurt ourselves and our neighbors, family and friends.

You’re on track for a distinction between venial and mortal sins here.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

…it is not about ‘tracking’ your every word; it is about clarifying your misconceptions and interpretations of Scriptures and presenting these as factual rendering of the Word of God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Rose!

…well from the Protestants I’ve met in the NYC area; they have not problem with sin because they follow Luther’s ‘even if I commit adultery one thousand times a day, no problem; just relax and sin happy–all my sins have been covered by Jesus past, present and future… so the more I sin the less worries!’ theology.

Some groups have elevated this to a single creed/prayer and once saved… look out world, Jesus got my back no matter what–and I don’t even have to think about it!

It’s ‘the Lord in your pocket’ syndrome.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

…all ‘good feeling theology.’

You do not offer Scriptures; you offer your interpretation of them.

We offer the same.

What is the difference?

The difference is that we offer what the Church which Christ Founded Teaches.

Creating a culture around the Bible and calling it the church of Christ is clearly missing Christ’s Delegation of Authority and the reason why He Founded His Church.

This is akin to me moving into your farmland and cultivating it with my own design and claiming that I am right because I am using the land.

Christ did not give out vouchers and certificates!:

11:23 ‘He who is not with me is against me; and he who does not gather with me scatters. (St. Luke)
7:21 ‘It is not those who say to me, “Lord, Lord”, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 7:23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!’ (St. Matthew)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Is death a punishment to you guys?

It sounds a lot like the Old Testament God who did get angry and punish, I think of Moses not entering the Holy Land due to the water incident, where his pride or faith or both got away from him

Oops that was meant to be a reply to. Lanman, not wesrock

 

[jcrichton]

Believers CAN fall away. But what does that mean. Fall away in what sense? Did the Prodigal son cease to be the son of his father when he fell away?.. No, he remembered that he had a father when he was eating pig food. He repented and came back to his father. He was always the father’s son. Nothing could reverse the birth. Yet he was cut off because of his stupid decisions,

Here there in lies the problem.

The son understood that while he remained away from the father’s house he was no better than the pigs that he herded; if he died then and there what good was it for him to know that he was born in a nice house or that he had had family?

Only when he made the trek back to the father did his sonship gain any value!

So while he remained away from the Father he was nothing.

1:20 But if you persist in rebellion, the sword shall eat you instead.’ The mouth of Yahweh has spoken. (Isaiah)
18:29 And yet the House of Israel objects, “What the Lord does is unjust”. Is what I do unjust, you House of Israel? Is it not what you do that is unjust? 18:30 House of Israel, in future I mean to judge each of you by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! 18:31 Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel? 18:32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks. Repent and live! (Ezekiel)

The Word of God is not void; it is perennial:

2:20 and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in. 2:21 It would even have been better for him never to have learnt the way of holiness, than to know it and afterwards desert the holy rule that was entrusted to him. 2:22 What he has done is exactly as the proverb rightly says: The dog goes back to his own vomit and: When the sow has been washed, it wallows in the mud. (2 St. Peter)

The Blessings in the “Prodigal Son” is not that he was forever a son of the father; rather, the Blessing is that he realized that his unrighteousness, his pulchritude, kept him from the glorious life at the Father’s side and he turned from the void and useless existence to Life.

Even in his thought, the Prodigal Son does not rely on his sonship as a means to a better existence; he actually realizes that even the servants had a dignity and life that he (the son who has given up his sonship) does not enjoy. So he humbled himself and expected not “rights” but Mercy.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So you see, those born of God cannot make a practice of sinning. The Holy Spirit simply will not allow it.

Hi, Ian!

…ok, so how does that work; the Holy Spirit binds the mind and body of those born of God?

…cause I remember one Evangelist that claimed that God threatened to kill him (take him out of the world) if his congregation did not cough up 8 million dollars at the end of a specified period… they did so and he came back that it had to be done every year… so the Holy Spirit was out that day? (this is an extremely visual example for the purpose of understanding your position)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Wesrock!

…but that’s Catholic, isn’t it?

The unspoken rule is that ‘Catholics may not apply!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wesrock]

I was feeling snarky after another topic I had read immediately before posting that, I must admit, but it was an interesting parallel. Someone professes that the Holy Spirit prevents a true Christian from ever sinning (rather than just providing the grace to enable him to do so) seems to have no grounds to object to at least the metaphysical plausibility of Papal Infallibility. Granted, I know not all objections are based on metaphysical plausibility, but again, I was feeling snarky.

 

[jcrichton]

Yeah… it’s that old sinking and empty feeling: ‘I count; you are just making an opinion.’

Interesting thing is that it is Scriptures that they negate not just the Catholic Church’s Authority and Doctrine:

5:13 My brothers, you were called, as you know, to liberty; but be careful, or this liberty will provide an opening for self-indulgence. Serve one another, rather, in works of love, 5:14 since the whole of the Law is summarised in a single command: Love your neighbour as yourself. 5:15 If you go snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, you had better watch or you will destroy the whole community. 5:16 Let me put it like this: if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence, 5:17 since self-indulgence is the opposite of the Spirit, the Spirit is totally against such a thing, and it is precisely because the two are so opposed that you do not always carry out your good intentions. 5:18 If you are led by the Spirit, no law can touch you. 5:19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: fornication, gross indecency and sexual irresponsibility; 5:20 idolatry and sorcery; feuds and wrangling, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels; disagreements, factions, 5:21 envy; drunkenness, orgies and similar things. I warn you now, as I warned you before: those who behave like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 5:22 What the Spirit brings is very different: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, 5:23 gentleness and self-control. There can be no law against things like that, of course. 5:24 You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. 5:25 Since the Spirit is our life, let us be directed by the Spirit. 5:26 We must stop being conceited, provocative and envious. (Galatians)

Sadly, their theology holds on only to those passages in Scriptures where it seems to promote the once saved theologies… every passage that warns against loss of Salvation and not an instant conversion where the sinner becomes forever sinless is ignore or displaced (to be applied to non-Save or those who are not true Believers or the damned…); they genuinely or purposely reject the Word of God when it warns the Believers of the pitfalls of complacency and self-assuredness.

What can be clearer than:

5:13 My brothers, you were called, as you know, to liberty; but be careful, or this liberty will provide an opening for self-indulgence.

What is more self-indulgent than any theology that assures salvation and the auto ability to not sin?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

Let’s begin with the small metaphor Paul offers in 1st. Corinthians 3 beginning in verse 8 where he says, "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own REWARD according to his own labor.
Jump down to verse 12. Now if anyone (in Christ) builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, v13 each one’s work will become clear; for the DAY will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. v14 If anyone’s WORK which he has build on it endures, he will receive a REWARD. v15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved (delivered) yet so as through fire.

Gold obviously speaks of a pure and righteous work for God, undefiled by the world, Silver represents something very good, but not quite as pure as Gold. Precious stones, are also a good works, but lessor in quality than the two others.

Then he talks about wood, a substance that when fire is applied will burn up with time. This represents the believer who’s works are symbolic in the wood. Hay, will also burn up but much faster, straw represents symbolically, a believer who’s works did not remain for eternity, all of it burned up quickly, as did the wood and hay.
This metaphor is a depiction of the level and quality of each persons works when God applies the fire (not hell fire) of testing. It is this back-drop before he goes on to talk about how the Corinthian Church is the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in them.

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. Any student of Proverbs knows that any believer can find themselves in a state of destruction, (temporally.) But if you add or impose words like “eternal destruction” when the Spirit of God did not, you defile the text. Nowhere in this passage is Paul talking about heaven or hell. Why impose that idea when the Holy Spirit didn’t?

 

[lanman87]

was feeling snarky after another topic I had read immediately before posting that, I must admit, but it was an interesting parallel. Someone professes that the Holy Spirit prevents a true Christian from ever sinning (rather than just providing the grace to enable him to do so) seems to have no grounds to object to at least the metaphysical plausibility of Papal Infallibility. Granted, I know not all objections are based on metaphysical plausibility, but again, I was feeling snarky.

I want to be clear that I don’t believe that Christians don’t sin. I do however, believe the ESV translation is correct. Someone who has truly been born of God can’t practice sin and can’t keep on sinning. It is not that they will never sin, it is that that can’t habitually practice sinning.

This was an answer to the question of if someone can still be saved, according to Protestant teaching, even if they commit adultery over and over again. The answer is that if they have been saved then they will not keep committing adultery over and over again because of the discipline of God and the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sin and calling them to repentance. And that if someone calls themselves a believer and yet continues to “keep on sinning” then they have not been born “of God”. They may think they have been saved due to erroneous teaching, selfishness, misunderstanding, or pride. But the evidence shows that they have not been truly born of God.

 

[lanman87]

cause I remember one Evangelist that claimed that God threatened to kill him (take him out of the world) if his congregation did not cough up 8 million dollars at the end of a specified period… they did so and he came back that it had to be done every year… so the Holy Spirit was out that day? (this is an extremely visual example for the purpose of understanding your position)

Well, many people who claim to be led the by the Spirit are charlatans trying to use religion for personal gain.

And I’m not saying that those born of God can’t sin or don’t struggle with sin, I’m saying they will not continue in sin. They will be working to rid their life of sin and draw closer to Christ. If not, they will fall under conviction and discipline which will cause them to repent, and if they don’t fall under conviction and discipline then they are illegitimate(fake) children of God.

 

[lanman87]

Is death a punishment to you guys?

I don’t think punishment is the right word. Consequence is probably a better word. We reap what we sow and if someone truly has been born again falls into sin the God will work to correct him. It is a two fold process. One is the conviction of the Holy Spirit making a person understand the gravity of sin and the other is discipline of God which can include life issues, consequences of sin, sickness, and so forth. All is designed to bring the Child of God to repentance. However, if the Child of God will not repent then it is possible the God could allow the person to die a physical death, usually as a consequence of sin, so that His spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

I think that the problem is vocabulary.

It is not that the person born from God can’t sin. We know from Scriptures that they indeed do sin.

What Scriptures Teach is that the person born from God rejects sins and strives not to sin. That when he/she does sin she knows that she has to turn back to God; instead of relishing sin, that sinner rejects sin and seeks God. As a Catholic this means that a sinner must avail him/herself of the Sacrament of Confession.

The problem that both Catholics and non-Catholics refuse to address is the issue opened by Luther (‘I can commit adultery 1000 x per day, no sweat!’) and instead of being Obedient to the Teaching of the Apostles to remain faithful and loyal to the Faith and to maintain self-control… we both jump to the “can sin” but just “repent” so I can sin, sin, sin, sin (is that a song or a way of life?); yes, Jesus Commands forgiveness (7 x 70) but He does not Command strive to sin and cop an excuse!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

…so let’s say I’m a Christian who has mastered the art of adultery/robbery/exploitation… I keep thinking that it is wrong but I continue to tread on… so God would kill me so that my acts stop and save me even when I’m fully immersed in sin & repent, sin more & repent, sin profusely & repent (cause if God wants me to stop He will grieve me till I do)?

Does this not counter your explanation?:

2:3 We can be sure that we know God only by keeping his commandments. 2:4 Anyone who says, ‘I know him’, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, refusing to admit the truth. 2:5 But when anyone does obey what he has said, God’s love comes to perfection in him. We can be sure that we are in God 2:6 only when the one who claims to be living in him is living the same kind of life as Christ lived. (1 St. John)

The only time when Scriptures speaks about the Holy Spirit’s intercession is here:

8:26 The Spirit too comes to help us in our weakness. For when we cannot choose words in order to pray properly, the Spirit himself expresses our plea in a way that could never be put into words, (Romans)

Nowhere in Scriptures are we Taught that God intercedes for the sin of the Believers.

We are responsible to reject sin and embrace God; there’s no free ride for “true” Believer/children.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wesrock]

I want to be clear that I don’t believe that Christians don’t sin. I do however, believe the ESV translation is correct. Someone who has truly been born of God can’t practice sin and can’t keep on sinning. It is not that they will never sin, it is that that can’t habitually practice sinning.

This was an answer to the question of if someone can still be saved, according to Protestant teaching, even if they commit adultery over and over again. The answer is that if they have been saved then they will not keep committing adultery over and over again because of the discipline of God and the Holy Spirit convicting them of their sin and calling them to repentance. And that if someone calls themselves a believer and yet continues to “keep on sinning” then they have not been born “of God”. They may think they have been saved due to erroneous teaching, selfishness, misunderstanding, or pride. But the evidence shows that they have not been truly born of God.

I was unfairly snarky to you before. Sorry about that.

The issue here seems to be whether people who are justified can lose that justification. The Catholic says yes. What you describe here seems to be no. The Catholic Church does not see justification as only a legal status. We enter into a covenant relationship with God, which we can break, and which can be restored. We become part of God’s family (and a familial relationship is not the same as a legal status), and God gives us sufficient grace that we can use to lead lives without (mortal/grave) sin, but even after becoming part of the family we are not rendered indefectible. God understands that we will fail repeatedly at upholding our end of the covenant, and He will not reject us because of our failures, because Jesus’ offering more than covers our failings. However, He does let us reject the covenant, which is something else entirely, and if we outright reject it, He will not force salvation on us and render what justice is due. That we can reject the covenant does not mean we never entered into it.

Furthermore, God certainly knows who will be saved and who will not be. He does not reserve initial justification to only those who end up being saved.

 

[tgGodsway]

Good to know J,

I don’t have a problem owning up to what I say or tracking me. But I do have a problem remembering who said what since I have almost ALL who disagree and challenge me. I can only respond to about 5 percent.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

…just offer your replies; don’t try to resolve all issues at once; and I am sure that it does look like a gang up… so I relaxed my replies.

Consider, though, that it is better to get one point across than to hit every base/topic.

I welcome everyone who wants to share the Word of God; I’m sure most people here do; consider too that we own different vocabulary and that may help to create misunderstandings and near-misses.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

J, I’m on my cell phone and I’m at work. I havent dealt extensively with your stuff but will do so in a few hours. You are kind of funny sounding