Faith or work can save us?

[jcrichton]

…yeah, I’m kind of the odd man out!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[lanman87]

I was unfairly snarky to you before. Sorry about that.

No problem, I’ve intentionally stayed about from the Papal Infallibility thread. I don’t usually commit on these threads unless someone ask a question that I can, somewhat at least, provide an answer.

And yes, I have, over the past few months come to understand the Roman Catholic teaching on justification. As I’ve indicated on other threads, I have struggled with the concept of Security of the Believer/OSAS. I can quote the Bible versus from both perspectives. My answer is if you live for Jesus then you don’t have to worry about it.

 

[De_Maria]

Let’s begin with the small metaphor Paul offers in 1st. Corinthians 3 beginning in verse 8 where he says, "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own REWARD according to his own labor.

[/QUOTE]
According to his own labor. That pretty much destroys the idea of faith alone. But let’s continue.

Jump down to verse 12 -14

Still an obvious reference to salvation by faith and works.

v15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved (delivered) yet so as through fire.

Saved or delivered. Still fine. Note that in the case of those whose works are burned, they are saved by fire. What does fire do?

Zechariah 13:9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Gold obviously speaks of a pure and righteous work for God, undefiled by the world

Agreed. Still supports faith and works.

, Silver represents something very good, but not quite as pure as Gold. Precious stones, are also a good works, but lessor in quality than the two others.

Still agreed.

Then he talks about wood, a substance that when fire is applied will burn up with time. This represents the believer who’s works are symbolic in the wood. Hay, will also burn up but much faster, straw represents symbolically, a believer who’s works did not remain for eternity, all of it burned up quickly, as did the wood and hay.

In essence, these works are not righteous works. They are works stained by sin.

This metaphor is a depiction of the level and quality of each persons works when God applies the fire (not hell fire) of testing.

Purgatorial fire of purging and refining.

It is this back-drop before he goes on to talk about how the Corinthian Church is the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in them.

It is the back drop of the Temple of God which each Christian has become:
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. Any student of Proverbs knows that any believer can find themselves in a state of destruction, (temporally.)

Whether this is true, you’ll have to prove by providing the text from Proverbs. Meanwhile, the context of this verse is not one of continued existence. But of the Judgement.

But if you add or impose words like “eternal destruction” when the Spirit of God did not, you defile the text.

On the contrary, if you add the word “temporary” to the text, you add into it something which is not intended. Because this text is about 'THE DAY". Meaning, the Day of Judgment.

3 … for the day shall declare it,

Nowhere in this passage is Paul talking about heaven or hell. Why impose that idea when the Holy Spirit didn’t?

The passage is about being saved:

but he himself shall be saved;

Being saved is about going to heaven. Therefore, if one is destroyed, that person is sent to hell.

 

[lanman87]

Nowhere in Scriptures are we Taught that God intercedes for the sin of the Believers.

No, it says Jesus does.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

and later John tells us exactly what he means by “His Commandments”

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us 1 john 3:23-24

So Jesus is the propitiation (appeasement/satisfaction) for our sins (those born of God, who love one another and are filled with the Spirit) and also for the whole world. I believe this is an ongoing propitiation due to our having been “born of God”. Also, I don’t believe this “whole world” means everyone in the world will be saved but means that is offered to the world but given to those that come to faith. Especially when you compare it to chapter 5.

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

and before someone says it. No, I don’t think love is a work. Love is a state of our heart that produces works.

 

[tgGodsway]

I agree partially. It wasn’t that the son had no value living among the pigs. It was that the son did not realize his value. He remained a son as he ate with the pigs. He was blinded by his own personal ambitions to leave his father’s side and go live for self. His purpose for living became an empty well. Just like a back-slid den Christian who has either forgotten who he is in Christ, or, stopped believing the good news that he was adopted into the family of royalty, he suffers his poor choices. A sinning Christian only conceals his true character when he sins, but reveals it only through holy living. The prodigal son needed to visit the pig farm in order to get a clear perspective of just who he is. He needed to go down in order to look up.

 

[tgGodsway]

Those who plant and those who water LABOR together. But De_Maria, their labor is not to be saved. His examples of laborers are justified believers who are working the kingdom. At the end of all things, they will get a reward for their labor. You are fixated on faith plus works in everything you read. Paul is talking to the Corinthian Church, these were justified saved people.

Verses 12-14. NO… not a reference to faith and works FOR ETERNAL LIFE. "If anyone builds (The anyone is anyone “in Christ”. Paul is talking about doing the work of the ministry. He is not talking about doing a work to be eternally saved. Nor is there any suggestion in the context of such a thought. Prove me wrong by showing me.
verse 15. Yes the fire is a metaphor for refinement. Exactly! … If anyone’s work (In Christ family) is burned up, (meaning their works had no eternal value=dead works) he… (the person in Christ) will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved=delivered through the fire of refinement. all metaphor … dealing with the justified believer. One person is successful while another is not, all based on how they invested.

I think what is happening here is you are reading into the passage your Catholic view of progressive justification. This is why every example used of a person working the kingdom of God, their salvation is in question Because even I know that Catholics do not say things like “I am saved.” There is too much finality in that statement. So every person living today is potentially justified but never completely justified until that great Day. Paul’s examples of those who labor, certainly fit the bill. They are laboring so that they can finally become eternally saved. This must drive you crazy. It does me.

 

[tgGodsway]

Being saved eternally RESULTS in going to heaven. But eternal life begins at the moment you believe Jesus is the Christ. You possess it here and now living in your body. When your body finally dies, your spirit will go to heaven. Jesus preached eternal life in the here and now, not futuristic as did the Pharisees.

 

[De_Maria]

Those who plant and those who water LABOR together. But De_Maria, their labor is not to be saved.

Two things.

First. True. But that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t take their work into account for salvation.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

1. It may not be for their personal salvation, but it certainly is for the salvation of those to whom they are preaching:

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

His examples of laborers are justified believers who are working the kingdom. At the end of all things, they will get a reward for their labor. You are fixated on faith plus works in everything you read. Paul is talking to the Corinthian Church, these were justified saved people.

True. But justification is not a one time and done deal for Catholics. It is a lifetime process. St. Paul is talking in that context, therefore, he is talking in the context of faith and works.

Verses 12-14. NO… not a reference to faith and works FOR ETERNAL LIFE. "If anyone builds (The anyone is anyone “in Christ”. Paul is talking about doing the work of the ministry. He is not talking about doing a work to be eternally saved. Nor is there any suggestion in the context of such a thought. Prove me wrong by showing me.

There are three reasons for doing the work of the ministry.

1. To edify the Church.
2. For the salvation of souls.
3. For our own salvation.

verse 15. Yes the fire is a metaphor for refinement. Exactly!

You’ve just admitted the basic principle behind the Doctrine of Purgatory.

… If anyone’s work (In Christ family) is burned up, (meaning their works had no eternal value=dead works)

What about the gold, silver and diamonds? Did they have eternal value?

he… (the person in Christ) will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved=delivered through the fire of refinement. all metaphor … dealing with the justified believer.

Agreed.

One person is successful while another is not, all based on how they invested.

Actually, all have successfully entered heaven. Those who produced gold, silver and precious stones, entered heaven unscathed. Those who produced wood and straw, entered heaven after being purified by fire. That’s Purgatory.

The one’s who are not successful, are those who have defiled their Temple. They are destroyed by God. Destruction being a metaphor for eternal punishment.

 

[De_Maria]

Being saved eternally RESULTS in going to heaven. But eternal life begins at the moment you believe Jesus is the Christ. You possess it here and now living in your body. When your body finally dies, your spirit will go to heaven. Jesus preached eternal life in the here and now, not futuristic as did the Pharisees.

True.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But we can also lose it.

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; strong text4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

[tgGodsway]

I’m going to Church tonight. We’re gonna have an awesome service. But I wanted to touch on two things. You said, But justification is not a one time and done deal for Catholics. It is a lifetime process."
I am still waiting for someone on this site to show me any of the Apostles theology on progressive justification. So far, all I get is re-direct and inference. Justification is taught clearly as an act. This is the huge elephant in the room everyone avoids.

Secondly, not related to the above… how do you highlight my quotes and distinguish them from your quotes. I don’t know how to do this on this site. Can you help.
bye for now. Blessings to you.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m going to Church tonight. We’re gonna have an awesome service. But I wanted to touch on two things. You said, But justification is not a one time and done deal for Catholics. It is a lifetime process."
I am still waiting for someone on this site to show me any of the Apostles theology on progressive justification. So far, all I get is re-direct and inference. Justification is taught clearly as an act. This is the huge elephant in the room everyone avoids.

I gave you Abraham’s example and St. Paul’s. What’s lacking?

Secondly, not related to the above… how do you highlight my quotes and distinguish them from your quotes. I don’t know how to do this on this site. Can you help.
bye for now. Blessings to you.

Sure. There’s a " symbol in the text box menu. Its called the block quote. Its the 5th from the left. The first is the quote bubble, then the B, then the I, then the chain link symbol, then the ".

Click on it for practice. You’ll see the following:

Blockquote

So, here’s the procedure.

First, what you do is you highlight the text you want highlighted.
Then, you click on the Block quote.
Then, you check in the preview box to the right of your screen to see if it highlighted what you intended. (Sometimes it acts in a funky way and grabs more or less text then you intended).

I hope that helps.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Do you guys believe we all die, then have judgement, heaven, or hell. Or do you guys believe those chosen will not undergo death, if no punishment is required.

Or are you saying this undergo death is eternal death.

Having no Protestants/ evangelicals in my world, I am asking these questions to understand what you guys believe.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Ian!

You are making reference to Jesus’s intercession on behalf of man; perhaps I should have worded it differently to avoid confusion.

Yet, consider what you have cited, does it denote any direct intervention where God will keep sin away from “the Believers” or somehow shield the their ability to sin?

Rather, the only two Teachings about God and sin expresses a different understanding:

1:13 Never, when you have been tempted, say, ‘God sent the temptation’; God cannot be tempted to do anything wrong, and he does not tempt anybody. 1:14 Everyone who is tempted is attracted and seduced by his own wrong desire. (St. James)
10:13 The trials that you have had to bear are no more than people normally have. You can trust God not to let you be tried beyond your strength, and with any trial he will give you a way out of it and the strength to bear it. (1 Corinthians)

Yet, it is up to the individual to submit his/her will to God’s or to go on his/her own:

4:5 Surely you don’t think scripture is wrong when it says: the spirit which he sent to live in us wants us for himself alone? 4:6 But he has been even more generous to us, as scripture says: God opposes the proud but he gives generously to the humble. 4:7 Give in to God, then; resist the devil, and he will run away from you. 4:8 The nearer you go to God, the nearer he will come to you. Clean your hands, you sinners, and clear your minds, you waverers. 4:9 Look at your wretched condition, and weep for it in misery; be miserable instead of laughing, gloomy instead of happy. 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up. (James)

To suppress man’s ability to chose unrighteousness or righteousness would be to deny man’s freewill; it would also mean that God would give “Believers” an unfair advantage over all others… this of course is contrary to Scriptures:

10:34 Then Peter addressed them: ‘The truth I have now come to realise’ he said ‘is that God does not have favourites, 10:35 but that anybody of any nationality who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to him. (Acts)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. (St. Matthew)

Jesus does not remove man’s freewill; rather, Jesus bridges man to God, when man turns from self (the temporal values) to God:

16 I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. (Galatians)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

The point is that he (man) cannot rely on “I am” as the source of his Salvation:

3:9 and do not presume to tell yourselves, “We have Abraham for our father”, because, I tell you, God can raise children for Abraham from these stones. (St. Matthew)

It is not about claiming a “right.” It is about God’s Gift and Abiding in God to be able to partake of the Gift.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But Jesus never preached assurance of Salvation:

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. (St. John)

It is not reliance on some formula or Scriptural clause, it is on Abiding in Christ:

8:12 So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. 8:13 If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live. (Romans 8:1-17)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

It is my understanding that it is a matter of vocabulary; non-Catholics hold Justification and Salvation as a done deal (‘don’t worry, do nothing–Christ took care of it all’); Catholic’s Understanding is that man is Justified by Christ (done deal) but Salvation, though it is irrevocable from God’s end, does not become a done deal till the very end. Catholics follow Scriptural and Apostolic Teaching (both the Written and Oral Tradition) and we do not displace the warnings that man can and indeed is able to reject God’s Gift (Grace and Salvation) at any point in his life.

Some non-Catholics believe that once a formula or “profession” is annunciated that person has guaranteed salvation and will never forfeit it no matter how unrighteous or how far removed from God he/she gets. Catholics believe, as Scriptures point out, that to reject God (commit to self), even by “Believers” is to reject God’s Gifts, Eternal Life included.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

True gifts have no strings attached. Can you imagine giving a gift to one of your children, only to see their wonderful smile and joyful attitude, turn sad when you begin to explain the conditions for keeping the gift. The gift had a string attached to it right up to the tug of your hand. This is not the way of God the Father.

My comments are going to be short for the next few days, because I’ve got a project to finish.
blessings.

 

[tgGodsway]

It is true that the man with one talent refused to invest while his master went away. When he stood before the Master and gave an account, he was lacking. He feared because of his belief that his Master reaps where He did not sow. And of course you know the story, the Master threw him outside in the dark where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. Brutal isn’t it? … It reminds me of the man who accidently walked into the banquet of the Lord but was immediately stopped. "Friend… who let you in here without the proper clothes?.. He was speechless… throw my friend outside in the dark where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These two stories have commonality. Neither was worthy to attend the wedding banquet. Obviously the wedding banquet was not for just anyone. Matt. 8 tells us that many will come from the east and west to recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the SONS OF THE KINGDOM will be throw outside in the dark where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. So we have a servant, and friend and some of God’s sons, not able to attend the banquet. All of them did not have the quality of works.
I’ve got to go… you go study it.

 

[jcrichton]

You continue to miss the point.

You cannot sin and live a life of sin and claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to be in Fellowship with Christ.

You make God a liar and an enabler.

The fact that God’s Gifts are irrevocable does not mean that man can choose his own way and still claim to be of God.

Scriptures are quite clear:

5:19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: fornication, gross indecency and sexual irresponsibility; 5:20 idolatry and sorcery; feuds and wrangling, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels; disagreements, factions, 5:21 envy; drunkenness, orgies and similar things. I warn you now, as I warned you before: those who behave like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 5:22 What the Spirit brings is very different: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, 5:23 gentleness and self-control. There can be no law against things like that, of course. 5:24 You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. 5:25 Since the Spirit is our life, let us be directed by the Spirit. 5:26 We must stop being conceited, provocative and envious. (Galatians)

The Call is not to “assurance of Salvation;” the Call is to ‘Be Holy’ by Obedience to Christ–it is in Him that our Salvation is Hidden!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes. It is St. Matthew’s 7:21-27 (though I usually just cite 21-23); it is not about what man thinks that he can define/determine for God but what God’s Justice, Mercy and Love has Decreed (Ezekiel 18).

Maran atha!

Angel