Faith+Sacraments

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Look, he was not completely wrong. Having said that, I can also say that about the Mormons and JWs, Buddhists and Muslims. I must then ask, So what?

Do Catholic scholars teach that the Pope is the antichrist? Holy Orders are not needed? The Eucharist stops being the Eucharist at the end of the service? That confession is not needed? That we are saved by sitting on our butts because “Faith alone” will save us?

How about you and Itwin (and any others) read up on Erasmus, whom Fr. Luther admired for his intelligence and education…

…until he DARED disagree with ‘Pope Luther’, and then Erasmus could just go straight to hell with the rest of them.

Keep your eyes on the road. If you focus on the ditch, you will end up there.
 
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You are a relative youngster.

Not that it matters, but the following both colors and flavors my responses: Since I joined here, three cancers (PTCL-NOS, AITL, MDS), 18 chemotherapy drugs in nine regimens, total body irradiation, a stem cell transplant, Graft-Versus-Host-Disease, hypertension, osteoporosis, type II diabetes, cataracts, scleroderma, kidney impairment, two years of high dose steroids, and the hits just keep on coming!

I may have used up 50% of my remaining life just typing this out. However, I am delighted to be anywhere.

Congrats on your move. Need swimming lessons? 😉
 
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Reuben_J said:
However, what is your recourse to if you should sin? Or is after having true faith, you will not sin no more? Or if you sin, it’s inconsequential anyway?
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Pray to God that we’ve sinned and pray for strength to avoid it. ‘Confessing to one another’ is encouraged and have someone we trust to hold us accountable and help us avoid sin.
 
I take it that you are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. In that case, please open that NIV to:

Mark 2:5, read and ponder it for a moment.
Then, read Luke 5:20. and ponder it for a moment.
Then read Luke 7:48, and likewise.

You will notice a pattern. in each and every recorded scriptural cases of Jesus forgiving sin, He told the sinner, audibly, that their sins had been forgiven. He set the pattern.

If you do not confess to a Priest - who forgives sin in the person of Christ, and with Christ’s authority (2 Corinthians 2:10), what do you hear?

Crickets.

Personally, I find “I absolve you of your sin” to be more spiritually comforting that crickets.

Something to ponder, as that is how our Lord established His Church, and that is how the Church functions to this very day.
 
Yes, I’m a Protestant, ‘non-denominational’. We believe we can confess directly to God. We know from reading Scripture that we are forgiven.
 
Brace yourself, or just skip to the next response.

I know what bible Christians believe and I flat out reject it as unbiblical. First, where did Jesus teach bible alone? Bible as sole rule? Bible at all?

He did not. European man invented that.

Of course we confess to God (let’s not be ridiculous), but Jesus gave the Apostles power - power - over sin. John 20 and 21. You seem to reject that biblical teaching. Hmmm…
  1. Christ is who forgives sin in the Catholic Church. Anyone who tells you different is mistaken or lying to you. He does so through the Priest or Bishop. Read Paul!
    2 Corinthians 2 and 2 Corinthians 5. Paul’s ministry of reconciliation. Forgiving sin in the person of Christ. 100% biblical.
  2. You have never heard the words of absolution. Never. How do you know God forgives you? Read James 4:2-3! "You ask and do not receive because you ask amiss!
“Let him who has ears for hearing listen!” You claim to follow Jesus, but refuse to listen to those whom He sent. Luke 10:16.
  1. In the Catholic Church, the presumption of any action by God is a sin. You do not wave the bible at God and force Him to do anything. Neither is He bound to forgive anything.
I cannot risk my eternity on what, to me, is obviously shallow and man-made theology.
 
po18guy said:
Look, he was not completely wrong. Having said that, I can also say that about the Mormons and JWs, Buddhists and Muslims. I must then ask, So what?

Do Catholic scholars teach that the Pope is the antichrist? Holy Orders are not needed? The Eucharist stops being the Eucharist at the end of the service? That confession is not needed? That we are saved by sitting on our butts because “Faith alone” will save us?
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A focus on his personality is irrelevant. If you wish to focus on his doctrine, but more importantly since he was just one man, focus on the tradition within the Church that he was a central participant in, then a good and profitable conversation can be had.

Take note that none of those you mention did Luther (or Lutherans) teach.
  1. they taught and teach that the office is anti ( opposed to )Christ. No one pope is the Anti Christ.
  2. the confessions directly state the importance of AS.
  3. they teach that nothing is the sacrament outside its intended use. The opposition was to Corpus Christi processions, etc. Lutheran laity can and do take consecrated body and blood to sit ins, etc
  4. sola fide does not teach we the regenerate can simply sit on our butts. A simple reading of the confessions can dispell that falsehood
 
po18guy said:
You are a relative youngster.
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Tell that to the people I work with. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Since I joined, prostate cancer (Lord, hear to the prayers of your saint Peregrine), and knee replacements. Alas, nothing by comparison prayers for His healing for you.
po18guy said:
I may have used up 50% of my remaining life just typing this out. However, I am delighted to be anywhere.
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As Spock would say; "peace and long life ".
po18guy said:
Congrats on your move. Need swimming lessons?
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If I need to do further swimming, I will draw on the lessons learned from parents and the Lutheran and Anglican traditions
 
I’ve been away from a computer for a few days. As I filter out the Luther Bashing/Defending and faith alone bashing I see I’ve got a couple of different answers.
Arkansan said:
The difference between the Catholic doctrine of the sacraments and the Protestant is that the Catholic Church holds that sacraments actually confer grace, whereas most Protestants hold that they merely symbolize it. However, some Protestants, such as Lutherans, agree with the catholic view of the sacraments.
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AugustTherese said:
As @Arkansan so beautifully said, sanctifying grace is most vital in meriting justification and increasing in it. The Sacraments were not instituted by Christ for us to passively and solely receive forgiveness of sins through ‘faith alone’, but to also share in the divine life by cooperating with infused, sanctifying graced conferred by the Sacraments. With this sanctifying grace, we can increase our justification before God; this is exactly why Our Lord revealed different levels of glory in Heaven among the Saints.
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This seems to indicated that, yes, the sacraments are part of the salvation process. Therefore my equation of faith+sacraments+works is true. It seems that all three work together to bring about and increase justification and forgiveness before God.

From an evangelical mindset grace brings us to faith and then faith is how we receive grace as we live our lives. The sacraments therefore are symbols and reminders of our relationship with Christ and what He has done for us.

Of course, from a Catholic viewpoint, none but Catholics and Orthodox actually have the sacrament of the Eucharist and Confession because we do not have Priest who can validly give those sacraments.
 
Thanks for the post. I have no problem with it and I agree with your first paragraph. Your mentioning about the Evangelical’s perspective is noted.

Catholics do not believe in faith alone. If there is any objection, this would be the one.

Maybe it is a slip of your tongue, but Sacraments, for Catholics, are not symbolic but graces. The posters that you mentioned had explained them well in details, there is no disagreement there, if I understand correctly.
 
No problem. Any information is knowledge for me. Definition of terminologies often differ among Christians, so I just want to make sure that they are understood as intended.
 
lanman87 said:
This seems to indicated that, yes, the sacraments are part of the salvation process.
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Agreed.
Therefore my equation of faith+sacraments+works is true. It seems that all three work together to bring about and increase justification and forgiveness before God.
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Agreed.

Not to confuse the issue. Faith and good works, do so, as well. But not as efficaciously as do the works of God which we call the Sacraments.

This is why the Catholic Church does not deny that people outside the Catholic Church can still be saved.
819"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
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That’s exactly how Dr Bouchop at the Wittenberg center at the university of North Dakota describes it.
 
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