Faith vs. Works

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Here is my question:

I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.

From the Catholic stand point, love is a work. Forgiveness is a work. This is the point where the protestant tries to interpret James 2:24 and Romans showing that faith alone is needed and the faith James is talking about is a similar, but different kind of faith than Romans.

From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action. You have to do them, but you don’t need to. But protestants clearly don’t really think that, otherwise it wouldn’t be faith alone. Help me understand the subtlety of this difference.

I am NOT trying to start a thread where the dicussion breaks down into the fractured debate described above. If you can provide me an example without using Scripture, that would be great. I only say no Scripture because quoting Romans or James doesn’t help me understand what you understand. Analogies would be super.

I’ll try to post back with clarifying questions.
 
From what I understand on the subject, the issue is generally more about it seeming like Catholics “earn points” to “buy” your way into Heaven by doing good deeds.

This of course opposed to the proper understanding that Grace is unmerited and that “good works” are the fruit (because faith alone without works is dead in that it’s not producing any good fruit).

Ever see the movie Constantine? The hero’s constantly doing “good” to get to heaven but is missing the point of what a good deed really implies. It seems that it’s that attitude that some protestants think Catholics have (“points” instead of love).
 
My our own merits, we can never achieve heaven. We need God’s grace to do good.

Recommended reading: Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship. There are those who take the grace and forgiveness that Christ offered on the cross for granted. Instead we are called to respond to this precious gift.

The best way I have heard it stated is “God’s grace costs nothing, but it will cost you everything.”

Returning to James. “Show me faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.” Faith is a response to the gift that we have received and it is demonstrated in the life we live, in our good works.

By his death on the cross, we received God’s unmerited grace and forgiveness.
There is a story about a woman whose son was to be executed by Napoleon. When she pleaded for his life, Napoleon responded with “Why? What has he done to deserve mercy.” Her response, “If he deserved it, then it would not be mercy.”
 
In my humble opinion every one of these discussions that you speak of are born from a misunderstanding of Catholic traching.
How many times have you heard some variation on the, “The Catholic Church teaches a ‘Works’ Doctrine”.
The simple truth is that the Church teaches no such ting, and never has. The fact that, at various times, the Church, or some of it’s members, have emphasized the importance of works does not mean that we believe you can get to heaven by works without faith.

As to the subtle differences and so forth, I would suggest reading the catachism as a way of learning the Church’s teaching on the role of each item. I will attempt to give my understanding of how it is viewed.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be seperated. They can only be placed in “order”.


  1. *]We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
    *]Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
    *]After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existance of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
    *]Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
    *]Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

    I hope some of this helps you.

    Peace
    James
 
JRKH said:
Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be separated. They can only be placed in “order”.


  1. *]We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
    *]Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
    *]After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existance of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
    *]Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
    *]Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.
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  1. Excellent. 👍

    If one of the 5 is missing, then we are no longer justified/saved. Instead, we have “believed in vain.”

    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

    Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event.
 
JRKH said:
In my humble opinion every one of these discussions that you speak of are born from a misunderstanding of Catholic traching.
How many times have you heard some variation on the, “The Catholic Church teaches a ‘Works’ Doctrine”.
The simple truth is that the Church teaches no such ting, and never has. The fact that, at various times, the Church, or some of it’s members, have emphasized the importance of works does not mean that we believe you can get to heaven by works without faith.

As to the subtle differences and so forth, I would suggest reading the catachism as a way of learning the Church’s teaching on the role of each item. I will attempt to give my understanding of how it is viewed.

Belief, Grace, Faith, Love and Works are interwoven pieces. They cannot be seperated. They can only be placed in “order”.


  1. *]We begin with Grace. Grace is the supernatural foundation. The “seed” that God plants in every soul that enables it to find it’s way back to God.
    *]Then comes Belief. We must believe in something before anything else. If we do not believe in God, then the seed of Grace will not grow.
    *]After Belief comes Faith. The difference between belief and faith, is simply this: I may believe in the existance of banks, but do I have faith in them. Faith gets into trusting and believing in the promises of God and believing in Jesus Christ and salvation through doing the will of the Father. Learning and developing our faith is nurturing and allowing the seed of God’s grace to grow in us.
    *]Then Comes Love. Jesus places Love as the Greatest and center of all of the Law and prophets. What we Love and covet is how we know “where our heart is”. If we Love God and wish to do His will, then we will Love our neighbor unselfishly and wish to act in ways that are pleasing to our love - who is God Himself.
    *]Then comes Works. If we believe properly, that is we have a trusting belief, then works will necessarily follow. If works do not follow then there is a problem with one of the above.

    I hope some of this helps you.

    Peace
    James
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  1. “How many times have you heard some variation on the, “The Catholic Church teaches a ‘Works’ Doctrine”.
    The simple truth is that the Church teaches no such ting, and never has. The fact that, at various times, the Church, or some of it’s members, have emphasized the importance of works does not mean that we believe you can get to heaven by works without faith.”

    And also on the other hand our reformist founding fathers never preached on faith alone, of coarse this must come first otherwise it would’nt be a free gift, but there must be evidence of true saving grace, no evidence, no grace, the whole book of 1st John talks about how we are to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Paul’s, not of works lest any man boasts is speaking of the deceived using works as a substitute for saving grace.
    Matthew 7:21; Matthew 7:22; Matthew 7:23 (King James Version)
    21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth** the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done     many wonderful works**?
    23And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew you**: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
Ephesians 8 13
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace you have been saved: Paul cannot speak of this glorious work God does without reminding us that it is a gift of grace, given to the undeserving. We are not even saved by our faith, but by grace through faith.

We can think of water flowing through a hose. The water is the important part, but it is communicated through the hose. The hose does not quench your thirst; the water does. But the hose brings water to the place you can benefit from it. Grace is the water, faith the pipe.

His grace, His free, undeserved favor to mankind. An accomplished fact.”

And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: The work of salvation is God’s gift. Paul’s grammar here indicates that the words apply to the gift of salvation mentioned in Ephesians 2:4-8, and not directly to the faith mentioned in this verse.

In the original Greek when it says it is the gift of God, the it referred to is salvation, not faith. The not of yourselves referred to salvation, not to faith.

Yet, even our faith is a gift of God. We cannot believe in Jesus unless God does a prior work in us, for we are blinded by our own deadness and by the god of this age.

Is not faith the gift of God? Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him; the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself.”

Since God initiates salvation, we should begin our evangelism with asking God to do the initiating, by praying!
 
Another way to see this is that Paul and James are complimentary, not contradictory. Specifically, Paul notes twice in Romans that we should have “the obedience of faith” Likewise he states elsewhere that a faith without love is a clanging gong. We might remember that love has varied meanings and the meaning I think Paul is refering to here is the hebrew concept of hesed (transliteration) meaning the love a subject owes his King. If so, his comments about the the obedience of faith and faith lacking love (hesed) fit nicely with James and the many other places that state you must “keep My Commandments”.

This also, I think, shows the difference between a saving faith and a faith of demons where one knows who Jesus is but still disobeys (rebels). This also demonstrates that obedience (works) are infused, literally part of the definition, of a saving faith and as such a gift from God. If one defines faith as infused with obedience to God’s commands one could say we ARE saved by faith apart from vain works, the temple sacrificial system and modern vain deeds designed to earn our way to heaven.
 
Brothers and Sisters,
The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace given to us freely by Faith from God. The works are what result from our joy in reciving that salvation which we he freely gives us. Upon reciving salvation, at Baptism I might add (John 3:4-6), then we are expected to begin to follow the commandments of God, most namely the commandment of Love! Love one another as I have loved you.

Love, now that is what we are called to do greatly. But how does one love? Jesus says to lay down ones life for his friends is love. But how can we do that? Well, it is the works that come from the joy of the knowing that we have been given salvation. Works my friends are not a point sheet nor do they save you or get you anywhere. Works are simply the result of your salvation. We give of our talents and gifts freely to others who are in need of our help. This is why St. James talks about the importance of works. Consider this for some thought, if a man says I have been saved and is bitter then what good has come from his salvation? But if a man says I have been saved and does the good works of charity and love then truly he accepts his salvation.

God Bless, keep thinking, Keep Praying!
-RCSeminarian
 
Speaking as a Protestant minister, let me say that any theology that attempts to separate faith and works is simply false. Belief and repentance are simply two sides of the same coin. If we really believe, we will WANT to change our behavior to conform to the Gospel. If we really believe, we will be given the POWER to live a life of love. Therefore, faith and behavior (or works if you will) or inseparable. I think we all can agree on the preceding.

Considering the above, often times (if not always) this argument is totally artificial and pure theoretical. Those who would say that one must do works in their own power in order to be saved are in error. Those who say that one can be saved by Grace and have no good works are also in error. In between these two positions lies the truth. In between these two positions, both Catholic and Evangelical positions are also found.

I would suggest that there is no real, practical difference between sound Catholic and sound Evangelical Theology in this area. Where the rubber meets the road, we agree in regards to how truly saved people will behave, as well as where we get the power to do so. We agree that, “Faith without works is DEAD.”

Personally, I have better things to do than to argue with my Catholic brothers and sisters over something that has no practical theological application.

Just my $.02 worth…

Grace and Peace,

Vince
 
Many excellent comments, especially James’ list of 5.

A few years ago, my young adult daughter asked me if I truly believed in God. She knew I was always imploring her and her sister to live their Catholic faith as well as they could. But she wondered if it was just a front. She wanted to know what I REALLY believed. Without thinking I relied, "To the very marrow of my bones.

If God does not exist, why do we? What is our purpose? We cannot simply be an accident in the huge universe. The old Baltimore Catchecism taught that God made us to know Him, to love Him, to serve Him, and to be happy with Him in heaven forever. This has been my guiding principle of life since I was seven.

It is common sense to me that I must act on my belief. The scriptures say that, but it is still common sense.

Getting into Heaven: That decision is totally God’s, not mine. I cannot earn my way in. I trust in God’s Mercy and His Salvation through His living Son, Jesus Christ. Meanwhile I do my best to live my faith by doing my best for the love of God.

Again, I have to act on that Trust. “Have to” in the spirit of “want to.” Why buy a ticket to a Boston Red Sox game and then take a nap during all nine innings? Why say I believe in God and then ignore or hap hazzardly live and act according to His expectations for us?

Faith and Good Works are united like both sides of a coin.
 
PastorVW said:
Speaking as a Protestant minister, let me say that any theology that attempts to separate faith and works is simply false. Belief and repentance are simply two sides of the same coin. If we really believe, we will WANT to change our behavior to conform to the Gospel. If we really believe, we will be given the POWER to live a life of love. Therefore, faith and behavior (or works if you will) or inseparable. I think we all can agree on the preceding.

Considering the above, often times (if not always) this argument is totally artificial and pure theoretical. Those who would say that one must do works in their own power in order to be saved are in error. Those who say that one can be saved by Grace and have no good works are also in error. In between these two positions lies the truth. In between these two positions, both Catholic and Evangelical positions are also found.

I would suggest that there is no real, practical difference between sound Catholic and sound Evangelical Theology in this area. Where the rubber meets the road, we agree in regards to how truly saved people will behave, as well as where we get the power to do so. We agree that, “Faith without works is DEAD.”

Personally, I have better things to do than to argue with my Catholic brothers and sisters over something that has no practical theological application.

Just my $.02 worth…

Grace and Peace,

Vince
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Thank you PastorVW.
Especially for the reference to these arguments being mostly “theoretical”. They are indeed. We need to consentrate more on “where the rubber meets the road” as you say.

Peace
James
 
GratefulFred said:
…
It is common sense to me that I must act on my belief. The scriptures say that, but it is still common sense…

Faith and Good Works are united like both sides of a coin.
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People do not see what we believe. They see how we act. They observe our behavior which is a direct reflection of what we believe, of what we consider important.

Pastor VW–“Strife is a luxury Christians cannot afford.” Does not scripture warn against quibbling? The unity for which Christ prayed will only come about when we begin to focus on what we share in common rather than that which divides us.
I love it when my Presbyterian son-in-law quotes the pope during his sermons.
 
Thank-you PastorVW, my thoughts exactly. I have always wondered why this was the subject of so much debate!

God Bless,
TeresaAnn
 
=fermat
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I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.
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From the Catholic stand point, love is a work. Forgiveness is a work. This is the point where the protestant tries to interpret James 2:24 and Romans showing that faith alone is needed and the faith James is talking about is a similar, but different kind of faith than Romans.
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From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action. You have to do them, but you don’t need to. But protestants clearly don’t really think that, otherwise it wouldn’t be faith alone. Help me understand the subtlety of this difference.
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Catholics too understand that good works are to be done, but “by themselves” give no assurance of getting to heaven. Said simply, Catholics do not teach or believe that any can "but their way to heaven."

The difference on opinion can be demonistrated quite well in three sequencial verses from Eph. Chapter 2: verses 8 and 9 and then read verse 10.

**8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. **

***So which is it are works really not necessary? Or as verse 10 states they are very necessary? There are many bibles verse one can quote againt works, for example:

Rom. 3:20 “For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

Gal. 2: 16 “yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.” *

The problems lies in the fact that the bible uses the term “works” with two vastly different meanings. When Paul speaks about “works” not leading to justification, he is speaking specifically of works of obedience to the OT Jewish law, orginally only the Ten Commandments but expanded to over 300 additional rules and regulations. Jesus came to perfect these laws, not abolish them.

When the bible speaks of the need for “works” it is always in relation to the absolute necessity for Charity, “Love your neighbor as your self” [the “new Commandment”
Rom. 13: 9]

And “for works” Heb. 6: 9-10 “Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do”

Phil. 2: 12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

James 2: 14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder.Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

Faith is a requirement of salvation; as summes up in the first,second and third Commandements. Rom. 1:17: "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”

But in addition we must be Baptized: John 3:5

Keep the Commandments: Mt. 19:16

Not die in Mortal Sin: 1 Jn. 5:16-17 and John 20:21-22

We must follow all that The Church and the Pope Teach on matters of Faith and Morals:
Mt. 16:18-19 ; Mt. 18:18

Love and prayers,**
 
fermat said:
Here is my question:

I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.
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By “protestant” do you mean “Evangelical”?

Respectfully,
Mick
👍
 
The Commandments are broken into 2 sections: 1 thru 3 refer to Love of God, 4 thru 10 refer to Love of Man. When asked which of the Commandments was the greatest, Christ’s replied with words to the affect , “…to love God with your whole heart, mind, spirit…and to love your neighbor as yourself”. If you read much, say like Thomas Merton, you hear the term ‘beatitude’ used. The term was somewhat confusing to me at first until I started thinking about “The Beatitudes” from the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are the Peacemakers. Blessed are the Poor, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice, etc. As we pass thru this portion of our lives, we are tasked to make decisions that can either avail us to God’s Unmerited Grace, or place us under God’s warranted Wrath. We are asked to feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned, cloth the naked, etc. These are some of corporal works of mercy. They are intended to be acts of Unconditional Love: because you want to, because you bound by faith, because you love God. So, Faith in The Word of God [Jesus Christ] is essential to salvation (1 thru 3) but the work involved in our human acts of Love (4 thru 10) are equally also essential. You can’t say you truely love God [the Creator] without truely loving His creatures [the created]. You were made by certtain specifications: the image and likeness of God. It’s intended to be a life’s work. LIFE starts today!
 
DebChris said:
I love it when my Presbyterian son-in-law quotes the pope during his sermons.
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The current Pope is a great and wonderful servant of God. I have read some works - brilliant and insightful. Many of us find much to agree with.
 
PastorVW said:
The current Pope is a great and wonderful servant of God. I have read some works - brilliant and insightful. Many of us find much to agree with.
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Happy to hear that his work is heard by all kinds of Christians. Have you read Jesus of Nazareth? I’m still slowly getting through it but it’s quite interesting.

Also glad to know your point of view. As I learn about the other faiths it seems more and more that we agree on so much that sometimes it seems like some people are looking for something to disagree on or they just misunderstood a teaching.
 
PastorVW said:
The current Pope is a great and wonderful servant of God. I have read some works - brilliant and insightful. Many of us find much to agree with.
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Actually it was Pope John XXIII that I heard him quote. It was his copy of Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship that I read. I gave him a copy of the documents from Vatican II. One of the books that I received when my brother died is The Christian Almanac which I gave to my son-in-law last week (only because I am headed overseas).
 
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