Faith -> works, or faith + works?

[Solmyr]

This is the condensed Catholic view, from the Catechism. The quote at the end is from St John of the Cross:

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

Unfortunately it does not answer my point. If works without faith are insufficient, then the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair. And I don’t love those people who receive my donations, I feel sorry for them - out of compassion.

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and some people that receive faith do not care what God’s intention is in giving it, rather that it is a gift is what is important, however what God gives is good. If it were not good for the recipient, then it could be a person or thing intended secretly to undermine or bring about the downfall of an enemy or opponent, such as a Trojan Horse.

I never received that “gift” of faith - which is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.).

When done out of compassion we are reflecting God’s love for us and we build on this relationship with He who is Love itself.

So I am building a relationship with God, unbeknownst to me? And without the intent to build such a relationship? Very peculiar… looks like I know very little about myself.

The full nature of God may be hidden so that the person may express his love for his neighbour unencombered by reasons of personal gain.

As I said, when I give to someone, there is no “love” involved in the process, only compassion.

The person does it knowing it is the right thing to do. That’s faith in my books.

I cannot reflect on your personal usage of words.

One of the major obstacles in communication with Christians is that they use some off-the-wall meanings to everyday words.

 

[Bookcat]

Regarding Faith and Works in St. Paul

From Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

 

[Aloysium]

Sorry I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with something I said.

If I said something incorrect please point it out and let me know. I have thick skin and am here to learn, you will not offend me. I in no way claim to have complete knowledge of the Faith. But to speak in riddles is of no benifit to me.

God Bless

I think I agree but I wouldn’t use the word “first” because to me it implies a temporal sequence.

A relationship is mutual
God creates us and offers us His love.
So, His grace is primary.

We have strayed, but He calls us back.

God’s grace is given as He chooses.
Where the is more, more is expected.

He loves us all, and we all have the opportunity to know Him.

 

[Bookcat]

From Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works

Part I

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

Part II

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

 

[fhansen]

Unfortunately it does not answer my point. If works without faith are insufficient, then the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair. And I don’t love those people who receive my donations, I feel sorry for them - out of compassion.

Empathy, mercy, compassion are expressions of love.

 

[Solmyr]

Empathy, mercy, compassion are expressions of love.

No, not “are”, only can be. One can feel empathy or compassion without love. It is not a good idea to “fuzzy up” the line between different types of feelings and emotions. To feel sorry for someone is not the same as to love someone. Be as it may, there is absolutely no “faith” involved in my helping someone in need.

 

[fhansen]

No, not “are”, only can be. One can feel empathy or compassion without love. It is not a good idea to “fuzzy up” the line between different types of feelings and emotions. To feel sorry for someone is not the same as to love someone. Be as it may, there is absolutely no “faith” involved in my helping someone in need.

I think its very easy to mistake the signs-but consider the opposite, consider the selfish attitude-all too common in we humans-that would ignore the plight of others, and seek to justify it’s lack of concern in various ways. I believe there’s a lot more to simply feeling sorry for someone than we think. especially as it moves us to* act*, to be drawn from our complacency. The actions of the Good Samaritan were quite profound in their own way-many would rather ignore the downtrodden. And yet Jesus tells us that how we treat them-“the least”- will be the basis of our own judgment.

 

[Aloysium]

No, not “are”, only can be. One can feel empathy or compassion without love. It is not a good idea to “fuzzy up” the line between different types of feelings and emotions. To feel sorry for someone is not the same as to love someone. Be as it may, there is absolutely no “faith” involved in my helping someone in need.

Some people help those in need because they are in need and it is the right thing to do.
Some people help because they feel like it which implies that they don’t if they feel differently.
You are correct in the first instance it is not love, but simply an emotional response.
As Christians, we are called to love, to give even when it hurts, to forgive when we do not want to, to be patient when it benefits only the other.
Clearly, if your “help” is a knee jerk response, I would agree, you do not have faith.

 

[fhansen]

From Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works

Part I

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

Part II

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

These were very, very, good teachings. Here are a few excerpts:

**“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love."

“Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone.”**

 

[MT1926]

Unfortunately it does not answer my point. If works without faith are insufficient, then the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair. And I don’t love those people who receive my donations, I feel sorry for them - out of compassion.

Could you explain further what you mean by “the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair”?

When a Catholic states “works without faith are insufficient”, we mean the works are insufficient for “salvation”, not the actual act is worth less “monetarily”. Therefore how can it be grossly unfair to the unbeliever for the Catholic to say the unbeliever will not receive something they don’t believe in, in the first place?

I never received that “gift” of faith - which is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.).

Exactly the point I am making above.

So I am building a relationship with God, unbeknownst to me? And without the intent to build such a relationship? Very peculiar… looks like I know very little about myself.

God is always open to building a relationship with you. He gave you free will to accept or refuse this relationship.

As I said, when I give to someone, there is no “love” involved in the process, only compassion.

Excellent I am glad to see you are helping the needed through your compassion. We choose to do it out of love, because Jesus asked us to do it that way. As I stated both acts are on equal ground in this world, but we believe that Jesus asked us to do it out of love to gain eternal life.

I cannot reflect on your personal usage of words.

Yes I find this is one of the biggest obstacles to chatting on the internet. If you have difficulty reflecting on a personal usage of a word feel free to ask for clarification.

One of the major obstacles in communication with Christians is that they use some off-the-wall meanings to everyday words.

Yes this can be difficult, but please try and give us a little slack. It is important to remember that quite often on this site we a talking about the Bible, which dates back 1000’s of years. So quite often we have to remember that some of the words from the Bible can have a different meaning 2000 years ago than what the everyday meaning is in our current culture.

 

[MT1926]

I think I agree but I wouldn’t use the word “first” because to me it implies a temporal sequence.

A relationship is mutual
God creates us and offers us His love.
So, His grace is primary.

We have strayed, but He calls us back.

God’s grace is given as He chooses.
Where the is more, more is expected.

He loves us all, and we all have the opportunity to know Him.

Sounds good. I have no troubles with saying grace is primary, instead of first. Never thought of it implying a temporal sequence but see how that could be taken out of context.

 

[ynotzap]

Unfortunately it does not answer my point. If works without faith are insufficient, then the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair. And I don’t love those people who receive my donations, I feel sorry for them - out of compassion.

Faith without works is dead (Jas;2; 17) Read the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10 29-37) Who is my neighbor? Jesus identified Himself with the poor, and each person. In giving to help another in need you give to Jesus. Samaritans were look upon as sinners, not of the “chosen” Yet the chosen bypassed the man in need, then Jesus asked, “Who was the neighbor to the man,and they answered, “the one who showed mercy” and Jesus answered,” go and do likewise" No need to be depressed!

Solmyr:

I never received that “gift” of faith - which is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.).

Faith foremost is a supernatural gift given by God, the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ, who then in turn gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father calls him, and no one can go to the Father except through Jesus. It is God who takes the initiative. It’s not our first initiative, we must be caused to make that move.

Solmyr:

So I am building a relationship with God, unbeknownst to me? And without the intent to build such a relationship? Very peculiar… looks like I know very little about myself.

You will be surprised what we don’t know about ourselves. One of the first inspirations of the Holy Spirit when living a life of grace is “To know thyself”

Solmyr:

As I said, when I give to someone, there is no “love” involved in the process, only compassion.

There is a difference between the emotion of love, which involves feeling, and true love which is an act of the will. Feelings may be absent, but the act is compassion which is an expression of “love of neighbor” It shows “good will” The Christmas message was "Peace on earth to men of good will, not men of sanctifying grace, which was only available through Jesus. The Giver was born to do just that, to redeem men “…a Redeemer is born unto you…” It reminds me of the “Widows mite”, she gave all that she had, and Jesus highly approved of her actions. We can only give what we have, not what we don’t have. I also like to note, that how can you have c ompassion without feeling, you said you felt sorry for the individual. The proof of love for God is our act of loving our neighbor for the love of God. If we do not love God, it is still an act of “good will” which I believe predisposes one before God to receive His graces. It’s all good!

.

 

[Solmyr]

Could you explain further what you mean by “the “treatment” of unbelievers is grossly unfair”?

When a Catholic states “works without faith are insufficient”, we mean the works are insufficient for “salvation”, not the actual act is worth less “monetarily”. Therefore how can it be grossly unfair to the unbeliever for the Catholic to say the unbeliever will not receive something they don’t believe in, in the first place?

Since we do not believe in the existence of hell either, would it not be also unfair to put the atheists there for the lack of faith and torture them forever? Of course it would be quite nice, if - upon our death - God would tell us: “Well, my child, you behaved kindly to others, you helped them in their need, so you are offered this reward… if you wish to take it. If you don’t want it, you will be thrown into the eternal fire, where the flames are not quenched, and the worm will eat your flesh… pick your choice. And then he would ”

God is always open to building a relationship with you. He gave you free will to accept or refuse this relationship.

As long as God refuses to manifest himself to me, there can be no relationship.

Excellent I am glad to see you are helping the needed through your compassion. We choose to do it out of love, because Jesus asked us to do it that way. As I stated both acts are on equal ground in this world, but we believe that Jesus asked us to do it out of love to gain eternal life.

Except that works without faith are useless… aren’t they?

As for the problems of communication, we could discuss it in a different thread.

 

[Solmyr]

Faith foremost is a supernatural gift given by God, the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ, who then in turn gives the gift of the Holy Spirit. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father calls him, and no one can go to the Father except through Jesus. It is God who takes the initiative. It’s not our first initiative, we must be caused to make that move.

As I said many times, I am ready.

There is a difference between the emotion of love, which involves feeling, and true love which is an act of the will.

This is much too vague. If I would grab a two-by-four and beat the living … ahem… daylight out of someone, it would be an act of will, but it would not be “love”. Please be more specific.

I also like to note, that how can you have c ompassion without feeling, you said you felt sorry for the individual.

To feel sorry for someone is also a “feeling” .

The proof of love for God is our act of loving our neighbor for the love of God. If we do not love God, it is still an act of “good will” which I believe predisposes one before God to receive His graces. It’s all good!

I have no problem with that. But the teaching is that “works without faith” is useless (just like faith without works.)

 

[fhansen]

From Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works

Part I

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

Part II

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

Another awesome thing about the pope’s teachings here is that he recognizes that faith isn’t merely a one-time thought or idea, by which one gains a born-again experience. Rather faith is relationship/communion with God, which constitutes man’s justice-and promises to develop into more justice yet:

**“We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love”.

“This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.”
**

 

[fisherman_carl]

In my own life faith and love in a context of relationship with God is needed to do anything. I find without love for God and neighbour i do not have the desire to do works. And without faith I am doing them on my own. Thus, for me love for God and desire to please him is needed. Faith is really presupposed in this. You can’t love what you don’t believe in. And within faith is trust that God is leading you. And grace is what makes it all work.

 

[MT1926]

Since we do not believe in the existence of hell either, would it not be also unfair to put the atheists there for the lack of faith and torture them forever? Of course it would be quite nice, if - upon our death - God would tell us: “Well, my child, you behaved kindly to others, you helped them in their need, so you are offered this reward… if you wish to take it. If you don’t want it, you will be thrown into the eternal fire, where the flames are not quenched, and the worm will eat your flesh… pick your choice. And then he would ”

I’m confused how can I put you somewhere that you don’t believe exists?
Why would you want a reward from someone you have no desire to have a relationship with?
Being an Atheist if you met God and he told you he was going to send you to hell, wouldn’t you just think you were dreaming it and ignore him? How would you know you were dead if you don’t believe in an afterlife?

On a side note the Catholic Church does not teach that all nonCatholics go to hell. So just a heads up, if the day comes and you think you might be dreaming that you are standing before God, you better pinch yourself before you open your mouth.

As long as God refuses to manifest himself to me, there can be no relationship.

How would you expect God to manifest himself to you if you don’t open yourself up to the relationship? Your words make me think of the grade school kid who cries at home because he has no friends. When you go see him at school he is the one that sits by himself and doesn’t say anything everytime another child approaches him

Except that works without faith are useless… aren’t they?

I already answered this. Works without faith are useless to the Catholic and have no heavenly value. Since you have no desire of a heavenly value why would you even give that statement a second thought. Now works by them self have great earthly value and I feel should be performed by all.

As for the problems of communication, we could discuss it in a different thread.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about communication with God? I’ve had some good ones. Most of the time it is one way communication, but when he speaks back…WOW!!!

 

[Vico]

…I never received that “gift” of faith - which is Hebrews 11:1 (Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.)…

I see, so you were not baptized then.

Modern Catholic Dictionary

BAPTISMAL GRACES. The supernatural effects of the sacrament of baptism. They are:

1. removal of all guilt of sin, original and personal;
2. removal of all punishment due to sin, temporal and eternal;
3. infusion of sanctifying grace along with the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
4. incorporation into Christ; and
5, entrance into the Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church;
6. imprinting of the baptismal character, which enables a person to receive the other sacraments, to participate in the priesthood of Christ through the sacred liturgy, and to grow in the likeness of Christ through personal sanctification.

Baptism does not remove two effects of original sin, namely concupiscence and bodily mortality. However, it does enable a Christian to be sanctified by his struggle with concupiscence and gives him the title to rising in a glorified body on the last day.​

 

[Solmyr]

In my own life faith and love in a context of relationship with God is needed to do anything. I find without love for God and neighbour i do not have the desire to do works. And without faith I am doing them on my own. Thus, for me love for God and desire to please him is needed. Faith is really presupposed in this. You can’t love what you don’t believe in. And within faith is trust that God is leading you. And grace is what makes it all work.

You see, we are somewhat different. When I see someone who is in need of help, and I feel the “urge” to help, it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young. As some believers say: “There, for the grace of God, go I”, which I don’t believe literally… but I could be someone who needs help. So I stick to the old adage, “what goes around, comes around”. Spread the good “deeds”, and the world will be better. If you wish to call me selfish, that is fine, too.

I’m confused how can I put you somewhere that you don’t believe exists?

Who said that I am infallible? I could be wrong, can’t I?

Why would you want a reward from someone you have no desire to have a relationship with?

As I said, the ball is in God’s court. I am open to the relationship. I cannot do anything more.

Being an Atheist if you met God and he told you he was going to send you to hell, wouldn’t you just think you were dreaming it and ignore him? How would you know you were dead if you don’t believe in an afterlife?

If God is not “smart” enough to enlighten me, he can ask me, and I will give him a few pointers.

On a side note the Catholic Church does not teach that all nonCatholics go to hell.

Sure, only the unrepentant sinners. And since I HEARD about God, I cannot claim invincible ignorance… or can I?

How would you expect God to manifest himself to you if you don’t open yourself up to the relationship?

Easy. I don’t believe in the Loch Ness monster, in Bigfoot, in leprechauns or the tooth fairy, but if these would manifest themselves to me, I would HAVE TO accept their existence.

Your words make me think of the grade school kid who cries at home because he has no friends. When you go see him at school he is the one that sits by himself and doesn’t say anything everytime another child approaches him

This is not the case… when you come to schoolyard, you see no one else, but this kid… all alone.

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you talking about communication with God? I’ve had some good ones. Most of the time it is one way communication, but when he speaks back…WOW!!!

Well, I have not.

I see, so you were not baptized then.

Yes, I was… of course I had nothing to do with the ceremony, I was merely a few months old. And the Holy Spirit somehow “forgot” to infuse me with faith. Of course I have “hope” and I have “charity”… but the faith evaporated. Not that I actually miss it.

 

[Vico]

You see, we are somewhat different. When I see someone who is in need of help, and I feel the “urge” to help, it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young. As some believers say: “There, for the grace of God, go I”, which I don’t believe literally… but I could be someone who needs help. So I stick to the old adage, “what goes around, comes around”. Spread the good “deeds”, and the world will be better. If you wish to call me selfish, that is fine, too.

Who said that I am infallible? I could be wrong, can’t I?

As I said, the ball is in God’s court. I am open to the relationship. I cannot do anything more.

If God is not “smart” enough to enlighten me, he can ask me, and I will give him a few pointers.

Sure, only the unrepentant sinners. And since I HEARD about God, I cannot claim invincible ignorance… or can I?

Easy. I don’t believe in the Loch Ness monster, in Bigfoot, in leprechauns or the tooth fairy, but if these would manifest themselves to me, I would HAVE TO accept their existence.

This is not the case… when you come to schoolyard, you see no one else, but this kid… all alone.

Well, I have not.

Yes, I was… of course I had nothing to do with the ceremony, I was merely a few months old. And the Holy Spirit somehow “forgot” to infuse me with faith. Of course I have “hope” and I have “charity”… but the faith evaporated. Not that I actually miss it.

Then it is not accurate to say that faith was never infused. Faith must grow from the initial infusion. Faith, hope, and charity can be destroyed by sins. Sins against faith are voluntary doubt, incredulity, heresy, apostasy, and schism. Sins against hope are despair and presumption. Sins against charity are indifference, ingratitude, lukewarmness, spiritual sloth, and hatred of God. (CCC 2088-2089, 2091-2094)