Faith Saves apart from works in Romans

[suupah]

I just finished reading Romans from front to back as a whole. I was careful not to separate one chapter from another as Paul builds the case that justification comes from faith apart from works.

Without going outside of Romans, can anyone show me where Paul is teaching that faith and works justify? Please do not use single verses and only use them in context.

as an aside i am a devout Catholic who believes that faith and works are two sides of the same coin and necessary for salvation. I just didn’t see that in Romans.

 

[ryanoneil]

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

(Rom 2:5-13) By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who **observe the law **will be justified.

Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20, The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Peace,

Ryan

 

[rwoehmke]

I think after all the polemics of the past that the Catholic Church and some of the other denominations are in agreement that we are saved by Faith, by grace freely given by the Lord and not something we have earned or deserved because of our works. Works are also inspired by freely given grace but do not earn salvation. They are evidence, the manifestation if you will that shows that Faith is alive in us and we are doing God’s will. The other side of the coin.

Paul recognized early on that the works of the Mosaic Law did not save one, and while they might demonstrate Faith the works of The Law were no longer deemed necessary for justification which came through Faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim_Baur]

LOVE + FAITH = RIGHTEOUSNESS

St. Matthew 22: 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

I Corinthians 13: 13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I Corinthians 13: 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Ephesians 6: 10 Finally, draw your strength from the Lord and from his mighty power. 11 Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. 13 Therefore, put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground. 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all (the) flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit.

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

LOVE + faith = RIGTHEOUSNESS

St. Matthew 22: 36-40
I Corinthians 13: 13
I Corinthians 13: 2
I Thessalonians 5: 8
Ephesians 6: 14
Love is First!
Love is Greatest!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Justification+Sanctification+Actual+grace+Romans

I think Catholics need to define the following before reading Romans, Justification, Sanctification, Actual grace and Sanctifying Grace.

How many references to good works do you see in this chapter?

Romans 12

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but** be transformed by the renewing of your mind**. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

Love
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. **10Be devoted **to one another in brotherly love. **Honor **one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice **hospitality. **
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. **Be careful to do what is right **in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
**“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. **
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

If I understand St. Paul, St. Paul did define justification. Justificaiton is has two parts, love and faith.

The Holy Bible does define its teachings. Unlike the non-biblical world of today, there were no dictionaries, no rules even for spelling, little or no grammar rules as of today. And the Holy Bible does define righteousness/justification: the shield of righteousness has two parts–love and faith. The definition is from St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Maui71]

Love is not passive - love is active you have to “do” love, that is the only way it is received it has to be given. To love is: to sacrifice (work), is to give (work), is to be in a state of (work). If you do not work at loving then it dies or it never was love but infatuation or vanity.

Love cannot be manifested by acting like a rock; still and inactive. The greatest act (work) of love was Christ suffering (work) on the Cross.

Why am I so focused on Love because Paul said: Justification has two parts, love and faith.

By love he clearly means work. If you have ever loved then you have sacrificed and have worked. If you give (verb – work) your love then you have worked.

Unfortunately the modern association of the word love is more of like than actual love. I love my car, I love my diamond ring, I love my 48” plasma high def, surround sound TV, I love my dress, yet that is really only like or worse infatuation.

So as the great bard of Stratford upon Avon said:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

 

[porthos11]

I just finished reading Romans from front to back as a whole. I was careful not to separate one chapter from another as Paul builds the case that justification comes from faith apart from works.

Without going outside of Romans, can anyone show me where Paul is teaching that faith and works justify? Please do not use single verses and only use them in context.

as an aside i am a devout Catholic who believes that faith and works are two sides of the same coin and necessary for salvation. I just didn’t see that in Romans.

I agree, context is critical. That’s why if one looks at the whole context of Romans, the works Paul refers to are not charitable works of mercy, but rather the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law, especially that of circumcision.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

Works are also inspired by freely given grace but do not earn salvation. They are evidence, the manifestation if you will that shows that Faith is alive in us and we are doing God’s will. The other side of the coin.

That would not be correct. The Catholic Church understands works to be meritorous in the sight of God. If by salvation you meant the reward of eternal life, then works certainly contributes to it. The initial grace of justification is a complete free gift from God; but Christian works is not just “evidence” of faith, it truly has merit and contributes to salvation.

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
[See http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html”]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, and the clarification from the Apostolic See]

 

[Fidelis]

I just finished reading Romans from front to back as a whole. I was careful not to separate one chapter from another as Paul builds the case that justification comes from faith apart from works.

Without going outside of Romans, can anyone show me where Paul is teaching that faith and works justify? Please do not use single verses and only use them in context.

as an aside i am a devout Catholic who believes that faith and works are two sides of the same coin and necessary for salvation. I just didn’t see that in Romans.

The only way that one can get from Romans that we are justified by faith apart from works is to make the same erroneous presumptions that many Protestants do when reading Romans: that when reading Romans, whenever you come to the word “works” or even “works of the law” you read it as referring to following God’s moral prescriptions – doing good and avoiding evil. In fact, however, Paul is not talking about these.

When Paul uses these words in Romans,** he is almost always referring to the Jewish ritual and ceremonial laws, especially circumcision. **This is almost the whole point of Romans: it was addressing the errors of the Judaizers in the early Roman church such as are being addressed in Galatians and Acts chapter 15, for example.

Try reading Romans again in this light (that Paul is referring to the Jewish ceremonial Laws) and you will gain a more accurate understanding.

 

[suupah]

I agree, context is critical. That’s why if one looks at the whole context of Romans, the works Paul refers to are not charitable works of mercy, but rather the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law, especially that of circumcision.

What you said really resonates with me and I completely agree. First that circumcision and the laws do not justify you before God and that charitable works of mercy are meritorious.

That being said, can you show me in Romans where it says that charitable works of mercy are necessary for justification?

 

[rwoehmke]

That would not be correct. The Catholic Church understands works to be meritorous in the sight of God. If by salvation you meant the reward of eternal life, then works certainly contributes to it. The initial grace of justification is a complete free gift from God; but Christian works is not just “evidence” of faith, it truly has merit and contributes to salvation.

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
[See http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html”]Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

, and the clarification from the Apostolic See]

I stand corrected. Thankyou.

 

[suupah]

The only way that one can get from Romans that we are justified by faith apart from works is to make the same erroneous presumptions that many Protestants do when reading Romans: that when reading Romans, whenever you come to the word “works” or even “works of the law” you read it as referring to following God’s moral prescriptions – doing good and avoiding evil. In fact, however, Paul is not talking about these.

When Paul uses these words in Romans,** he is almost always referring to the Jewish ritual and ceremonial laws, especially circumcision. **This is almost the whole point of Romans: it was addressing the errors of the Judaizers in the early Roman church such as are being addressed in Galatians and Acts chapter 15, for example.

Try reading Romans again in this light (that Paul is referring to the Jewish ceremonial Laws) and you will gain a more accurate understanding.

I have heard this argument before. In fact it was a debate between Tim Staples and a fundamentalist that prompted me to read Romans. Tim argued that Paul was speaking of the ceremonial rituals of the law as well. And in fact I believe that the works Paul was referring to were not just the ceremonial works but the aspect of the mosaic law that showed us what sin is.

Romans3:9-20
Well, then, are we better off? Not entirely, for we have already brought the charge against Jews and Greeks alike that they are all under the domination of sin, as it is written:

“There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; their mouths are full of bitter cursing. Their feet are quick to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they know not. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that what the law says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God, since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.

Circumcision was considered what made one a jew. or a member of the covenant family of God. Paul appears to be saying that adherence to the law is what makes you a covenant member of the family of God not your circumcision. He was speaking about how you live your life…

Romans2:21-29

You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples? You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.” Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law. One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.

I don’t see any reference to any jewish ceremonial rituals other than circumcision. The reference to circumcision was in reference to what actually makes you a jew or covenant member of God’s family.

 

[Fidelis]

I don’t see any reference to any jewish ceremonial rituals other than circumcision. The reference to circumcision was in reference to what actually makes you a jew or covenant member of God’s family.

Actually, it’s all through there:

Romans2:21-29

You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples? You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For, as it is written, “Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles.” Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law. One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.

“The law” refers to the whole written law which was kept by fulfilling it’s ritual and ceremonial aspects. Circumcision, in addition to being what marked one out as being a Jew, was just the point of reference used by Paul and his opponents in debating whether one had to follow the whole law.

 

[Fidelis]

What you said really resonates with me and I completely agree. First that circumcision and the laws do not justify you before God and that charitable works of mercy are meritorious.

That being said, can you show me in Romans where it says that charitable works of mercy are necessary for justification?

For one, Romans 2:6-11:

[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.There is no partiality with God.

 

[justinthemartyr]

And so we see that obedience is necessary in the long run.

It is only by the grace of God and nothing apart from it that we are saved.Faith is the initial gift that we receive and utilize. Obedience to God is necessary if we live long enough in relationship with Him.

Faith is believing and believing is not separate from good works. Belief means reliance not defiance.

 

[suupah]

Actually, it’s all through there:
“The law” refers to the whole written law which was kept by fulfilling it’s ritual and ceremonial aspects. Circumcision, in addition to being what marked one out as being a Jew, was just the point of reference used by Paul and his opponents in debating whether one had to follow the whole law.

I see what you are saying.

However I don’t see him mentioning any rituals in Romans ie animal sacrifices for atonement etc. he only mentions laws of conduct and circumcision.

I feel that he was saying that nobody can live up to the law perfectly. it is impossible. Therefore Christ did away with the law and by pure Grace we are no longer accountable to it.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I see what you are saying.

However I don’t see him mentioning any rituals in Romans ie animal sacrifices for atonement etc. he only mentions laws of conduct and circumcision.

I feel that he was saying that nobody can live up to the law perfectly. it is impossible. Therefore Christ did away with the law and by pure Grace we are no longer accountable to it.

Christ did not do away with the Old Covenant. He fulfilled it in at least two ways: one, as fulfilled in a prophecy. Two, fulfilled in the sense as completing or perfecting.

Furthermore, no human or old self can keep the law. But with our new hearts and the love of God poured into them, we can keep the law. We like the seed planted, constantly grow. The more we grow more we keep it.

 

[ryanoneil]

Rom. 4:1-6 – What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

To him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith, we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) which lead to justification and eternal life in Rom. 2:7-13

*eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works . . . But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. . . . For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who **observe the law *will be justified.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[suupah]

Christ did not do away with the Old Covenant. He fulfilled it in at least two ways: one, as fulfilled in a prophecy. Two, fulfilled in the sense as completing or perfecting.

Furthermore, no human or old self can keep the law. But with our new hearts and the love of God poured into them, we can keep the law. We like the seed planted, constantly grow. The more we grow more we keep it.

I agree.

But i am looking for evidence in the book of Romans.