Faith Saves apart from works in Romans

[Fidelis]

I see what you are saying.

However I don’t see him mentioning any rituals in Romans ie animal sacrifices for atonement etc. he only mentions laws of conduct and circumcision.

As I said, when Paul refers to “the Law” he has all these in mind. How do we know this? Not only because it is clear from the conflicts between the Church and the Judaizers in the NT (including Romans) but because in Jewish writings contemporary with Romans (like in the Dead Sea Scrolls), “the Law” is used as a catch-all phrase for all of the Jewish ritual/sacrifice/purity/moral laws.

I feel that he was saying that nobody can live up to the law perfectly. it is impossible. Therefore Christ did away with the law and by pure Grace we are no longer accountable to it.

Christ only did away with the ritual and sacrificial laws (see the Letter to the Hebrews), but he did **not **do away with the moral laws, which are based on the Natural Law which all men are bound to obey (see Romans 1–2). That’s why the New Testament is chock-full of admonitions to do this and don’t do that – or else (like the quote from Romans 2 I gave you). If we weren’t going to be held accountable for these moral prescripts, it would not make sense for the NT writers (including Jesus) to keep expounding upon them.

 

[banjo]

I feel that he was saying that nobody can live up to the law perfectly. it is impossible. Therefore Christ did away with the law and by pure Grace we are no longer accountable to it.

I think those who have cited Rm 2:7-11 have answered your initial question. St. Paul refers to this in Gal 5:6 and 6:7-8; a letter written prior to Rm.

With regard to the above quote from your previous post, it may be of use in trying to understand St. Paul to know that he claimed to be “blameless” as regards righteousness under the law (Phil 3:6).
See also Ps 14 which he cites in Rm 3:10-12…particularly verse 4 which he doesn’t quote in Rm.

 

[suupah]

Rom. 4:1-6 – What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. But* when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness***. So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: To him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works.

Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith, we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) which lead to justification and eternal life in Rom. 2:7-13

I agree that works outside of faith creates a system of debt as opposed to doing it out of love and faith which merits rewards from God. I have heard Catholic Apologist Bob Sungenis speak on this many times.

In James’ epistle it gives the counter argument that Abraham’s works demonstrated his faith and that a faith without works is dead. In other words Faith is a verb.

God always gives you a call to action and gives you the grace, through your Faith, to carry out what he calls you to do. I believe that after your work is completed you learn to trust more in God’s grace and your faith is increased which opens the door to more grace. And that without that grace, through faith, you would be unable to do the works which he gives you to do.

The faith always precedes works as it is written in

John15:5 “Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because** without me you can do nothing**.”

And if you don’t stay in faith

John15:6

“Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.”

Contrast this with Romans11:21

Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

on and on…

I must regress

In the text you quoted Paul seems to be pretty clear that Abraham’s righteousness was credited to him apart from his works. It doesn’t say that his works are credited through his faith. it says specifically:"*when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

So i ask again…*

** Where in the Book of Romans does Paul talk about being justified by your works in addition to your faith?**

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works . . . But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. . . . For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who **observe the law **will be justified.

Peace,

Ryan

Yes this is the case. But i believe he was talking about those who fulfill the law perfectly. However later on he says that no one fulfills the law and that the only way we can be saved is through God’s generosity and his grace for us to accept it. we only access this through our faith.

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes this is the case. But i believe he was talking about those who fulfill the law perfectly.

I respectfully disagree. Paul is talking about the Judgement of everyone. There is nothing to indicate that he is only talking about those who followed the law perfectly. He says those who seek, do, and observe good works.

who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those **who seek **glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

However later on he says that no one fulfills the law and that the only way we can be saved is through God’s generosity and his grace for us to accept it.

I AGREE, but have to repeat myself. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20, The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing)

we only access this through our faith.

AND GOOD WORKS. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Fidelis]

suupah-

It appears you are still confusing the New Testament distinction between “works” or “works of the Law” (the Jewish ceremonial/sacrificial/purity requirements) and the moral law —“good works;” i.e., in the Catholic understanding, doing good and avoiding evil.

Until you get past this you will never have clarity on this issue and will continue to have an erroneous Protestant understanding of the relationship between faith and works as it pertains to justification.

Additionally, you are being illogically restrictive in attempting to restrict answers to your questions as coming from Romans alone. Just like you cannot take Scripture verses out of context, you cannot take books of the Bible out of the context of the rest of the Bible, and you cannot even take the Bible out of the context of the entire Deposit of Faith found in the teachings of the Catholic Church. To do so is to become Protestant.

 

[SolaFide]

I just finished reading Romans from front to back as a whole. I was careful not to separate one chapter from another as Paul builds the case that justification comes from faith apart from works.

Without going outside of Romans, can anyone show me where Paul is teaching that faith and works justify? Please do not use single verses and only use them in context.

as an aside i am a devout Catholic who believes that faith and works are two sides of the same coin and necessary for salvation. I just didn’t see that in Romans.

You won’t find it. Galatians, Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, etc. all talk about how faith in Jesus Christ alone justifies us before God.

The book of James is talking about how we should walk our talk but not how we are saved.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I just finished reading Romans from front to back as a whole. I was careful not to separate one chapter from another as Paul builds the case that justification comes from faith apart from works.

Without going outside of Romans, can anyone show me where Paul is teaching that faith and works justify? Please do not use single verses and only use them in context.

as an aside i am a devout Catholic who believes that faith and works are two sides of the same coin and necessary for salvation. I just didn’t see that in Romans.

First of all you have missed the real issue, grace, (also here) the faith vs works is secondary.Rom 2

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous [justified].

Rom 6
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness [same greek word as justifcation].

Rom 13
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

Rom 14
10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
" ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.
This is the general idea. In the heart of Romans Paul teaches how we will be able to fulfill the law in the way God intended through love and the work of the Holy Spirit in us (Rom 5:1-5; 8:3-4; 8:9-14, 8:17). Also passages like 11:20-22; 14:15 show salvation can be lost through sin.

You have an oversimplified view of what Paul is teaching, for Paul faith was much more than belief, it was belief in action (Gal 5:6).

 

[foundthelight]

You won’t find it. Galatians, Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, etc. all talk about how faith in Jesus Christ alone justifies us before God.

The book of James is talking about how we should walk our talk but not how we are saved.

But what did Jesus say?

Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Joh 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Joh 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Do you acknowledge that partaking of His Body and Blood is necessary for our salvation? I do this in faith. But, by Jesus own words, it is necessary in addition to my faith.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You won’t find it. Galatians, Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, etc. all talk about how faith in Jesus Christ alone justifies us before God.

The book of James is talking about how we should walk our talk but not how we are saved.

You certainly will find it, read my previous post.
The Catholic view harmonizes Scripture, the Protestant view is a bunch of presuppositions not found in Scripture and leaves many other passages hanging and meaningless.

 

[foundthelight]

You certainly will find it, read my previous post.
The Catholic view harmonizes Scripture, the Protestant view is a bunch of presuppositions not found in Scripture and leaves many other passages hanging and meaningless.

Amen!

 

[Fidelis]

You won’t find it. Galatians, Romans, Colossians, Ephesians, etc. all talk about how faith in Jesus Christ alone justifies us before God.

Oh really? Then show me where in these books you find the words “faith” and “alone” together as in “faith alone”?

The book of James is talking about how we should walk our talk but not how we are saved.

That’s funny, because it is in James that you **will **find the only place “faith alone” appears in the Bible, as in:

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)

 

[SolaFide]

Do you acknowledge that partaking of His Body and Blood is necessary for our salvation? I do this in faith. But, by Jesus own words, it is necessary in addition to my faith.

If you mean by way of the eucharist? Absolutely NOT!

 

[SolaFide]

Oh really? Then show me where in these books you find the words “faith” and “alone” together as in “faith alone”?

That’s funny, because it is in James that you **will **find the only place “faith alone” appears in the Bible, as in:

Let’s take all of the books in context shall we? The entire book of Galatians, Romans, Ephesians and Colossians speaks of not relying on works for salvation.

The book of James is talking about people who only give lip service to their faith. Yes, we are to have works but we are saved FOR good works not BY good works.

"I would not work my soul to save,
For that, the Lord has done.

But I would work like any slave
for love of God’s dear Son."

 

[foundthelight]

If you mean by way of the eucharist? Absolutely NOT!

Then you deny that Christ meant what he said?

 

[SolaFide]

Then you deny that Christ meant what he said?

If you are referring to the passage you quoted, I deny what you think he said.

 

[foundthelight]

If you are referring to the passage you quoted, I deny what you think he said.

And just where in scripture does He, or anyone, say that the meaning of these verses in different than what they say?

For if you cannot disprove this with Scripture then you are relying on the teachings of men, not Christ. Relying on the teachings of men would seem to deny Sola Scriptura. Or do you not hold to Sola Scriptura along with Sola Fide?

 

[suupah]

And just where in scripture does He, or anyone, say that the meaning of these verses in different than what they say?

For if you cannot disprove this with Scripture then you are relying on the teachings of men, not Christ. Relying on the teachings of men would seem to deny Sola Scriptura. Or do you not hold to Sola Scriptura along with Sola Fide?

Scripture in its entirety does not teach faith alone. But it does teach faith as the beginning of salvation and without it there can be no salvation. However there are those who do good works but are not saved.

Anyways this was supposed to stay in Romans.

 

[SolaFide]

And just where in scripture does He, or anyone, say that the meaning of these verses in different than what they say?

For if you cannot disprove this with Scripture then you are relying on the teachings of men, not Christ. Relying on the teachings of men would seem to deny Sola Scriptura. Or do you not hold to Sola Scriptura along with Sola Fide?

Do you know what the meaning of the word “metaphor” is?

How about this:

Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Is Jesus saying he’s the sun? Or is it a metaphor for spiritual illumination?

Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.”

Does Jesus have hinges and a latch?

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "

Does Jesus have leaves and clusters of grapes growing off his arms or is this a metaphor?

The point is Jesus used many “I am” statements especially in the book of John to make metaphorical points. Many of those pointed to his fulfillment of the symbols the articles in the Temple which were to point to Him. Not meaning they really were Him. They aren’t meant to be taken that He is literally to be eaten.

 

[justinthemartyr]

In actuality Jesus WAS speaking metaphorically concerning these things, but He was a “type” of these things.

Also, Jesus never held up a Vine or branches, a door, or anything else He spoke of metaphorically. He DID take bread and blessed it and told them to take, eat, this IS my Body…and like wise with the wine.

He defines this thoroughly in John 6 and when questioned how this man(Jesus) can give them His flesh to eat He repeats again and again that Verily Verily(Truly Truly I say to you, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day, he who does not has no life within him.

Many of his disciples walked away saying who can hear this? they walked with him no more.

Jesus explained himself again and again literally and made no apologies about it. the entire early church believed this unanimously for the first 1500 years of Christianity and it was taught in unanimity until the revolt of luther and the rest of the persons accepting sola scriptura.
peace to you.

 

[suupah]

I really enjoy a good debate about sola scriptura and sola fide as well as interpretation about scripture but this thread is about Romans.

And as it stands I really don’t see anyone showing me where Romans teaches works.

I have heard that he is speaking of the ritual works of the law but i just don’t see the evidence for that in the text. He used as his primary example Abraham, there were no prescribed ritual works of the law or and official law at all at the time. Paul clearly used him as an example to show that FAITH and NOT works justify you before God. how much more clear can he be in Romans in this message.

For those of you who think that I am taking a protestant view of it, you are mistaken. I do not believe in total depravity and I do believe in the Catholic teaching that we are sanctified and made worthy of heaven by Grace through faith. This requires our participation with God by yielding to his grace but most of all in having FAITH in GOD that HE can literally CHANGE us! This is not so far fetched if you believe in GRACE and have FAITH in GOD. We can not change ourselves only God can but we must let him.

However in the book of Romans, Paul does not mention Faith and works but ONLY faith.