Faith vs. Works

[SHW]

Of course good works are necessary, and of course they are commanded by God…

… We simply take issue with any notion that they earn us justification …

No one can “earn” eternal life by himself because salvation is dependent upon Christ’s “sanctifying”/reconciling grace. No sanctifying grace, then no salvation possible. Only Christ could and did atone for Original Sin. He reconciled us to God and made it possible for us to inherit eternal life. We receive this saving/reconciling grace when we are baptized. However, we must maintain/abide in/remain in this grace until death in order to inherit eternal life.

We must be found faithful (worthy) at the time of death in order to inherit eternal life. We must be approved in order to inherit eternal life. And, in order to be approved (be found worthy/faithful) to enter eternal life, we must obey God’s commandments and fulfill His Will for our lives.

Mat 3:8
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

1 Cor 4:2
Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. Lk 12:42-43

Rev 3:4
You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are** worthy**.

These persons did not defile their baptismal garments with mortal sin, and so they are judged worthy to inherit eternal life.

Jas 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

The Lord only approves those persons who love Him to receive the crown of eternal life.

How does a person love Christ? Jesus tells us that in order to love Him, we have to obey His commandments. If we do not obey His commandments, then we do not love Him.

Jn 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps (obeys) them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

If a person does not obey/keep His commandments, then they are lying when they say that they love/know Him.

1 Jn 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What happens to all liars (the persons who claim to know and love God, but who do not keep/obey His commandments)?

Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Martin Luther exaggerated to his friend in a letter called Let Your Sins be Strong:

1. … God does not save those who are only
   imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
   your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
   victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
   are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
   however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
   heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
   through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
   sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
   kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
   such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
   sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

Luther is incorrect. It takes only one sin of adultery to separate us from God.

KJV Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

RSV Gal 5:21
I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

"To practice" means "to do."

Luther also added the word “alone” to Rom 3:28, but his followers removed it later.

In this, as in all other matters of doctrine, Luther would accept no authority except his own. In his letter on translating, he told his followers how to respond to Catholics who criticized him for adding the word “alone.”
“Tell them,” he said, “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and he says that a papist and a donkey are the same thing.”

However, Rom 3:28 actually refers to the works/deeds of the Law (of Moses and also Torah). It says nothing in this verse about good works/righteous works at all!

Both faith and good works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

Jas 2:17 declares that “faith without works is dead.”

Dead faith cannot save.

Jas 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only (alone).

However, Luther called the Book of James “an epistle of straw.”

 

[SHW]

Pope Benedict XVI

Paul and Faith

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

important texts…

Thank you.

 

[SHW]

Your litte exchange with SHW speaks to something I have noticed between Catholics and non-catholics, especially with Lutherens. It seems that we often are talking about and saying virtually the same things but with slightly different terms or with a variation in emphasis, rather than a real difference in belief. And what is bad is when we find “conflict” in these variations. I’m not accusing you ro SHW of finding such conflicts, rather just pointing out my observation.

Faith and works are like looking at the sky and the clouds and talking about which is more important. The sky is necessary in order to have clouds, but the coulds are necessary to produce rain, and feed our fertile lands. A sky without clouds produces “death valley”.
The Sky is like our belief, our faith. Clouds represent works. Both are necessary to have life.

Peace
James

There is a difference between Catholic and Lutheran belief on “faith and the necessity of works” for final justification. Final justification (dying in sanctifying grace) gives us the right to eternal life.

NKJV Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

RSV Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 3:4
You have a **few **names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Only those few persons who do not defile their baptismal garments with mortal sin are given the right to the tree of eternal life. Most persons in our world die in mortal sin. They do not repent before death and so they do not die in sanctifying grace.

Only a few people are actually saved. Those persons who are saved are those who endure to the end of their lives in sanctifying grace. In other words, these few saved are the persons who obey His commandments and fulfill His Will for them.
Luke 13:22-28

 

[JRKH]

There is a difference between Catholic and Lutheran belief on “faith and the necessity of works” for final justification. Final justification (dying in sanctifying grace) gives us the right to eternal life.

NKJV Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

RSV Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 3:4
You have a **few **names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Only those few persons who do not defile their baptismal garments with mortal sin are given the right to the tree of eternal life. Most persons in our world die in mortal sin. They do not repent before death and so they do not die in sanctifying grace.

Only a few people are actually saved. Those persons who are saved are those who endure to the end of their lives in sanctifying grace. In other words, these few saved are the persons who obey His commandments and fulfill His Will for them.
Luke 13:22-28

Yes, there are differences, but I have found in my talks with lutherens that the difference(s) are less practical than they are - - how shall I say - - descriptive?? or different in emphasis??
Neither Catholic or Lutheren believes that either faith or works are unnecessary. Each simply uses different ways to describe their necessity.

Peace
James

 

[Deacon_Latif]

Pope Benedict XVI

Paul and Faith

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

important texts…

Dear Bookcat:
Pope Benedict XVI is certainly one of the greatest theologians of the modern age, and one of my favorite living theologians. So I am generally in favor of reading more Ratzinger. Too many of my Catholic friends, for some strange reason, dislike him; they fail to appreciate him, and have fallen for some of the silly caricatures. In the first discourse you cite, I would call attention to the following passage in particular:

“The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love.”

Especially note this sentence from that passage: “For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” Sola fide is one of those theological slogans, by the way, which by now, 500 yrs later, has come to mean too many things. Slogans like that cannot be used in real dialog unless all parties define their terms. That is why the Pope astutely qualifies his argument with the words, “if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” Indeed, this accurately characterizes Luther’s position. This is basically an endorsement of Luther’s understanding of sola fide, at least as employed in his translation of St. Paul. I am not saying that the RC and Lutheran conceptions of justification are reconciled. I am simply saying that the discourse you cite is a good, theologically astute example of treating Luther’s translation fairly and reasonably.

 

[SHW]

Dear Bookcat:
Pope Benedict XVI is certainly one of the greatest theologians of the modern age, and one of my favorite living theologians. So I am generally in favor of reading more Ratzinger. Too many of my Catholic friends, for some strange reason, dislike him; they fail to appreciate him, and have fallen for some of the silly caricatures. In the first discourse you cite, I would call attention to the following passage in particular:

“The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love.”

Especially note this sentence from that passage: “For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” Sola fide is one of those theological slogans, by the way, which by now, 500 yrs later, has come to mean too many things. Slogans like that cannot be used in real dialog unless all parties define their terms. That is why the Pope astutely qualifies his argument with the words, “if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” Indeed, this accurately characterizes Luther’s position. This is basically an endorsement of Luther’s understanding of sola fide, at least as employed in his translation of St. Paul. I am not saying that the RC and Lutheran conceptions of justification are reconciled. I am simply saying that the discourse you cite is a good, theologically astute example of treating Luther’s translation fairly and reasonably.

IF is the qualifier. Pope Benedict XVI has not seen the letter that I quoted or else he would have known that Luther does not meet this qualification. Perhaps most “modern” Lutherans do qualify, however.

According to Luther’s letter called Let Your Sins be Strong, he unequivocally states that even if a person commit adultery a thousand times a day, he still will not be separated from Christ. In other words, Luther states that even if a person commits the mortal sin of adultery, the person still will not lose eternal life. Luther speaks falsely. Every person who commits adultery loses the right to inherit eternal life unless he repents before death. Proverbs 6:32, Jeremiah 23:14, Matthew 19:16-19, Ezekiel 33:12-18

RSV Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like.** I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do** such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

NKJV Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luther:

1. … God does not save those who are only
   imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
   your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
   victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
   are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
   however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
   heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
   through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
   sin of the world. **No sin can separate us from Him, **even if ****we were to
   kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
   such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
   sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

Luther was a false teacher. He truly believed in “faith alone.” His words are very clear in his letter. No good works are necessary at all in order to inherit eternal life according to Luther’s doctrine of “faith alone.” In truth, we must do good works in order to inherit eternal life. We also must not do evil works if we desire to inherit eternal life.

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

IF is the qualifier. Pope Benedict XVI has not seen the letter that I quoted or else he would have known that Luther does not meet this qualification…According to Luther’s letter called Let Your Sins be Strong, he unequivocally states that even if a person commit adultery a thousand times a day, he still will not be separated from Christ. In other words, Luther states that even if a person commits the mortal sin of adultery, the person still will not lose eternal life. Luther speaks falsely. Every person who commits adultery loses the right to inherit eternal life unless he repents before death.

Luther was a false teacher. He truly believed in “faith alone.” His words are very clear in his letter. No good works are necessary at all in order to inherit eternal life according to Luther’s doctrine of “faith alone.” In truth, we must do good works in order to inherit eternal life. We also must not do evil works if we desire to inherit eternal life.

Dearest SHW:

You are quite mistaken in your interpretation of Dr. Luther’s words. I hasten to add that it does not do much for the credibility of your argument when you say that the letter you have in mind is titled “Let your sins be strong.” For some editor of an anthology may have titled the letter, but letter writers do not generally title their letters. So properly speaking, this letter does not have a title. More importantly, you simply fail to appreciate what Luther is saying in this letter. It’s okay, you don’t have to understand Luther’s thought all in one night. However, you ought not throw around quotes out of historical and theological context, quotes you do not understand, from writings you do not understand.

It is also highly offensive to me as a Christian, and as a theologian, and should be offensive to the Catholics in this forum, that you insult the Pope by suggesting that you know Luther better than Pope Benedict XVI knows him. Pope Benedict has been reading Luther, in Latin and German, for decades. I cannot comment at all on your knowledge, since I do not know you, but I’m going to go ahead and say at this point that your knowledge of Luther is somewhat less than Joseph Ratzinger’s, a man with two earned doctorates in theology.

Yes, with all Christian friendliness and respect, I repeat, you fail utterly to appreciate the meaning of Luther’s words in this letter. However, the real point at issue at the moment is this: that letter has nothing to do with the fact that Pope Benedict commented favorably on Luther’s German translation of the Apostle. That favorable comment, as I said, pertained not necessarily to all of Luther’s theology, or every single time he ever wrote or spoke, but to his use of the phrase “faith alone” in his translation. I know full well that he adds the qualifier. I’m the one who emphasized that he wisely and astutely adds a qualifier. Luther’s theology, which one day, I pray, you will appreciate, does indeed fit Benedict’s proviso. My brief comment here indeed fails to explain the letter you think so little of, and it fails to explain Luther’s theology at any great length, for the space allowed here is brief, but I look forward to further discussion on the matter.

 

[SHW]

You are quite mistaken in your interpretation of Dr. Luther’s words. I hasten to add that it does not do much for the credibility of your argument when you say that the letter you have in mind is titled “Let your sins be strong.” For some editor of an anthology may have titled the letter, but letter writers do not generally title their letters. So properly speaking, this letter does not have a title. More importantly, you simply fail to appreciate what Luther is saying in this letter. It’s okay, you don’t have to understand Luther’s thought all in one night. However, you ought not throw around quotes out of historical and theological context, quotes you do not understand, from writings you do not understand.

This was a private letter which detailed his innermost thoughts on the subject of faith alone and other subjects as well. I merely called it by this title because some people are familiar with this title and so they will know to which letter of Luther’s that I am referring.

It is also highly offensive to me as a Christian, and as a theologian, and should be offensive to the Catholics in this forum, that you insult the Pope by suggesting that you know Luther better than Pope Benedict XVI knows him. Pope Benedict has been reading Luther, in Latin and German, for decades. I cannot comment at all on your knowledge, since I do not know you, but I’m going to go ahead and say at this point that your knowledge of Luther is somewhat less than Joseph Ratzinger’s, a man with two earned doctorates in theology.

It was not my intention to insult the Pope. Perhaps I should have said: most likely.

If you noticed, the Pope took care to qualify every single thing that he said about Luther and this is most likely because he was not sure what Luther actually personally believed. If he had known exactly what Luther believed, then he would not have had to qualify every single thing that he took great care to qualify when he spoke about Luther’s beliefs.

I apologize for offending you. I do not claim to “know” every article/paper the Pope reads. This was Pope Benedict’s personal study of Paul’s letters and he mentioned Luther and the Reformation in this (Benedict’s) study of Paul’s letters.

This is what I have found:

“On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes?”

The Reformation is not mentioned again until:

“At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis.”

My understanding is that Pope Benedict was quoting Luther’s German Bible translation of Romans 3:28 in his (Benedict’s) own study of St. Paul’s letters.

Yes, with all Christian friendliness and respect, I repeat, you fail utterly to appreciate the meaning of Luther’s words in this letter. However, the real point at issue at the moment is this: that letter has nothing to do with the fact that Pope Benedict commented favorably on Luther’s German translation of the Apostle. That favorable comment, as I said, pertained not necessarily to all of Luther’s theology, or every single time he ever wrote or spoke, but to his use of the phrase “faith alone” in his translation. I know full well that he adds the qualifier. I’m the one who emphasized that he wisely and astutely adds a qualifier. Luther’s theology, which one day, I pray, you will appreciate, does indeed fit Benedict’s proviso. My brief comment here indeed fails to explain the letter you think so little of, and it fails to explain Luther’s theology at any great length, for the space allowed here is brief, but I look forward to further discussion on the matter.

Since Luther told his friend “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day,” then it seems clear to me that Luther did not personally believe that we had to obey God’s commandments in order to inherit eternal life. I realize that he was exaggerating the number of times adultery could be committed in order to make his point, but his point still is: Mortal sin does not separate us from God because we are saved by faith alone.

Scripture does not agree with that particular statement of Luther that he wrote to his friend:

Heb 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

1 Cor 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

This is my point and also the Catholic Church’s belief:

If I commit even one mortal sin (sin willfully, defile my temple/soul with mortal sin) and I do not repent before death, then I will not inherit eternal life. 2 Thes 1:8

 

[Deacon_Latif]

This was a private letter which detailed his innermost thoughts on the subject of faith alone and other subjects as well. I merely called it by this title because some people are familiar with this title and so they will know to which letter of Luther’s that I am referring.

It was not my intention to insult the Pope. Perhaps I should have said: most likely.

If you noticed, the Pope took care to qualify every single thing that he said about Luther and this is most likely because he was not sure what Luther actually personally believed. If he had known exactly what Luther believed, then he would not have had to qualify every single thing that he took great care to qualify when he spoke about Luther’s beliefs.

I apologize for offending you. I do not claim to “know” every article/paper the Pope reads. This was Pope Benedict’s personal study of Paul’s letters and he mentioned Luther and the Reformation in this (Benedict’s) study of Paul’s letters.

My understanding is that Pope Benedict was quoting Luther’s German Bible translation of Romans 3:28 in his (Benedict’s) own study of St. Paul’s letters.

Since Luther told his friend “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day,” then it seems clear to me that Luther did not personally believe that we had to obey God’s commandments in order to inherit eternal life. I realize that he was exaggerating the number of times adultery could be committed in order to make his point, but his point still is: Mortal sin does not separate us from God because we are saved by faith alone.

Scripture does not agree with that particular statement of Luther that he wrote to his friend:

Heb 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

1 Cor 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

This is my point and also the Catholic Church’s belief:

If I commit even one mortal sin (sin willfully, defile my temple/soul with mortal sin) and I do not repent before death, then I will not inherit eternal life. 2 Thes 1:8

People will know what letter you are speaking of if you simply quote it. That’s all that is required.

Adding “most likely” is still an insult. It is arrogant. One thing evidently that both Pope Benedict and I have in common is that we know Luther better than you do, unless you are being disingenuous in this conversation. One thing is utterly clear: you are completely mischaracterizing Luther’s theology. You are throwing Bible verses around, as though Luther was unaware that there was such a thing as the letters of Paul, or that he somehow forgot about those parts. You are implying that Luther’s doctrine is one of libertinism and virtual antinomianism, which begs the question as to whether you have read much of Luther at all.

Benedict is clearly referring to Luther’s German Bible translation. I just pointed that out yesterday. What is your point?

Sin is very, very powerful, and hurtful, and it causes us great harm. Luther’s teaching on that point is actually far stronger and deeper than yours. However, in a passage like the one you’re so proud of having discovered, Luther is making a different type of point, namely, that as powerful as sin, death, and the devil are, Christ, and His cross, is even stronger. We are Christ’s and He is ours, if i may use the terms of the Song of Songs, and His banner over us, in the form of the holy cross, is love. It protects us from all our enemies, among being our own sinful flesh. As Saint Paul said,

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(sorry, I haven’t learned how to do multiple quotes within quotes or whatever.)

 

[DebChris]

The only thing I know about what Luther taught comes from Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship. Faith leads to works.

I like the earlier analogy of the sky and clouds. Without the sky, our faith, there can be no clouds to produce rain, our works. The sun and rain in concert are necessary for fruit to grow.
As the Catholic Church teaches, Faith is a gift that calls for our faith response. We are able to do the Will of the Father by virtue of the Holy Spirit dwelling within each of us as children of God, as baptized Christians.

St. James said “Faith without works is dead…Show me your faith without works and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”

 

[Deacon_Latif]

The only thing I know about what Luther taught comes from Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Cost of Discipleship. Faith leads to works.

I like the earlier analogy of the sky and clouds. Without the sky, our faith, there can be no clouds to produce rain, our works. The sun and rain in concert are necessary for fruit to grow.
As the Catholic Church teaches, Faith is a gift that calls for our faith response. We are able to do the Will of the Father by virtue of the Holy Spirit dwelling within each of us as children of God, as baptized Christians.

St. James said “Faith without works is dead…Show me your faith without works and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”

I like the tune you’re playing. When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die. And Bonhoeffer didn’t invent that idea. That is pure Luther. Consider, for example, the Small Catechism, where Luther says that the significance of the water in Holy Baptism, is that “It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.” He then quotes Saint Paul, to wit:

Where is this written? - Answer.
St. Paul says Romans, chapter sixth: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[DebChris]

I like the tune you’re playing. When Christ calls a man, He bids him come and die. And Bonhoeffer didn’t invent that idea. That is pure Luther. Consider, for example, the Small Catechism, where Luther says that the significance of the water in Holy Baptism, is that “It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.” He then quotes Saint Paul, to wit:

Where is this written? - Answer.
St. Paul says Romans, chapter sixth: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Luther of course was an Augustinian monk familiar with Catholic teaching. We are called to be disciples, to pick up our cross daily and follow after Him. While the Gift is free, it costs all that we have. Conversion is a daily process. To the extent that we remain in our sin, we have yet to die in Christ. We have yet to live.

 

[hellopeople]

Luther states that technically works are not needed for salvation. But, he believes that true faith are intrinsically accompanied by works. It makes sense though. If you really believe in Jesus, you are no doubt going to be compelled to follow his teachings.

 

[SHW]

People will know what letter you are speaking of if you simply quote it. That’s all that is required.

Adding “most likely” is still an insult. It is arrogant. One thing evidently that both Pope Benedict and I have in common is that we know Luther better than you do, unless you are being disingenuous in this conversation. One thing is utterly clear: you are completely mischaracterizing Luther’s theology. You are throwing Bible verses around, as though Luther was unaware that there was such a thing as the letters of Paul, or that he somehow forgot about those parts. You are implying that Luther’s doctrine is one of libertinism and virtual antinomianism, which begs the question as to whether you have read much of Luther at all.

So the whole reformation led by Luther regarding “faith alone” (with its bloodshed by both Catholics and Protestants) in your view was about mere misunderstanding (semantics)?

The Pope, because of his station, must be extremely diplomatic in speaking of others with differing views whether he agrees personally with them or not. “Qualifiers” come in very handy for this purpose.

Benedict is clearly referring to Luther’s German Bible translation. I just pointed that out yesterday. What is your point?

I was making clear what I understood so that you could correct me if I was in error. I was accused of not understanding “anything” about Luther’s view on faith alone and of insulting both you and the Pope. I had hoped to avoid these accusations against me in your future posts, but I see that I have not succeeded since I am now both insulting and arrogant (in your opinion). Perhaps it would be best for us to not have a dialogue since you believe me to be so offensive.

Sin is very, very powerful, and hurtful, and it causes us great harm. Luther’s teaching on that point is actually far stronger and deeper than yours. However, in a passage like the one you’re so proud of having discovered, Luther is making a different type of point, namely, that as powerful as sin, death, and the devil are, Christ, and His cross, is even stronger. We are Christ’s and He is ours, if i may use the terms of the Song of Songs, and His banner over us, in the form of the holy cross, is love. It protects us from all our enemies, among being our own sinful flesh. As Saint Paul said,

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(sorry, I haven’t learned how to do multiple quotes within quotes or whatever.)

Paul is speaking to the “assumed” elect in Romans 8:38 which you quoted. He was not speaking of people who were in the state of mortal sin as you can see from the following:

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit…

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His…

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live…

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies…

And if they are truly of the elect, then Paul is persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1 Peter 1:2

We are to obey God in order to make our call and election “sure” instead of “assumed”:

2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Luther believed that faith alone was sufficient in order to inherit eternal life. I do not.

Luther called James’ epistle “an epistle of straw.” I think this gives me a very clear picture of Luther’s personal views on the importance of “works.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Luther:

“If your papist,” he says, (40) “makes much useless fuss about the word sola, allein, tell him at once: Doctor Martin Luther will have it so, and says: Papist and donkey are one thing; sic volo, sic jubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. For we do not want to be pupils and followers of the Papists, but their masters and judges.” Then he goes on in the style of foolish boasting against the Papists, imitating the language of St. Paul in dealing with his Judaizing opponents (2 Cor. 11:22 sqq.): “Are they doctors? so am I. Are they learned? so am I. Are they preachers? so am I. Are they theologians? so am I. Are they disputators? so am I. Are they philosophers? so am I. Are they the writers of books? so am I. And I shall further boast: I can expound Psalms and Prophets; which they can not. I can translate; which they can not … Therefore the word allein shall remain in my New Testament, and though all pope-donkeys (Papstesel) should get furious and foolish, they shall not turn it out.” (41)

Luther’s Translation
The Protestant and anti-Romish character of Luther’s New Testament is undeniable in his prefaces, his discrimination between chief books and less important books, his change of the traditional order, and his unfavorable judgments on James, Hebrews, and Revelation. (42) It is still more apparent in his marginal notes, especially on the Pauline Epistles, where he emphasizes throughout the difference between the law and the gospel, and the doctrine of justification by faith alone; and on the Apocalypse, where he finds the papacy in the beast from the abyss (Rev. 13), and in the Babylonian harlot (Rev. 17). (43) The anti-papal explanation of the Apocalypse became for a long time almost traditional in Protestant commentaries.

bible-researcher.com/luther02.html

I believe these quotes show Luther’s personal beliefs accurately. In his view, “faith alone” was sufficient to inherit eternal life. You may continue to personally disagree with me if you desire, but it is best for us to not continue this dialogue.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

So the whole reformation led by Luther regarding “faith alone” (with its bloodshed by both Catholics and Protestants) in your view was about mere misunderstanding (semantics)?

I am not saying that the whole Reformation, and Counter-Reformation, were matters of mere semantic misunderstanding. I am saying, rather, that you, not all of Lutheran and RC disputants, but you, SHW, are guilty of failing to understand the Lutheran position. Besides your unfortunate ignorant bias against Lutheran theology (unfortunate for someone claiming to speak on the topic), you also appear to be infected with a real animosity toward the man, Martin Luther. That’s okay, he can take it. But it doesn’t say much for your own level of maturity.

By the way, I still don’t know you at all, and so I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you personally. I am not opposed to anonymity per se, or pseudonymity per se, but I wonder if you would at least do me the favor of letting us know if you are a lady or a man. That will at least help inform my general behavior toward you in the course of our Christian dialog. Thanks.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

Continued:

Luther:

bible-researcher.com/luther02.html

I believe these quotes show Luther’s personal beliefs accurately. In his view, “faith alone” was sufficient to inherit eternal life. You may continue to personally disagree with me if you desire, but it is best for us to not continue this dialogue.

By the way, where was that second quote from? Obviously it’s not from Dr. Luther himself. Instead on relying on all of these handy quotes you’re getting from secondary sources, why read some Luther for yourself?

 

[SHW]

I am not saying that the whole Reformation, and Counter-Reformation, were matters of mere semantic misunderstanding. I am saying, rather, that you, not all of Lutheran and RC disputants, but you, SHW, are guilty of failing to understand the Lutheran position. Besides your unfortunate ignorant bias against Lutheran theology (unfortunate for someone claiming to speak on the topic), you also appear to be infected with a real animosity toward the man, Martin Luther. That’s okay, he can take it. But it doesn’t say much for your own level of maturity.

By the way, I still don’t know you at all, and so I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you personally. I am not opposed to anonymity per se, or pseudonymity per se, but I wonder if you would at least do me the favor of letting us know if you are a lady or a man. That will at least help inform my general behavior toward you in the course of our Christian dialog. Thanks.

Then, you will be happy to know that I think that the present Lutheran position is pretty close to the Catholic position even though I also think that Luther’s personal position 500 years ago was not. I am not the only person who thinks this. I actually feel sorry for Luther so I bear him no personal animosity, but Luther’s words speak for him. There really is no need for us to “guess” what he meant when we have direct quotes from him.

I personally think that he was an over-scrupulous man and this over-scrupulosity is what led him to preach his new theology of faith alone since he thought that he personally could never measure up and therefore no one else could ever measure up either, and so in his considered opinion, the Catholic position must be in error. However, it was unfortunate that he led many people away from the Catholic truth that both faith and works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-17
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Keeping the commandments is a work.

Best wishes,
Marie

 

[SHW]

By the way, where was that second quote from? Obviously it’s not from Dr. Luther himself. Instead on relying on all of these handy quotes you’re getting from secondary sources, why read some Luther for yourself?

This was to show you that I am not the only person who does not “understand Luther.”

 

[Deacon_Latif]

This was to show you that I am not the only person who does not “understand Luther.”

so who were you quoting, out of curiosity?