Faith or work can save us?

[tgGodsway]

De_Maria,
If we are flawed, and I know we are, so are you. You have no spiritual leverage over us. Your flaws and weaknesses are well known in the world, both doctrinally and relationally.

We should be able to grow together in grace because we are supposed to be fellows workers of God’s harvest, but some refuse to be of the same mindset because they want the rule.

 

[Brendan]

tg,

The Church does not submit to other Earthly powers because the authority it received comes from Christ, and it is to Christ alone that it should submit.

This authority was given to Peter by Christ Himself.

John 21:16 - He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep"

The Greek word used to describe the relationship between Peter and the sheep is Ποίμαινε ( pomainie). It is a work that also describes the relationship between a general and his troops or a king and his people. It carries both a description of absolute authority over the subjects, and that the ruler is also responsible for their care and wellbeing ( hence is it is also sometimes translated as ‘feed’)

We see that same word in Revelation 2:27

And he shall rule (Ποίμαινε) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. - Rev 2:27

So the authority that Christ gave to Peter ( and thus to the Church) is the same level authority that Christ has over all of creation. It is a kingly authority.

 

[tgGodsway]

It’s a great teaching, but you are implying something implicitly. You are saying more than what the scripture you used said. In other words, you are reading your personal bias into the passage as if Peter was the only Apostle and all authority was given specifically to him above and beyond the others.

His rank was equal to the others and the others treated him as they did each other. These are the facts that any un bias student can glean from reading their N.T. The Roman Church has Peter ruling as “head” of the Church at the same time all the other Apostles were in their ministries. This is problematic for them because the New Testament shows no partiality to any one Apostle. Christ was taught as “head” over all the Church, at all times. If Christ is the head over the Church and the pope is the head over all of the Church. This is a huge problem for Rome.

 

[ajcstr]

Peter was the only one that was given the keys. Also he was the one who was given the revelation that Jesus was the Christ.

Peter is always mentioned first in any list of apostles and no one entered the tomb before him.

I believe he was the only one who was commissioned to feed the sheep.

The keys are important. Because they are a reference to Isaiah 22 and the prime minister of the davidic kingdom

 

[ajcstr]

continued… Of course Christ is the head of the Church but the Pope serves as his prime minister. That is the traditional teaching of the Church.

 

[Brendan]

Who did Christ speak those words to? Was it Peter alone or to all of those present?

It’s a great teaching, but you are implying something implicitly. You are saying more than what the scripture you used said. In other words, you are reading your personal bias into the passage as if Peter was the only Apostle and all authority was given specifically to him above and beyond the others.

This is problematic for them because the New Testament shows no partiality to any one Apostle. Christ was taught as “head” over all the Church, at all times. [/quote[

I would disagree, not only was Peter singled out by being renamed, during the Transfiguration, only three Apostles ( Peter, James and John) were invited up the mountain, that they were instructed to withhold information about a miracle until after the Resurrection. Likewise, those three were the ones invited close to Christ in the garden after the Last Supper. All of that are signs of partiality

If Christ is the head over the Church and the pope is the head over all of the Church. This is a huge problem for Rome.

Why so? It has been the model since the founding of the Church

 

[Benadam]

Luke 22-31 “Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded[e] to sift all of you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Here Jesus warns Peter, not the others. The ‘all of you’ seems to have a double meaning since he is addressing Peter. All of the apostles ? or all of Peter? Notice the only person Jesus has prayed for? Why wouldn’t He pray for all of them? .

and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Here, at the gates, Peter’ new name is going to be put to the test. Jesus speaks as if it isn’t a matter of ‘if’.
Turned back what does that mean? is Peter gonna…

“I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you have denied three times that you know me.”

Of course! this is the test. Satan targets Peter. He has the keys to that door and he will make his brothers stronger.

His rank was equal to the others and the others treated him as they did each other.

Of course, they are brothers. It’s how Jesus and Satan treat them that matters.

Satan targets Peter because Jesus named him rock. Since it is God that did the naming, Simon truly becomes Peter. His faith is tested and it’s his faith that strengthens the brothers.

You don’t see this treatment as different than the others?
Satan wouldn’t have desired to sift Peter if he didn’t have rank.

Matthew 16:18 [Full Chapter]

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, T!

Your understanding is flawed.

It is Apostolic Teaching (which comes from Christ Himself: ‘those who do not gather with Me, scatter.’) that there’s but One Faith, One Baptism, One Gospel, One Body, One Lord, One God, One Unit… the second man revolted against the Church he broke from the Unity of the Body of Christ. It is in Christ’s Body that all are Saved.

That is the Teaching of Christ: ‘Abide in Me so that I may ABIDE in you, for without Me you can do nothing!’

…so man says, 'no, I don’t have to follow Christ and His Delegation of Authority; I know God personally and I can form a personal relationship with God!

Of course man makes void God’s Word:

14:6 Jesus said: ‘I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. (St. John)

Your presumption is that Jesus intended an invisible church where everyman (and in the last few decades every woman and any man/woman) can speak for God and wheel Christ’s Authority… I’ve seen this reach as “Christians” want to place what Scriptures clearly define as Jesus’s Revelation to the Twelve as something that pertains to all humanity… to the extreme of claiming that Christ choosing of the twelve was in respect to His contemporaries’ male dominated social order–they are so focused on proving themselves right that they blatantly ignore or deny Scriptures and even malign Christ to make their construct possible.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Unbiased does not mean much if there is a preconception that drives that “unbiased” tenet.

When you read Scriptures you find Cephas being placed as the 1st amongst the Twelve. It is his word that consolidates those of the Way.

Jesus did not change the names of the Twelve and stated that He would build his Church on them.

Jesus did not Pray for the Twelve to remain Loyal to Him.

Jesus did not Command the Eleven to gather others or to provide or to protect the others; Jesus only Command Cephas… not only that but He qualified: ‘Peter, do you Love me more than these?’

This is seen in their relationship throughout the Gospel; though even St. John the Evangelist denotes his special relationship with Christ (the disciple He loved) it is Cephas the one with whom Jesus establishes that special comradery: ‘I Prayed for you, Peter, so that when you return to Me, you gather the rest around you; feed the Lambs (primacy of followers: Apostles), feed the sheep, care for the sheep.’

Remember the event of coming to Jesus? Was St. Peter the first? No. Not chronologically… but when the listing of the Twelve comes along it is Cephas who is placed as first… when the description of Christ’s Ministry is made it is Cephas who is the protagonist always depicted as the one at Christ’s side and the one the jumps to Jesus while the others ruminate and wait…

There’s one passage where Cephas clearly is not presented as prominent… and it is the only passage dealing with the Church’s Authority… (if you are as well versed as I, I know that you’ve just hit right on it): the mom comes to Jesus requesting that her children be placed as 1st and 2nd on the chain of commands…

Conversely, Cephas’ is always the first to offer himself and to follow Jesus–even in his denial of Jesus, Cephas was right across from Jesus as the rooster crowed twice!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

to jcrichton

No! it has not been the model since the founding of the church, otherwise when we look into the writings of the founders there would be explicit, deliberate and willful teaching with all of the details to this new papal ministry, along with how it overrides Paul’s teaching on Church government found in various places. Oh yeah, historically these details of Church government cannot be found for centuries. The fact that Church tradition would eventually become co-equal in authority to holy scripture should give anyone a check in their spirit. This too took centuries to get down on paper.

The fact that Paul failed to mention a coming priesthood should be shocking to any un bias student of scripture. The fact that Peter was called to preach to the Jews (and not Gentiles) should give room for pause, not to mention the evidence of a wife and mother-in-law. The fact that during the time Peter was supposedly ruling in Rome, scripture finds him receiving rebuke by Paul for treating Jewish converts more respectfully than Gentile converts. All of these things should add up and point any un bias student in a completely different path. The idea that when Peter decrees a matter while sitting on his Chair of authority, (as if there is something magical about this chair) we should all stop and listen because he is speaking prophetically as an Apostle., okay… I can agree to that. So did Paul. Actually the holy Spirit used more of Paul’s writings to form the New Testament than Peters. Is Paul greater than Peter, NO! It wasn’t about who had the “head” all of them understood that Christ was the head and not them. These small things all add up.

Thou art Peter= petros,=small rock (masculine gender) and upon this Rock (petra=bolder of truth) I will build my Church… and from the Greek it is in a feminine gender, or a neuter gender.) Therefore using the Greek manuscript it is impossible to read this passage in the way you insist it should be read. I just love the Greek text for it’s accuracy. Peter said, You Are the Christ the Son of the living God… flesh and blood has not revealed this to you Peter … and I also say to you, you are Peter and upon this ROCK (of truth you just discovered) I will build my Church. The Rock of truth is rooted in the fact that Jesus is the Christ. This message is consistent with the many passages that talk about eternal life.
The English translation obviously hides a more accurate rendering. But Rome is fully aware of it and does not care.

The keys of the kingdom to loose and bind was not given solely to Peter for the very reason Jesus repeated himself two chapter later in front of all of the Apostles, commanding all of them to bind and loose. But again, if you’ve got it fixed in your head that Peter alone was the leader on earth for the whole world , you go ahead and believe it. It does not hinder any of us who do not.

 

[jcrichton]

Wow… visit China much?

…so you transliterate: ‘you small rock; Me Big Rock; I will build My Church on Big Rock; you little rock; I only mentioned you as little rock to make comparison.’

Really, Jesus was confused or threatened by Cephas?

…and we have everything that the Apostles Taught and did Written?

Wow!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Benadam]

Peter decrees a matter while sitting on his Chair of authority, (as if there is something magical about this chair)

definitely not magic but authority. Authority that comes down to us from God.
Even though Jesus was among them He doesn’t want anyone to disobey those who sit on Moses’ seat.
Matthew 23:2-4

2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it;

What do your teachers say

happened to the authority Jesus passed down to His Church?

Did authority from God come down to earth, be given to men to fade away? An eternal reality enters time and stops being an eternal reality? No.

I wonder who it was that God’s authority to teach died in? Can authority from God be exercised by something other than a human?

 

[ajcstr]

Please identify the verse where the keys were given to anyone other than Peter

The other Apostles were NOT given the keys

 

[ajcstr]

Thou art Peter= petros,=small rock (masculine gender) and upon this Rock (petra=bolder of truth) I will build my Church… and from the Greek it is in a feminine gender, or a neuter gender.) Therefore using the Greek manuscript it is impossible to read this passage in the way you insist it should be read. I just love the Greek text for it’s accuracy.

So then you would argue that Jesus spoke Greek and not Aramaic ?

 

[De_Maria]

This I do. I am in total submission to those who have the rule over me.

Lol! I don’t thinks so. You, in fact, have no idea. Read a bit further.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Do you obey and submit to any human being to whom you give authority to give account of your soul to God? If so, to whom?

I do not have a submission issue, but I do think the Roman Church has one…

Again, you don’t understand. The Catholic Church was instituted by Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ gave her authority over all men. The Catholic Church submits only to Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

When was the last time the Church at Rome submitted to any other rule?

The Catholic Church always and only submits to Jesus Christ. The Pope rules in the name of Jesus Christ.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with tgGodsway

Probably in the first century alone when Apostles like Paul were giving her instruction.

The Church was in charge even of St. Paul from the time that Christ gave her authority.

1 Timothy 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

But that obviously has faded. Rome has a submission problem. …

Jesus Christ speaks through the Catholic Church.

I agree with what Ephesians 3:10 says, that the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God. Agreed. …

God’s Wisdom is infallible. The Catholic Church is the only Church whose Teachings are infallible. No Protestant is infallible. Therefore, neither you nor any Protestant teach the Wisdom of God.

You said: In essence we are to learn our faith from the CHURCH". agreed. Reading and studying to show ourselves approved unto God a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God" is what we do.

Not Protestants. That’s the Catholic formula of making sure that we check with the Church to make sure that we are not running in vain. It is to the Church that we show ourselves. It is the Church which approves how we divide the Word of God.

What did you think, that you could approve yourself?

The writings we glean from come from the FOUNDERS of the Church with the understanding that their words were inspired by God when they wrote them and considered to be the word of God.

All of them were members of the infallible Church. The writing of the New Testament was the first exercise of infallible Teaching in written form by the Catholic Church.

Couple that with the understanding that the Spirit of God is our primary teacher. Have you not read 1st. John 2:27,? "But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you,…

THAT is a Sacramental Teaching. We receive this anointing in Confirmation. Have you been Confirmed?

Couple that with the understanding that God still has prophet who have not bowed to Baal. …

The Catholic Church doesn’t answer to Rome. The Catholic Church answers only to God. Itis God who speaks through the Catholic Church:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria,
If we are flawed, and I know we are, so are you. You have no spiritual leverage over us. Your flaws and weaknesses are well known in the world, both doctrinally and relationally.

We should be able to grow together in grace because we are supposed to be fellows workers of God’s harvest, but some refuse to be of the same mindset because they want the rule.

And THAT is the Catholic advantage.

You and I are fallible. But the Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from Teaching error.

Here’s the thing. You have faith that the Holy Spirit protected the authors of Scripture from error when they sat down to write it. You believe that the “autographs” are without error. Not the copy in your hand. But you refuse to believe that God can protect His Word when it is taught by the Church orally through the centuries.

Here’s what Scripture says:

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We believe that Jesus Christ Teaches through His Church and that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from Teaching error. And that this has continued unabated from the time of the Apostles. Not only did the Church write the New Testament without error, but she selected the books of the OT without error. And she has continued to Teach the Doctrines of Jesus Christ from before the New Testament was written and before the Bible was put together to this very day. And will continue to do so to the end. Because Jesus Christ will be with His Church, to the end.

 

[De_Maria]

You are saying more than what the scripture you used said. In other words, you are reading your personal bias into the passage as if Peter was the only Apostle and all authority was given specifically to him above and beyond the others.

Then why did Jesus give Simon the name, “Rock”? To show that Simon would be he to whom all must turn who want to know God’s will. There is a precedent for this in Scripture:

Exodus 18:14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?15 And Moses said unto his father in law,
Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

God put Moses in a position of authority over the people. Jesus has done the same thing with Simon. Jesus has appointed Simon as Shepherd over His flock.

John 21:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Jesus gave Simon His own name, “Rock” or “Peter”.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,

Jesus, speaking to Simon, names him “Rock”. That is the meaning of the name “Peter”. Heretofore, the only Rock in Scripture has been God. Therefore, Jesus has given Simon, His own name. It means that Simon is now God’s representative upon earth. The rest follows logically.

and upon this rock I will build my church;

Since Peter is Christ’s representative, it is logical that Jesus would organize His Church around St. Peter. This is why we can say that the Church is the Body of Christ. It is Christ’s CORPORATION. St. Peter is the Chief Officer. The Apostles the Board of Directors.

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Again, because Peter is Christ’s representative, it is logical that the Church will prevail against the gates of hell.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Everything which Peter binds upon earth is bound in heaven. Everything he looses upon earth is loosed in heaven. That is not only infallibility. That is also saving power. God has given the office of Peter awesome power. And all that we can do is sit back and gasp:

Matthew 9:8
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Yeah! Christ willed the Pope’s teachings Ex cathedra, infallible!

 

[Cathoholic]

TgGodsway:

If someone can give me a clear teaching from the Apostles on progressive justification, in light of the many examples from scripture where it is treated as an act, I may consider it.

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From St. John the Revelator . . .

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. . . "He that is justified, let him be justified further still."

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(Notice you CAN be “further” justified)

.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Cathoholic]

From the Council of Trent Session VI, Chapter X . . .

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CHAPTER X.

On the increase of Justification received.

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified, as it is written; He that is just, let him be justified still; and again, Be not afraid to be justified even to death; and also, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. And this increase of justification holy Church begs, when she prays, “Give unto us, O Lord, increase of faith, hope, and charity.”

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http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch6.htm