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TexanKnight
Guest
“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21). (Works)
“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17). (Works)
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21). (Works)
“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2 8). (Works)
“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4 6). (Works)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8 10). (Works and Faith)
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12 13). (Salvation not a given)
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them,
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)
1 John 2:3 4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17). (Works)
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21). (Works)
“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2 8). (Works)
“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4 6). (Works)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8 10). (Works and Faith)
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12 13). (Salvation not a given)
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them,
Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14 24). (Works AND Faith)26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Can lose your Salvation)
1 John 2:3 4 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
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Servant19
Guest
I personally see very little difference between the Protestant and Catholic divide in this matter.
My question is (so the thread can evolve organically, if people wish)
What exactly is the “Will of my Father who is in heaven”? What does that look like?
My question is (so the thread can evolve organically, if people wish)
What exactly is the “Will of my Father who is in heaven”? What does that look like?
First thought? You shall love The Lord your God… And your neighbor as yourself.
Faith in God, and good works directed at your neighbor.
Jon
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Jon_S_1
Guest
It looks like what Jesus said the two greatest commandments are;
Love The Lord your God with all your heart
And
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus gives clear demonstration of this in Matt 25; which summarizes the gospel very well:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Nice answer. I think we posted at the same time.
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SteveVH
Guest
And I was just getting ready to post the same thing when I realized I hadn’t read the subsequent threads. Glad I did.Nice answer. I think we posted at the same time.
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concretecamper
Guest
Trent:
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]
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But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]
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concretecamper
Guest
More from Trent
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: “Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: “Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]
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concretecamper
Guest
Last post from Trent
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
Canon 4.
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
Canon 4.
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
So you’re getting more at what the differences are between the different faith traditions, correct? Because I still fail to see a contradiction (I guess I’m missing out, huh?
).My understanding is, at least in the Lutheran/Evangelical tradition, justification is an act whereby God, out of his great kindness and love for us, blots out our sins through the Crucifixion of Christ by declaring us just and holy in his eyes. It is this declaration from God that makes us just. The inner transformation that necessarily takes place afterward is called “sanctification”, where we are made holy. That, however, is fundamentally different from justification, or being made right in God’s eyes. Hence Luther’s idea of being both “sinner and saint”.
OTOH, in the Catholic tradition, justification consists not only of a declaration from God saying we are “clean”, but also of an interior cleansing so to speak, and after this interior transformation where faith, hope, and divine charity are infused in our souls, we are seen as right in God’s eyes. We are declared “righteous” or “justified” by God only after this inner conversion. This of course made possible through the Passion of Our Lord who merited the grace for our salvation. In Catholicism, justification and sanctification are seen as one and the same thing. In a sense too, Catholics can agree with Luther’s idea of Christians being sinner and saint, but because of venial sins making our inner charity less perfect, rather than because of being justified while still not yet being made holy.
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tstrong728
Guest
You’re right, not much difference because though Protestants may say “Faith Alone” they then start adding Works back into their explanation - purposefully confusing the Catholic position by asserting false arguments.
By asking/answering the above question, Protestants will end up including works into their Salvation… you must DO the will of the Father.
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Cathoholic
Guest
Tempelritter. You stated:
Luther seemed to think this way too. I don’t know if he DID think this way but there are plenty of Protestants I have met that do seem to have this attitude.
You can read and draw your own conclusions from Luther.
Martin Luther In the first place it (the Epistle of James) is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]. It (again, the Epistle of James) says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac [2:21]; though in Romans 4:2-22] St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6].
JonNC? You are the Luther expert. I think you have read more of Luther than Luther, so maybe you have something to add concerning this . . .
Tempelritter. Don’t pit one verse of Scripture against another. See what you can do to harmonize the Bible verses. Affirm ALL the Bible verses and don’t ADD the word “alone” to any of the verses when the word “alone” isn’t there.
When the Bible teaches:
. . . . AFFIRM A,B,C, and D!
The Holy Spirit is not going to contradict Himself.
The other thing you need to do concerning your thread question is to see how St. Paul defines “faith”.
Tempelritter. Do you think St. Paul sees faith as a . . . .
You probably think this way because of your Protestant tradition.
Luther seemed to think this way too. I don’t know if he DID think this way but there are plenty of Protestants I have met that do seem to have this attitude.
You can read and draw your own conclusions from Luther.
Martin Luther In the first place it (the Epistle of James) is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]. It (again, the Epistle of James) says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac [2:21]; though in Romans 4:2-22] St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6].
- Luther’s Works, Vol. 35, pages 395 – 396
JonNC? You are the Luther expert. I think you have read more of Luther than Luther, so maybe you have something to add concerning this . . .
Tempelritter. Don’t pit one verse of Scripture against another. See what you can do to harmonize the Bible verses. Affirm ALL the Bible verses and don’t ADD the word “alone” to any of the verses when the word “alone” isn’t there.
When the Bible teaches:
- A
- B
- C
- D
. . . . AFFIRM A,B,C, and D!
The Holy Spirit is not going to contradict Himself.
The other thing you need to do concerning your thread question is to see how St. Paul defines “faith”.
Tempelritter. Do you think St. Paul sees faith as a . . . .
- Mere intellectual assent ONLY?
- As a belief that NECESSARILY includes obedience (for an adult who knows better)?
We will be able to see from St. Paul ALONE that we are not justified by faith ALONE. Catholics don’t need to cite St. James, but with him saying so explicitly and obviously stating, we are “not justified by faith ALONE” you really can’t blame the Catholics for citing this and wondering HOW you could conclude we are justified by faith alone
.
But for now you have some built-in pre-suppositions that are not supported by the Scriptures so I will wait before unpacking verses.
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TexanKnight
Guest
So, let us not ask James, or Paul.
Let us ask Jesus. What did Jesus say?
“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17)
Did Jesus say, “just have faith?”
No. What we need, we got from Jesus.
Should He be the final word?
Let us ask Jesus. What did Jesus say?
“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16 17)
Did Jesus say, “just have faith?”
No. What we need, we got from Jesus.
Should He be the final word?
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ffg
Guest
Why ‘vs.’ always?
As there is at least a semblance of truth in all religions, as it is the attracting factor, understanding the ability to build on the knowledge you have is to be motivating. Unless you really think you know all about a subject that I would argue is impossible for a human to know in it’s entirety.
If 100 religions have faith as the core principle, and talk down on one with Faith AND (fill in the blank)…
One should conclude -
That’s what the ‘works’ means, ‘works’ isn’t anything about a knowledge of an outcome. That is not the teaching of the Church. Which crumbles the argument ‘against’ works because it’s fighting a non-teaching.
We agree you do not enter Heaven through any other means but by the mercy and love of God, we do not ‘do’ to get in.
However, we do ‘do’ to prepare for that moment at the gate so that God will call our name.
I give you my favorite parable. - 10 people, all with faith (they all know God), half do not prepare. What is the outcome?
Matt 25 - The Parable of the Ten Virgins.*
1“Then* the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2* Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them,
4but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
5Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’
10While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked.
11* a Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’
12But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13b Therefore, stay awake,* for you know neither the day nor the hour.
As there is at least a semblance of truth in all religions, as it is the attracting factor, understanding the ability to build on the knowledge you have is to be motivating. Unless you really think you know all about a subject that I would argue is impossible for a human to know in it’s entirety.
If 100 religions have faith as the core principle, and talk down on one with Faith AND (fill in the blank)…
One should conclude -
- The 100 do not know the teachings of the 1 since the 1 is the one doing the teaching.
- If the teachings of the 1 are logical and accurate, the 100 are missing puzzle pieces.
That’s what the ‘works’ means, ‘works’ isn’t anything about a knowledge of an outcome. That is not the teaching of the Church. Which crumbles the argument ‘against’ works because it’s fighting a non-teaching.
We agree you do not enter Heaven through any other means but by the mercy and love of God, we do not ‘do’ to get in.
However, we do ‘do’ to prepare for that moment at the gate so that God will call our name.
I give you my favorite parable. - 10 people, all with faith (they all know God), half do not prepare. What is the outcome?
Matt 25 - The Parable of the Ten Virgins.*
1“Then* the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2* Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them,
4but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps.
5Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
9But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’
10While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked.
11* a Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’
12But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13b Therefore, stay awake,* for you know neither the day nor the hour.
I don’t know what Tempelritter’s communion is, so I won’t comment.
Further, please know I am not an expert on Luther, but a layman who cares that we act with accuracy about each other, even thought sadly divided.
I feel the need to add what he says prior to the quote above.
*“Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.” *
First, he starts of with praise, because it sets up no doctrines of men. The entirety is now based on that he does not consider it a work of an apostle. Based on what? Based on this discussion about Abraham, what Paul says, and what James says.
From the perspective of whether or not works (along with faith - which must be included here because based on what I’ve read, Catholics do not teach works righteousness, or justification by works), justifies, we must look at all of scripture, and what individual communions teach.
Luther is an important theologian to Lutherans. He taught, and we teach that justification comes by grace alone, through faith. St. Paul is clear in this.
But in Galatians, Paul tells us that we must have a faith that works through love (charity).
ISTM that this is what James is driving at. That the justified are called by Christ’s command to do good works, to show fervent love to his neighbor. Lutherans would say that, as justification is a gift of grace, by grace we are declared righteous, which then frees us to do the good works He prepares for us to do. But this freedom is not permission not to do good works. From our confessions:
I don’t know if this is Tempelritter’s intend, but I agree with your statement. Lutherans (I don’t speak at all for protestants) must agree with James when he says faith without works is dead. Luther says this, that without love (good works through charity), faith has no purpose.
The issue between Lutherans and Catholics, then is never are good works necessary. We agree they are. The question is in what way are they required? As part of an ongoing justification? Or as a response to justification, made possible by grace?
Jon
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fartheralong
Guest
Evangelicals – or the born again people -
- have experiences that they – do and say things that are directed by the Holy Spirit-- example – the Lord said or the Lord told me this – or the Lord had me do that
ha ha
C
Cathoholic
Guest
JonNC. Irrespective of “praise” for or not: Concerning the Epistle of James, do YOU believe and agree with Luther concerning (?) . . .
Yes, and no.
Yes, I agree that the writer of James (be it St. James of not notwithstanding) when Luther says: * “In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task. He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love." *
James statement about Abraham does seem to contradict Paul’s.
No, I do not agree that James is not among the chief books. It is. And it is because it is important for Christians to know James’ message, that the regenerate need to guard against faith that doesn’t work. Whether or not James is written poorly regarding Abraham is irrelevant. It is more likely to me that what James says is in agreement with Galatians 5. And it is among the chief books because it has been considered such for centuries within the Church.
Jon
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