Faith vs. Works

[ejb21]

Your not alone here my Brother.

Peace

Thank you very much, my Friend. I’ve only been around here a few days and it’s exciting to hear what other Catholics have to say. Very educational, at least for me. But I’m also interested in what Protestants have to say to better understand our differences.

 

[ejb21]

Sounds like the blogs of my home town newspaper; there’s some seriouse anti-Catholocism out there!

I’m telling you, it was brutal at times.

 

[fhansen]

Here is my question:

I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.

From the Catholic stand point, love is a work. Forgiveness is a work. This is the point where the protestant tries to interpret James 2:24 and Romans showing that faith alone is needed and the faith James is talking about is a similar, but different kind of faith than Romans.

From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action. You have to do them, but you don’t need to. But protestants clearly don’t really think that, otherwise it wouldn’t be faith alone. Help me understand the subtlety of this difference.

I am NOT trying to start a thread where the dicussion breaks down into the fractured debate described above. If you can provide me an example without using Scripture, that would be great. I only say no Scripture because quoting Romans or James doesn’t help me understand what you understand. Analogies would be super.

I’ll try to post back with clarifying questions.

We’re saved by Gods’ grace which is probably another way of saying we’re saved by His love. He wants us to freely choose that love. Sin and love (sin and God) are mutually exclusive. Therefore, as scripture says, no sinners can enter heaven: no believers are capable of seeing God until they’re free from sin/sanctified/transformed/unattached to things other than Him/molded to perfection in love, with our cooperation.

 

[holy_moly]

I’m telling you, it was brutal at times.

Trust me, I feel your pain… sort of feels like drowning & not having anyone care enough to throw a lifeline. I like a challenging discussion, but it’s always nice having someone on the same ‘team’!

 

[holy_moly]

Here is my question:

I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.

From the Catholic stand point, love is a work. Forgiveness is a work. This is the point where the protestant tries to interpret James 2:24 and Romans showing that faith alone is needed and the faith James is talking about is a similar, but different kind of faith than Romans.

From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action. You have to do them, but you don’t need to. But protestants clearly don’t really think that, otherwise it wouldn’t be faith alone. Help me understand the subtlety of this difference.

I am NOT trying to start a thread where the dicussion breaks down into the fractured debate described above. If you can provide me an example without using Scripture, that would be great. I only say no Scripture because quoting Romans or James doesn’t help me understand what you understand. Analogies would be super.

I’ll try to post back with clarifying questions.

From St Jean Vianney: “All the good works in the world are not equal to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because they are the works of men; but the Mass is the work of God.” This would be perhaps the biggest difference between any protestant denomination & Catholocism…

In Him,
Jim

 

[SHW]

The only guarantee of our salvation is the presence of the Holy Spirit living in our souls at our deaths. (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22)

Jesus will only “know” those persons on Judgment Day who have the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in their souls at that time. This is how He recognizes His “own.” He abides in us and we abide in Him and this is how He “knows” us. (cf. John 15:5-6, Matthew 7:20-23) If God is not dwelling in us when we die, then Jesus will state, “I never knew you.”

If we sin mortal sins (sins that cause the death of the soul) after we are justified, then the Holy Spirit moves out and we are no longer justified. (cf. 1 John 5:16-17) If we remain in our sins until death, then we are destroyed. (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

 

[twb1621]

Thank you very much, my Friend. I’ve only been around here a few days and it’s exciting to hear what other Catholics have to say. Very educational, at least for me. But I’m also interested in what Protestants have to say to better understand our differences.

You will certainly learn a great deal in that regard here… God bless you.

 

[altabz]

Thank-you PastorVW, my thoughts exactly. I have always wondered why this was the subject of so much debate!

God Bless,
TeresaAnn

Actually the problem is on where the work is standing of in the process of salvation. Here’s the argument we Catholics say we need works or “good deeds” as a testament to our faith before we can get grace. While protestants view (not all) that we need to believe in Christ and accept Him as our personal saviour as simple we are all saved. I’m referring to the born again fundamentalist to be exact.
Catholics formula: faith+works=salvation
non cath formula: faith+accept Chirst as personal saviour=salvation “good deeds as testament”

 

[DebChris]

Actually the problem is on where the work is standing of in the process of salvation. Here’s the argument we Catholics say we need works or “good deeds” as a testament to our faith before we can get grace. While protestants view (not all) that we need to believe in Christ and accept Him as our personal saviour as simple we are all saved. I’m referring to the born again fundamentalist to be exact.
Catholics formula: faith+works=salvation
non cath formula: faith+accept Chirst as personal saviour=salvation “good deeds as testament”

We cannot earn salvation. We do not earn grace through works. Salvation is a free gift from God through His dying for each of us on the cross. As St. James says, faith without works is dead. Works are an expression of our faith. We do good works because we believe. The works that we perform reflect a faith that is otherwise hidden.
Works are our faith response. The person who enters the kingdom of heaven is the one who does the will of the Father, not simply the person who cries “Lord, Lord.”
Even a person who through no faith of his own has never heard of Jesus Christ may still enter heaven. His Baptism of Desire is seen in his life and works.

 

[Ignatius]

From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action.

If something is needed, then it is necessary, the two are inseparable.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We are gracefully saved by that faith which CONTINUES THROUGH God willed works unto death.

Not faith versus works.

Not faith and works.

But faith continuing through God willed works unto death.

 

[holy_moly]

We cannot earn salvation. We do not earn grace through works. Salvation is a free gift from God through His dying for each of us on the cross. As St. James says, faith without works is dead. Works are an expression of our faith. We do good works because we believe. The works that we perform reflect a faith that is otherwise hidden.
Works are our faith response. The person who enters the kingdom of heaven is the one who does the will of the Father, not simply the person who cries “Lord, Lord.”
Even a person who through no faith of his own has never heard of Jesus Christ may still enter heaven. His Baptism of Desire is seen in his life and works.

Best summation yet :clapping:

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The free gift of faith will never save someone who subsequently refuses to obey God and do His God willed works and dies unrepentent in that state.

The works themselves will not save but the interruption of faith by refusal to do God willed works will damn someone to Hell if they die in that state.

Faith in its totality is a continuing thing.

Continuance = Heaven.

Interruption followed by death = Hell

 

[ejb21]

We are gracefully saved by that faith which CONTINUES THROUGH God willed works unto death.

Not faith versus works.

Not faith and works.

But faith continuing through God willed works unto death.

Good post, my friend. Or as Paul says in Galatians, Faith working through Love.

 

[SHW]

Good post, my friend. Or as Paul says in Galatians, Faith working through Love.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

From St Jean Vianney: “All the good works in the world are not equal to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because they are the works of men; but the Mass is the work of God.” This would be perhaps the biggest difference between any protestant denomination & Catholocism…

In Him,
Jim

I certainly agree with what the Cure of Ars says here. And just to shed a bit of light on the Lutheran teaching on the relationship between faith & works, what follows is what the Confessio Augustana says on the matter. The CA is the basic confession of Lutheran doctrine. (The word “they” in the first sentence in this passage refers, by the way, to the dioceses and territories which adopted this Confession.)

****Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone. ****

 

[SHW]

I certainly agree with what the Cure of Ars says here. And just to shed a bit of light on the Lutheran teaching on the relationship between faith & works, what follows is what the Confessio Augustana says on the matter. The CA is the basic confession of Lutheran doctrine. (The word “they” in the first sentence in this passage refers, by the way, to the dioceses and territories which adopted this Confession.)

****Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone. ****

It is true that we receive remission of sins by Christ’s free gift of grace alone through faith in Him when we are baptized. However, we do not inherit eternal life unless we produce good fruits after baptism. (Unless of course, we die immediately after baptism. Then good works are not expected of us.)

We do not inherit eternal life by faith alone.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. NIV

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV

Luke 17:10
So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

It is our duty to do good works. If we do not do these good works, then we are not doing our duty and so we will not inherit eternal life when we die.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should (must) walk in them.

This is a command; it is not a suggestion.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service (duty).

We are judged by our works/fruits/deeds on Judgment Day. We are not judged by our faith. Our “works” prove what type of faith we actually have. “Good works” show a “saving” faith. “Evil works” or “no works” show “no” faith. Luke 13:23-28, Revelation 3:15-19

Ezekiel 33:13-18
"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. (lose eternal life)

14"But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,

15if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

16"None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

17"Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right.

18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. (lose eternal life)

Both faith and good works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

Dear SHW:

Of course good works are necessary, and of course they are commanded by God. You just saw me quote the Lutheran Confessions to that very effect. Mutual understanding should be the goal, not talking past each other. We not only have the words of the Gospels and Epistles, but indeed we have the Decalogue itself, which we call “Commandments.” If you look at Luther’s two catechisms, you will find the Ten Commandments as a prominent part. In fact, they come first. Those who do not believe that good works are necessary and commanded by God are not called Lutherans; they are most properly called antinomian fanatics.
The question we might ask is, what is the value of good works? The antinomian answer, which too often is the strawman, is that they have no value. The Lutheran answer is that they serve our neighbor, and are the manifestation of Christ’s love in the world (Gal 2:20). We simply take issue with any notion that they earn us justification coram Deo.
Latif

It is true that we receive remission of sins by Christ’s free gift of grace alone through faith in Him when we are baptized. However, we do not inherit eternal life unless we produce good fruits after baptism. (Unless of course, we die immediately after baptism. Then good works are not expected of us.)

We do not inherit eternal life by faith alone.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. NIV

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV

Luke 17:10
So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

It is our duty to do good works. If we do not do these good works, then we are not doing our duty and so we will not inherit eternal life when we die.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should (must) walk in them.

This is a command; it is not a suggestion.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service (duty).

We are judged by our works/fruits/deeds on Judgment Day. We are not judged by our faith. Our “works” prove what type of faith we actually have. “Good works” show a “saving” faith. “Evil works” or “no works” show “no” faith. Luke 13:23-28, Revelation 3:15-19

Ezekiel 33:13-18
"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. (lose eternal life)

14"But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,

15if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

16"None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

17"Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right.

18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. (lose eternal life)

Both faith and good works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI

Paul and Faith

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

important texts…

 

[JRKH]

Dear SHW:

Of course good works are necessary, and of course they are commanded by God. You just saw me quote the Lutheran Confessions to that very effect. Mutual understanding should be the goal, not talking past each other. We not only have the words of the Gospels and Epistles, but indeed we have the Decalogue itself, which we call “Commandments.” If you look at Luther’s two catechisms, you will find the Ten Commandments as a prominent part. In fact, they come first. Those who do not believe that good works are necessary and commanded by God are not called Lutherans; they are most properly called antinomian fanatics.
The question we might ask is, what is the value of good works? The antinomian answer, which too often is the strawman, is that they have no value. The Lutheran answer is that they serve our neighbor, and are the manifestation of Christ’s love in the world (Gal 2:20). We simply take issue with any notion that they earn us justification coram Deo.
Latif

Your litte exchange with SHW speaks to something I have noticed between Catholics and non-catholics, especially with Lutherens. It seems that we often are talking about and saying virtually the same things but with slightly different terms or with a variation in emphasis, rather than a real difference in belief. And what is bad is when we find “conflict” in these variations. I’m not accusing you ro SHW of finding such conflicts, rather just pointing out my observation.

Faith and works are like looking at the sky and the clouds and talking about which is more important. The sky is necessary in order to have clouds, but the coulds are necessary to produce rain, and feed our fertile lands. A sky without clouds produces “death valley”.
The Sky is like our belief, our faith. Clouds represent works. Both are necessary to have life.

Peace
James