Faith vs. Works

[fhansen]

How do Catholics and Protestants reconcile their respective positions considering these takes in scripture? It is something I find quite murky.

James 2: 24

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

vs.

Ephesians 2: 8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is a work of God’s-and yet we must work it out (Phil 2:12-13)- because it’s a collaborative effort, by His deeming it to be so, according to His wisdom. As per the Parable of the Talents God gives us the grace to “invest”, without which we have nothing and can do nothing, and then we must respond, doing the good works He’s set out for us.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Gal 5:6

**But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. **Luke 12:48

 

[SteveVH]

I learned it from a protestant haha. If you don’t agree with that than you have to look away from 2 Corinthians 5. Pretty obvious we will be judged based on our works.

Try Revelation 20:12:

“…The dead were judged according to what they had done.”

 

[Good_Fella]

I see what you are saying and I agree with you but Jesus told her it was her faith that saved her. What she did by washing his feet and all that was amazing. We should all approach Christ in this way but what drove her to do what she did was the fact she believed Christ was who He said He was and that He could forgive Her sins. So it was her faith that saved her. Jesus saw all of the things that she did, told the Pharisees that because her love her sins were forgiven and then tells her that her faith has saved her.

When Paul wrote to the Ephesians (2:5) “Even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved,” he was referring to the reason for our salvation and its condition: the removal of our guilt and the remission of sins, and the simultaneous sanctification and renewal of the person conferred by the sacrament of Baptism. Indeed, faith in Jesus prompted Mary to repent so that her sins would be remitted. But unless she acted in humble obedience by the grace of God and repented, her sins would not have been forgiven, and she would not have been saved. What ultimately saved her were the signal graces of faith, charity, hope, and contrition through the power of the Holy Spirit. As I said, Mary was saved by her faith, but not by faith alone. Her belief in Jesus could not have saved her if she were wanting in hope and love leaving her faith incomplete. It is by the grace of God that we receive the infused virtues, including faith, in order to be saved: freed from guilt and forgiven of our sins.

I understand and agree with what you said for the most part but you it was love that moved Christ to forgive her sins and faith that saved her.

Paul wrote that if he had “all faith” but was “without love” he was “nothing” (1 Cor 13:2). Obviously he didn’t believe that he was saved by faith alone. Indeed he regarded love as the greatest of the three theological virtues which also include faith and hope (13:13).

“Wherefore, I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much.”
Luke 7, 47

PAX

 

[ffg]

From the joint Catholic / Lutheran document titled “The Hope of Eternal Life”;

The bolding is the document’s.

The discussion of the issue of judgement begins at about paragraph 62.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

Thank you Jon,

Take care,

Mike

 

[ffg]

Lutherans believe that Good works will follow in our belief in Christ but will not count as merit before God in our salvation.

Considering the answer from Jon up there from the joint Catholic / Lutheran document titled “The Hope of Eternal Life” -

I don’t see how this statement by hn160 is accurate about Lutherans.

Interestingly, what is mentioned in the second half of Paragraph 110 is an angle I was thinking about regarding this thread’s discussion -

“110 (second half). Both our traditions reject “security” in the face of divine judgment, while recalling that from those to whom much has been given, much will be required (cf. Lk. 12:48).”

If it is true that 'To whom much is given, much is required, it would seem that is instruction to act. Again, not that it is conclusive to an end in itself (security point in the paragraph), but our response would surely be judged against the instruction.

 

[WorkingFaith]

When Paul wrote to the Ephesians (2:5) “Even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved,” he was referring to the reason for our salvation and its condition: the removal of our guilt and the remission of sins, and the simultaneous sanctification and renewal of the person conferred by the sacrament of Baptism. Indeed, faith in Jesus prompted Mary to repent so that her sins would be remitted. But unless she acted in humble obedience by the grace of God and repented, her sins would not have been forgiven, and she would not have been saved. What ultimately saved her were the signal graces of faith, charity, hope, and contrition through the power of the Holy Spirit. As I said, Mary was saved by her faith, but not by faith alone. Her belief in Jesus could not have saved her if she were wanting in hope and love leaving her faith incomplete. It is by the grace of God that we receive the infused virtues, including faith, in order to be saved: freed from guilt and forgiven of our sins.

Paul wrote that if he had “all faith” but was “without love” he was “nothing” (1 Cor 13:2). Obviously he didn’t believe that he was saved by faith alone. Indeed he regarded love as the greatest of the three theological virtues which also include faith and hope (13:13).

“Wherefore, I say unto thee, her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much.”
Luke 7, 47

PAX

I don’t think that you can just sit around and do nothing and be saved. Faith, TRUE FAITH, produces love and charity. In the next verses of Ephesians we see that the salvation comes by faith its a gift from God apart from any works we have done so that nobody may boast. But it goes on to say that we were created to do the work that he has already planned for us. So God in His wisdom showed grace to us that by faith in Christ whom he raised from the dead we would be saved its not because we did something to appeal to God not because of some kind of work but because He is who He is. Along with that faith God has created works for each of His children to do. Therefore we need the works to represent that we truly have faith and we truly are God’s children. He doesn’t want me to boast in the things that I do because its Him who saved me, but my works will show that God has saved me. James says you can’t claim to have faith but not have works because they are inseparable but that does not mean that your works save you and what I was trying to say is faith saved her. Faith and works are like a disease and symptoms. If you have faith you will have works just like if you have a disease you will have symptoms. He would have nothing perhaps because “faith without works is dead”. All in all were saved by the grace of God and how great that is by the faith He gave us apart from the works he formed for us. It all goes back to Grace. Thank God.

 

[pablope]

I see Catholics quoting James as a refutation of the notion of sola fide, yet Protestants point to Paul’s words which seem to more clearly articulate that works are not a means to an end, but an end in themselves. Certainly Protestants perform good works, but as some of the Reformed participants in this thread have mentioned, they do so because their faith inspires, rather than compels them to do so. The only alternative argument, then, is that Catholics perform good works as a matter of pride, but since both they, the Church, and scripture argues against that notion, is the Catholic/Protestant split on this not rather trivial then? It seems to me a point of convergence fractured by semantics.

This article explains the differences: chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf

Justification By Faith
By Dr. William Marshner

Excerpt:

The Protestant Reformers, however, impatient with metaphysics, preferred not to cope with such an entity and denied its existence.4 To them it seemed simpler to say that grace is something wholly in God, namely, His favor towards us. But then, if grace is not something real in man, our “justification” can no longer be conceived as a real change in us; it will have to become a sheer declaration on God’s part, e.g. a declaration that, thanks to the work of Christ, He will henceforth consider us as just, even though we remain inwardly the sinners we always were. Hence, the Protestant doctrine of “forensic” or “extrinsic” justification. Now watch what happens to our own act of faith: it ceases to be the foundational act of an interior renewal and becomes a mere requirement, devoid of any salvific power in its own right, which God arbitrarily sets as the condition on which He will declare us just. Whereupon, watch what happens to our good works: they cease to be the vital acts wherein an ontologically real “new life” consists and manifests itself; they become mere human responses to divine mercy—nice, but totally irrelevant to our justification—or else they become zombie-like motions produced in us by irresistible divine impulses, whereby God exhibits His glory in His elect.

 

[pablope]

I learned it from a protestant haha. If you don’t agree with that than you have to look away from 2 Corinthians 5. Pretty obvious we will be judged based on our works.

Romans 2:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Revelation 14:13

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[rinnie]

How do Catholics and Protestants reconcile their respective positions considering these takes in scripture? It is something I find quite murky.

James 2: 24

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

vs.

Ephesians 2: 8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I am not sure how all protestants view it because there they all disagree with one another on it.

I know the Church teaches we are saved by the Grace of God and by his death on the cross. By his death on the cross we are born again and free from all sin at our baptism.

It is then by his grace that we have the freedom to obey and do his works or reject Christ and his grace and reject his works through us.

It is by our works made possible by his grace that we are judged on the day of our death. And it is by our faith and works working together made possible by the cross that we are judged.

As the word of God states faith without works are Fruitless. So if we believe our faith will save us apart from doing the work of God we are fooling ourself.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

*Here is what Paul has to say about Christian works (good advice!):
*
Romans 12

v9 Your love must be sincere. Hate everything that is evil. Love everything that is good.

v10 As Christian brothers and sisters, love each other fondly.

      Give honour to each other. And do this even more than you care about your own honour!

v11 Do not be lazy in your work on behalf of the Lord. Keep your spiritual energy.

v12 Be joyful in hope. Be patient when you suffer. Be faithful in prayer.

v13 Share with God’s people who are poor. Invite strangers into your home.

v14 Bless those who attack you. Bless them, and do not speak bad things to them.

v15 Be happy with those people who are happy. Weep with those people who weep.

v16 Live in agreement with each other.

      Do not be proud. But be willing to be a friend to people who are not important. 

      Do not think that you are better than other people.

v17 Someone may have done something wrong to you. But do not do something wrong yourself in order to punish them. Do the things that everyone knows to be right. v18 If possible, be friendly with everyone. v19 My friends, when your enemy hurts you, do not try to punish him. Leave it to God’s anger. God says, ‘I will judge people who do evil things. I will punish them.’

v20 Instead, ‘If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat.

      If he wants a drink, give him something to drink.

      Then he will feel as if you have given him hot coals for his fire! (In other words, your kindness will make him ashamed.)’

v21 Do not let evil things defeat you. But defeat evil things by your good behavior.

*Actually, I still say that Paul thought that faith was most important, and works follow faith naturally, because once you have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit will guide your prayers and actions.
*
Romans 8:

v26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us because we are weak. We do not know how we ought to pray. But the Spirit himself acts on our behalf. He prays with cries of pain that words cannot express. v27 God, who knows our hearts, knows the mind of the Spirit. The Spirit prays on behalf of God’s people, even as God wants him to pray.

 

[WorkingFaith]

I am not sure how all protestants view it because there they all disagree with one another on it.

I know the Church teaches we are saved by the Grace of God and by his death on the cross. By his death on the cross we are born again and free from all sin at our baptism.

It is then by his grace that we have the freedom to obey and do his works or reject Christ and his grace and reject his works through us.

It is by our works made possible by his grace that we are judged on the day of our death. And it is by our faith and works working together made possible by the cross that we are judged.

As the word of God states faith without works are Fruitless. So if we believe our faith will save us apart from doing the work of God we are fooling ourself.

So would you say that by God’s grace we are able to be saved if we have faith and works? Your last comment through me off. You said at the top we are saved by the Grace of God and than you said if we believe our faith will save us apart from works we are fooling ourself. So basically you said we are saved by Grace and than we are saved by faith and works. Just needed a little clarity. Thanks.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So would you say that by God’s grace we are able to be saved if we have faith and works? Your last comment through me off. You said at the top we are saved by the Grace of God and than you said if we believe our faith will save us apart from works we are fooling ourself. So basically you said we are saved by Grace and than we are saved by faith and works. Just needed a little clarity. Thanks.

We are saved by Gods grace.

It is his grace that not only allows us to have faith and do good works, but also his grace in dying for us to even give us an opportunity for salvation.

Faith and works are how we respond to his grace.

 

[WorkingFaith]

We are saved by Gods grace.

It is his grace that not only allows us to have faith and do good works, but also his grace in dying for us to even give us an opportunity for salvation.

Faith and works are how we respond to his grace.

I think this is where I get confused on the view because what you just said was we are saved by God’s grace. The grace allows us to have good works. His grace also gives us an opportunity to be saved. So were saved by Gods grace and given the opportunity to be saved at the same time? Also when you say opportunity it sounds like it is something that we earn. I guess how I am taking it is that you’re saying by Grace we have the opportunity to be saved. But you did say we are saved by God’s grace. Sorry I’m just having a hard time understanding

 

[rinnie]

I personally see very little difference between the Protestant and Catholic divide in this matter.

My question is (so the thread can evolve organically, if people wish)

What exactly is the “Will of my Father who is in heaven”? What does that look like?

Love one another as I have loved you. It looks like compassion, being kind, giving to those in need. Holding a hand, helping a neighbor etc.

The will of our Father in heaven is the same as the Will as the Son On earth.

Do onto others and I have done to you.

To be Christlike would be the best answer.

 

[rinnie]

I think this is where I get confused on the view because what you just said was we are saved by God’s grace. The grace allows us to have good works. His grace also gives us an opportunity to be saved. So were saved by Gods grace and given the opportunity to be saved at the same time? Also when you say opportunity it sounds like it is something that we earn. I guess how I am taking it is that you’re saying by Grace we have the opportunity to be saved. But you did say we are saved by God’s grace. Sorry I’m just having a hard time understanding

Let me make it simple for you. NOTHING is possible without the grace of God.

It is because of his grace given to us that we can even begin to have faith, or good works. It is by the grace of God we can even take a breath at this moment.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think this is where I get confused on the view because what you just said was we are saved by God’s grace. The grace allows us to have good works. His grace also gives us an opportunity to be saved. So were saved by Gods grace and given the opportunity to be saved at the same time? Also when you say opportunity it sounds like it is something that we earn. I guess how I am taking it is that you’re saying by Grace we have the opportunity to be saved. But you did say we are saved by God’s grace. Sorry I’m just having a hard time understanding

We are saved by the gracious gift God holds out for us. We must accept the gift.

It’s like if I sold all I had and told you I wanted to give it to you. You would receive the gift not for anything you did but because I am gracious. You would have to accept my gift though or you would not receive it if you choose not to have it. That changes nothing of my grace.

 

[rinnie]

So would you say that by God’s grace we are able to be saved if we have faith and works? Your last comment through me off. You said at the top we are saved by the Grace of God and than you said if we believe our faith will save us apart from works we are fooling ourself. So basically you said we are saved by Grace and than we are saved by faith and works. Just needed a little clarity. Thanks.

Yes I am there is no faith and good works apart from the Grace of God. And faith without works is fruitless.

To make it more clear if God has given me the Grace to have faith, and by using that Grace to do good works that is living out my live to do the will of God.

God game me 10 commandments to follow. Those are works.

If I have grace from God to know the truth, which is faith, but reject that grace and refuse to do good works, then my faith willnot save me.

As the gospel tells me faith without works is fruitless.

And faith and works without the Grace of God to begin with is impossible.

Unless you can show me how we can do anything good on our own without the Grace of God. We rely on his grace for everything.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Let me make it simple for you. NOTHING is possible without the grace of God.

It is because of his grace given to us that we can even begin to have faith, or good works. It is by the grace of God we can even take a breath at this moment.

I totally agree with you. Paul said it that without Christ even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags. Well he said it and quoted it haha. I was wondering if Jon S meant that you God’s grace gives us the opportunity to be saved, Thanks.

 

[WorkingFaith]

We are saved by the gracious gift God holds out for us. We must accept the gift.

It’s like if I sold all I had and told you I wanted to give it to you. You would receive the gift not for anything you did but because I am gracious. You would have to accept my gift though or you would not receive it if you choose not to have it. That changes nothing of my grace.

That isn’t really the same comparison though. The gift your giving me your just saying accept it and you can have it, but your saying that God’s gift of salvation you can’t just accept it. I’m still confused on it but your saying that God gives you the opportunity so he is still expecting you to do something or you are saying that God gives you salvation and you have to have faith and works to receive the gift. You see what I’m saying?

I tried thinking of an example like you provided but I couldn’t get my thoughts to the keyboard haha.

 

[Richard_White]

Ephesians here merely states that grace come sto us as a gift from God, not something that we create for ourselves. This means we can’t boast, “o look at me, look at allnthe grace I made for myself.” This grace comes from God due to the faith we have and through the charitable works that Jesus calls us to do: “For what you do to the least of My bretheren, you do to Me.” May God bless you.