Faith Saves apart from works in Romans

[foundthelight]

Please forgive me for getting us off the topic of Romans.

 

[Steadfast_love]

For those of you who think that I am taking a protestant view of it, you are mistaken. I do not believe in total depravity and I do believe in the Catholic teaching that we are sanctified and made worthy of heaven by Grace through faith. This requires our participation with God by yielding to his grace but most of all in having FAITH in GOD that HE can literally CHANGE us! This is not so far fetched if you believe in GRACE and have FAITH in GOD. We can not change ourselves only God can but we must let him.

However in the book of Romans, Paul does not mention Faith and works but ONLY faith.

I think you are taking the Protestant view, namely that if Protestants are right then the Church is wrong. Wheras the Catholic teaching is that the fullness of truth subsists in the Catholic church, and elements of truth are found in other churches.

So if someone says “Jesus was born” they have an element of truth but not the fullness of truth. If someone says “Jesus is Lord” then they too have an element of truth. Same with “he died” and “he rose again” and every other element of truth. But it doesn’t follow that if Protestants believe in one of those elements that the other elements of truth are suddenly untrue.

Likewise if someone says “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Rom 10:13. That’s an element of truth, but the fullness of truth includes the other salvation stuff. Baptism, repentence, a right heart, what the name of the Lord is etc…

Remember: Catholics belive that you can be saved by grace alone (babies), grace and faith alone (baptism of desire) or grace faith and works alone (most people.) Just because the Protestants believe only one of those doesn’t mean that the rest are false.

 

[Fidelis]

However in the book of Romans, Paul does not mention Faith and works but ONLY faith.

Are you purposely ignoring Romans 2:6-11 or did you miss post #15?

[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.There is no partiality with God.

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s take all of the books in context shall we? The entire book of Galatians, Romans, Ephesians and Colossians speaks of not relying on works for salvation.

The book of James is talking about people who only give lip service to their faith. Yes, we are to have works but we are saved FOR good works not BY good works.

"I would not work my soul to save,
For that, the Lord has done.

But I would work like any slave
for love of God’s dear Son."

We are saved by the grace of God and are justified/regenerated by His grace in order to perform good works, and by these works we shall be judged:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

John 5:28-29

**28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

God bless,
Michael

 

[Fidelis]

Let’s take all of the books in context shall we? The entire book of Galatians, Romans, Ephesians and Colossians speaks of not relying on works for salvation.

Rubbish. They are largely addressing the controversy between the Judaizers and the early Church on the necessity of keeping the perscriptions of the old Law.

The book of James is talking about people who only give lip service to their faith.

More rubbish. He is talking to saved Christians about salvation and the necessity of works in that salvation. That’s why he use the examples of Abraham and Rahab. They were saved both by their faith AND their works along with that faith. These works are performed, not in our own power, but by God’s grace.

We are saved by GRACE through faith working in love (Galatians 5:6), which is the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5. 16:26).

 

[suupah]

Are you purposely ignoring Romans 2:6-11 or did you miss post #15?

oops sorry. Yes this is good evidence of being judged by works by God in Romans.

 

[mikeledes]

The point of Romans and Galatians is to address those among the Jewish people who believed that they automatically had a special relationship with God due to their biological descent from Abraham and/or their observance of the Law of Moses. When Paul refers to “The Law”, he is specifically referring to the “Mosaic Law.” The Jews claimed that because they possessed the Law of Moses and were descended from Abraham, they automatically had a right to God’s mercy and favors. Paul condemns that:

Romans 9:6-8

**6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. **

Romans 2:28-29

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

We must understand Romans and Galatians within its theological and historical context. Many Jews claimed that a Gentile can only be saved if he/she becomes Jewish first (i.e. circumcised and observe the Law of Moses) - read Acts 15 - since only Jews can have a special relationship with God. Paul argues that no one has a right to God’s mercy, not even the Jews.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[suupah]

short commercial break…

I need a Catholic bible with good commentary. my NAB has pretty sparse and vague notes. any suggestions?

ok back to the originally scheduled program

 

[mikeledes]

Christians are no longer under “The Law.” The Law only served to point out our sins, but did not provide the means to overcome them. However, Christians are under a Law:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;

Christians are under the Law of Christ. What is the Law of Christ?

James 2:8

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well

John 15:12

12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

The law of Christ is love and by this law we shall be judged…

James 2:12-13

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.

Matthew 25:34-40

**34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ **

Good works are the fruit of the love of God in our hearts. We shall be judged by our works. We shall be judged on how much we have loved. That’s why Jesus states:

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’[a] and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ryanoneil]

short commercial break…
ok back to the originally scheduled program

haydock1859.tripod.com/index.html

 

[suupah]

haydock1859.tripod.com/index.html

AWESOME!! Thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

You’re welcome!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Are you purposely ignoring Romans 2:6-11 or did you miss post #15?

Bravo Fidelis, that is an excellent passage. I would also toss in the following that I didn’t see with a skim of this thread.

Romans 8:13,15-17 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live…you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, “Abba, Father!” The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

This shows us how we are to “live” and that we must endure “suffering” to reach glorification.

Other verses worthy of note:

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. (contrast is made to obey the new law…separate from “works of the law” in the first half of Romans).

Throughout Romans 12-14 Paul tells us how to “live”. i.e. live the faith, not just profess the faith (Paul even cites the commandments in v. 13:9 just as Jesus did when asked what we must do to inherit eternal life in Mark 10:17-19). It converges in Romans 14:12 So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God). You’ll have to give an account of yourself at judgment…and this verse is in the context of 3 chapters worth of how we are to live.

 

[Jim_Baur]

This thread demonstrates that one cannot prove faith.

We believe.

Faith is not obtained by works, that is, intellectual study.

Faith is not proved by works, that is, intellectual study and agrument.

Nor can one prove faith by intellectual endeavors.

We believe.

However, love does believe all things.

Love is in charge of faith.

Faith is inferior to love.

Faith is subordinate to love.

Love is the greatest.

In God’s Infinite Love and Eternal Beauty.

What does one love–that is the most important.

And God loves us first. Then we can use His Gifts of love to return His love with the New Heart He gave us.

In God’s Infinite Love and Eternal Beauty.

 

[suupah]

I have a new question that actually came to me during mass as i looked upon the crucifix.

What did Jesus’ Death purchase for us? If Abraham was justified by his faith and works aside from Jesus’ death on the Cross, is it possible that just by faith in God and our works we can be justified?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I have a new question that actually came to me during mass as i looked upon the crucifix.

What did Jesus’ Death purchase for us? If Abraham was justified by his faith and works aside from Jesus’ death on the Cross, is it possible that just by faith in God and our works we can be justified?

WHO said Christ’s merits had nothing to do with Abraham or any other Christian being justified?

The merits of Christ’s Passion and Death made the forgiveness of all sins possible, however it is important to recognize the distinction between Protestants and Catholics here.
Here is an example I came up with of how Catholics see the atonement and how Protestants see it:Lets say a group of kids crash the family car, the Father is upset about this and needs to spank the kids…but the mother steps in…

-Protestants would say the mother would have to receive the equivalent beating that the children deserved and thus the Father would be satisfied.

-Catholics on the other hand reject that notion because the Father could never act in such a way towards His wife. Rather, the wife stepped in and spent all day in a hot-sweaty kitchen to prepare the Father a nice multi-course home cooked meal. The Father was so pleased at this act that He in turn decided not to discipline the children, only requiring a simple apology.
It is important to note how each side sees the atonement.

 

[Steadfast_love]

What did Jesus’ Death purchase for us? If Abraham was justified by his faith and works aside from Jesus’ death on the Cross, is it possible that just by faith in God and our works we can be justified?

Romans 5:21-22 :bible1:
[21] fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
[22] That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.”
[23] But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone,
[24] but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Abraham’s faith was reckoned to him as righteousness because he fully believed that God would keep His promises. But if, as you suggest, God did not keep his promise through Jesus’ death on the cross, then the whole thing falls apart. Follow along through Romans 5:21-25 backwards step by step.

1. Jesus was “put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
2. Which is why we have “rightiousness reckoned to us who believe”
3. That applies to Abraham as much as it does to us.
4. The whole reason Abraham had his “faith reckoned as rightiousness…”
5. …was because God was trustworthy in “fufiling His promises.”

RESULT: Abraham’s justification and ours flows from God keeping his promise through the death and resurection of his Son. What if that death and resurection never happened?

1. Jesus was NOT “put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
2. Which is why we do NOT have “rightiousness reckoned to us who believe”
3. That applies to Abraham as much as it does to us.
4. The whole reason Abraham did NOT have his faith reckoned as rightiousness…
5. …was because God was NOT trustworthy in fufiling His promises.

RESULT: Abraham is NOT justified, we are NOT justified and God is NOT trustworthy if Jesus did NOT die on the cross.

How blessed are we that Christ realy and truly did die for atonement of our sins and of the whole world, including Abraham.

 

[suupah]

Romans 5:21-22 :bible1:

[21] fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

[22] That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.”

[23] But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone,

[24] but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Abraham’s faith was reckoned to him as righteousness because he fully believed that God would keep His promises. But if, as you suggest, God did not keep his promise through Jesus’ death on the cross, then the whole thing falls apart. Follow along through Romans 5:21-25 backwards step by step.

1. Jesus was “put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
2. Which is why we have “rightiousness reckoned to us who believe”
3. That applies to Abraham as much as it does to us.
4. The whole reason Abraham had his “faith reckoned as rightiousness…”
5. …was because God was trustworthy in “fufiling His promises.”

RESULT: Abraham’s justification and ours flows from God keeping his promise through the death and resurection of his Son. What if that death and resurection never happened?

1. Jesus was NOT “put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.”
2. Which is why we do NOT have “rightiousness reckoned to us who believe”
3. That applies to Abraham as much as it does to us.
4. The whole reason Abraham did NOT have his faith reckoned as rightiousness…
5. …was because God was NOT trustworthy in fufiling His promises.

RESULT: Abraham is NOT justified, we are NOT justified and God is NOT trustworthy if Jesus did NOT die on the cross.

How blessed are we that Christ realy and truly did die for atonement of our sins and of the whole world, including Abraham.

That was excellent! I have to remind myself that christ’s sacrifice was eternal. I always remember the future tense of eternal but sometimes i forget the past tense.

 

[Steadfast_love]

Thanks!

I’m from a Protestant background so I’ve lived most of my life smacking my head against the same mistakes that you’re just starting to discover. For me, the key to reparing my understanding of scripture was given by St. Hilary of Poiters. Circa 350 AD…For when [the Arians] say that God alone is true, alone is righteous, alone is wise, alone is invisible, alone is immortal, they are raising up this word alone as a barrier to cut off the Son from His share in these attributes.Watch out for that word ‘alone.’ When you ask “Faith alone?” right there you’ve already commited yourself to one of two non-Catholic conclusions:Yes
No

Whereas the Catholic answer is both. Initialy we receive eternal life through faith (apart from works) but we keep it through faith and works. Notice what’s said at Easter Baptism?What do you ask of the Church of God’?
Faith
What does Faith offer you?
Everlasting life.
If then you wish to enter life, keep the Commandments…

Playing “Faith alone or not” is like trying to decide if we should obey only one commandment (and break the other nine) or break all ten. Neither is right.

 

[DLC]

The Bible does not teach that faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Do you remember Rom 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
NASU