Faith vs. Works

[SSTeacher]

In my opinion the whole Faith/Works argument is a phony, man-made argument. It’s an argument about words. We are saved by The Blood of Jesus Christ.

Words convey ideas and ideas have consequences.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[ejb21]

And we are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[SSTeacher]

And we are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.

Peace,
Mick

 

[ejb21]

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.

Peace,
Mick

Thanks for the welcome. I apologize if I seem combative. I’ve just spent the better part of 2 years posting at another site where I was the lone catholic.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5399381:

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.

Peace,
Mick

Thanks for the welcome. I apologize if I seem combative. I’ve just spent the better part of 2 years posting at another site where I was the lone catholic.

I understand. Your apology is most gracious and I should like to accept it wholeheartedly and without qualification. I’m sure you’ll like this site. There are some really smart people who post here. I’ll look out for your posts. May God bless you always.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[ejb21]

I understand. Your apology is most gracious and I should like to accept it wholeheartedly and without qualification. I’m sure you’ll like this site. There are some really smart people who post here. I’ll look out for your posts. May God bless you always.

Sincerely,
Mick

To Mick

I think you are right about this site. I hope you have a great holiday. God Bless.

Ed

 

[guanophore]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

I have enjoyed reading your posts, Pastor. Yes, there is assurance to those who remain in a state of grace, and this is very possible to do.

But the mindset of some of our separated brethren of “once saved, always saved” is considered the “sin of presumption” because there are many of the thoughts of man that are hidden. Only God knows truly what is in our hearts.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

The Apostles’ taught that, though we should search our consience daily, there are still parts of ourselves we do not know, so we leave the final judgement to God.

They taught that the mature attitude is to act in faith, hope, and love:

Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Only God can know and judge the state of the heart of the man hit by the bus.

 

[DebChris]

A lot of misunderstood Paul goes into this topic. If you would like to review the basics on this, I’ve been posting chapter summaries of Reading Paul, a wonderful little book by Michael J Gorman.

The chapter concerning this is located here but read the others from time to time as well:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/25/understanding-paul-in-an-age-of-cheap-justification/

“Today, once again, many Christians and churches face the temptations of a cultural captivity within a secular state; spirituality without discipleship or ethics, and knee-jerk nationalism. These are all forms of cheap grace, or cheap justification — a relationship with God in which God is believed to be a kind of cosmic agent of “salvation” (happiness, blessing, security prosperity; etc.) who requires little or nothing of the allegedly “saved” or “blessed.” Cheap justification is justification without transformation, without conversion, without justice. Once again, someone needs to speak, not merely of grace, but of costly grace; not merely of justification by faith, but of costly justification by faith. That someone is Paul.”

A fine meditation on Justification.

And if you would like Fr. Romano Guardini’s take on justice. Read how he interprets these two parables:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/02/when-jesus-spoke-of-justice/

Regards,

DJ

This is exactly what Dietrich Boenhoeffer, a Lutheran who died under Hitler, wrote in His book Cost of Discipleship. The Sacrifice of the Cross requires a response. We are called to love one another as Christ loved us, to lay down our life for our brother/sister .

And we are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

We were saved by the The Blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. We continue to be saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ through the Sacrament of the Eucharist each and every time the Mass is celebrated anywhere in the world until the end of time.

 

[GratefulFred]

Indeed, we are saved by the Blood of Christ.

But not all.

We should remember Christ’s own words at the Last Supper:

"This is the cup of My Blood. The Blood of a new and everlasting covenant. It shall be shed for you and for all so that sins MAY be forgiven."

This along with Christ empowering the Apostles after His Resurrection:

"Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

I intentionally accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior when I accepted the Sacrament of Confirmation. But we are all aware of the times we have failed to live the life Christ would have us live if we have chosen to follow Him. Do we try to justify our failures as being OK? At least for us? OR, do we admit we fail at times and seek forgiveness in the way that Christ would have us receive His Forgiveness? If we chose not to seek forgiveness in the way Christ expects, we surely run a huge risk of not getting the forgiveness He offers.

This is a huge point. If we understand Christ correctly on this point, we have to be Catholic. If we fail to honestly understand it, well that is up to Christ to sort out. All of us need to continually pray for Wisdom and more of it. But if we chose to ignore this point and chose to look for ways to NOT understand it, then have we not rejected Christ’s Salvation?

As others have said, only Christ knows what is in our Hearts, so none can judge the other. In Confession, a priest can only do so much to determine if one is truly sorry for his or her sins. The priest usually gives the penitent the benefit of the doubt.

But we still must consider what is really meant by the quotes above. (Hopefully I quoted correctly, as I am writting from my heart.)

Is it fair to say that “sin” is our failure to do the good works our Faith requires?

 

[holy_moly]

Thanks for the welcome. I apologize if I seem combative. I’ve just spent the better part of 2 years posting at another site where I was the lone catholic.

Sounds fun! What site would that be?

 

[flewen]

I fully agree that we are saved by the blood of Christ. But the salvation that Christ does not end there. I believe that through the grace of Christ, we are saved through our acceptance and faith in Him but it doesn’t mean that we must remain stagnant on it, we also must have obedience which maintaince the grace we recieved.

 

[DebChris]

Indeed, we are saved by the Blood of Christ.

But not all.

We should remember Christ’s own words at the Last Supper:

"This is the cup of My Blood. The Blood of a new and everlasting covenant. It shall be shed for you and for all so that sins MAY be forgiven."

This along with Christ empowering the Apostles after His Resurrection:

"Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

I intentionally accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior when I accepted the Sacrament of Confirmation. But we are all aware of the times we have failed to live the life Christ would have us live if we have chosen to follow Him. Do we try to justify our failures as being OK? At least for us? OR, do we admit we fail at times and seek forgiveness in the way that Christ would have us receive His Forgiveness? If we chose not to seek forgiveness in the way Christ expects, we surely run a huge risk of not getting the forgiveness He offers.

This is a huge point. If we understand Christ correctly on this point, we have to be Catholic. If we fail to honestly understand it, well that is up to Christ to sort out. All of us need to continually pray for Wisdom and more of it. But if we chose to ignore this point and chose to look for ways to NOT understand it, then have we not rejected Christ’s Salvation?

As others have said, only Christ knows what is in our Hearts, so none can judge the other. In Confession, a priest can only do so much to determine if one is truly sorry for his or her sins. The priest usually gives the penitent the benefit of the doubt.

But we still must consider what is really meant by the quotes above. (Hopefully I quoted correctly, as I am writting from my heart.)

Is it fair to say that “sin” is our failure to do the good works our Faith requires?

When God, in the beginning, created man, He made him subject to his own free choice.
If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will;
There is set before you fire and water, to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. (Sirach 15:14-17).
It remains within our power to reject the salvation that we have been given. The question then becomes, “Why would I?”
.
As Jesus himself stated, “I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.” We are strengthened by the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments to do the work to which we have been called. We are branches on the vine that is Jesus Christ.

 

[DebChris]

I fully agree that we are saved by the blood of Christ. But the salvation that Christ does not end there. I believe that through the grace of Christ, we are saved through our acceptance and faith in Him but it doesn’t mean that we must remain stagnant on it, we also must have obedience which maintaince the grace we recieved.

When water in a barrel becomes stagnant, it gets wigglers. We don’t want wigglers in our water.
We don’t want to become complacent when it comes to living our faith.
Poster from a retreat center where I used to spend time. “I love you just the way you are, but too much to let you stay that way.” We are called to grow in love and faith. Can we do that without taking positive action (work)?

 

[holy_moly]

This is interesting that you put this in this way. It fits beautifully with the way St Catherine of Sienna described it.

In an exctecy (sp) God described death and judgemnt like this (paraphrased).

Each person chooses their own judgement based on how they believed and lived.
Those perfected in God’s Love reach out to that Love at the moment of death and are drawn into heaven
Those who believe but are not yet perfected in God’s Love reach out to God’s Mercy and are drawn into “purgatory” for purification.
Those who have rejected God’s and God’s Love, those who Live in the world and in selfish evil instead of in God, they reach out for that selfish Love embrace the demons.

Each reaches out and embrases that which the truly believe.

There is a lot more to it, but that is the gist.

Peace
James

Not to mention, Sister Faustina… “For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us & on the whole world!”

Shalom,
Jim

 

[ejb21]

Sounds fun! What site would that be?

It really wasn’t fun especially being the lone catholic. Most of the posters there are staunch Calvinist’s. I was interested in learning our differences, especially regarding Romans. While I did become friends with the owner of the blog most of the posters there are anti-catholic.

 

[ejb21]

When water in a barrel becomes stagnant, it gets wigglers. We don’t want wigglers in our water.
We don’t want to become complacent when it comes to living our faith.
Poster from a retreat center where I used to spend time. “I love you just the way you are, but too much to let you stay that way.” We are called to grow in love and faith. Can we do that without taking positive action (work)?

I agree 100% that we are called to continue to grow and mature in love and faith.

 

[guanophore]

I am NOT trying to start a thread where the dicussion breaks down into the fractured debate described above. If you can provide me an example without using Scripture, that would be great. I only say no Scripture because quoting Romans or James doesn’t help me understand what you understand. Analogies would be super.

I’ll try to post back with clarifying questions.

One of the best that I have heard (here on CAF) is that of a car engine and gasoline. God is the source of both the faith, and the works, but just as the body without the spirit is inanimate (engine without gasoline), so is faith without works. Works are the gasoline that makes the engine run. The engine cannot get where it needs to go without the fuel. I known this analagy falls short in some ways, but it illustrates that both parts are necessary to make the motor function the way it was created.

 

[johnromanoski]

For the past fifteen years I have done good works at a nearby nursing home,
working in the activity department five or six days and on Sunday helping
there with the distribution of communion there out of love for God. Each
resident is Christ to me. When there is the anointing of a person needed
I inform my pastor, as it happened recently. During the week I attend Mass
often. I can go on and on and when I was turned down for solemn vows years
I decided to make each day an act of perfect love. There are five of us that do
volunteer work at the nursing home.
God bless. John Romanoski

 

[twb1621]

Thanks for the welcome. I apologize if I seem combative. I’ve just spent the better part of 2 years posting at another site where I was the lone catholic.

Your not alone here my Brother.

Peace

 

[holy_moly]

It really wasn’t fun especially being the lone catholic. Most of the posters there are staunch Calvinist’s. I was interested in learning our differences, especially regarding Romans. While I did become friends with the owner of the blog most of the posters there are anti-catholic.

Sounds like the blogs of my home town newspaper; there’s some seriouse anti-Catholocism out there!