Faith -> works, or faith + works?

[MT1926]

You see, we are somewhat different. When I see someone who is in need of help, and I feel the “urge” to help, it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young. As some believers say: “There, for the grace of God, go I”, which I don’t believe literally… but I could be someone who needs help. So I stick to the old adage, “what goes around, comes around”. Spread the good “deeds”, and the world will be better. If you wish to call me selfish, that is fine, too.

I do apologize for everyone here if our comments are coming across that an atheist is incapable of doing “good works”. It sounds to me like you are doing a great job and it sounds like you had a good upbringing and parents that taught you well. I am not here to evangelize you, but I am just curious why you no longer believe? We are kind of getting off topic here so feel free to message me instead of posting here.

Who said that I am infallible? I could be wrong, can’t I?

Infallible or not I don’t even have the power to send you across the street if you don’t want to go.

As I said, the ball is in God’s court. I am open to the relationship. I cannot do anything more.

If God is not “smart” enough to enlighten me, he can ask me, and I will give him a few pointers.

Sure, only the unrepentant sinners. And since I HEARD about God, I cannot claim invincible ignorance… or can I?

Easy. I don’t believe in the Loch Ness monster, in Bigfoot, in leprechauns or the tooth fairy, but if these would manifest themselves to me, I would HAVE TO accept their existence.

As you can probably tell by my signature cannot is a word that doesn’t exit my mouth very often. I don’t mean to judge but your first statement, about being open, seems to be contradicted by the next three. Typing on the internet is always more difficult than speaking with someone, it is hard to tell if you are being serious, arrogant, or angry with these statements. Just curious though what would God have to do to make you believe. Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago in simpler times and many did not believe. In this day would he be able to do anything that you would not think was a trick or gag? On a side note if he did show himself to you would you end up with faith or just knowledge? I mean does knowledge have the same meaning that faith does? In my mind my faith in Jesus tells me to listen to his teachings and guides me to be a better person. If I had complete knowledge of God’s existence I think my life would turn more into a job and a check list of all the things I need to do to get the promotion. Basically I think faith allows me to see him as a loving Father who stands in the background and guides me in life. Knowledge would turn me into the son that is only cutting the grass because I want to go swimming with my friends later.

This is not the case… when you come to schoolyard, you see no one else, but this kid… all alone.

Well, I have not.

Yes, I was… of course I had nothing to do with the ceremony, I was merely a few months old. And the Holy Spirit somehow “forgot” to infuse me with faith. Of course I have “hope” and I have “charity”… but the faith evaporated. Not that I actually miss it.

I am so sorry to hear that. Faith is a tough one to hold onto, in this day and age. There are times I feel all alone as well, and this is what can let our faith slip away so easily. We live in an evil world with so many unkind people and so much hatred, sometimes it is hard to see what we are fighting for.

God Bless

 

[fisherman_carl]

You see, we are somewhat different. When I see someone who is in need of help, and I feel the “urge” to help, it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young. As some believers say: “There, for the grace of God, go I”, which I don’t believe literally… but I could be someone who needs help. So I stick to the old adage, “what goes around, comes around”. Spread the good “deeds”, and the world will be better. If you wish to call me selfish, that is fine, too.

What you are taking about is natural virtue. What I am talking about is more than natural virtue which anyone can have. Jesus said we could do nothing apart from him. What is he talking about? He is talking about spiritual works that please God. God gives those baptized in Christ the three theological virtues faith, hope, and charity. And these are a gift of grace. And specifically the gift of love is something that is very important to me and I see in my life and in others how this gift is real. For instance, my own father was practically an atheist (as well as miserable) when he was driving to work one day when the Lord spoke to him and said, 'Jesus Christ is the only thing that really matters in your life. " That was the beginning of a new journey for him. He says now as a Christian for many years that before he was a Christian he didn’t have any love for his kids or his wife. But that as a Christian he is now able to love us. I see this in many examples. I see how he changed from a man who was full of rage to someone who deeply loves the Lord and others. The thing is we can’t compare ourselves to other people. Because we are not on a level playing people. Some people who are not Christian may have well developed the natural virtues of love, etc. While others not so much. However, God’s gift of faith, hope and love are supernatural gifts that will always be greater than what that person is naturally capable of. So they can only compare themselves to themselves before and after.

 

[Solmyr]

Infallible or not I don’t even have the power to send you across the street if you don’t want to go.

God could, if he wanted to. I am not hostile to the idea. Do you know the old story about the boy scout? When he got home, his father asked him, if he did any good deeds that day? He answered: “Yes, father. With my 5 friends we helped an old man to cross a busy street.” His father said: “That is very nice… but why did you need your friends?” And kid answered: “Because the old bugger did not want to cross the street!”. Well, I am not resisting. But God is gun-shy I guess.

Just curious though what would God have to do to make you believe. Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago in simpler times and many did not believe. In this day would he be able to do anything that you would not think was a trick or gag?

Lots of ways.

On a side note if he did show himself to you would you end up with faith or just knowledge? I mean does knowledge have the same meaning that faith does?

A very important and enlightening usage of words: “just knowledge”? In my world “knowledge” is FAR superior to “faith”. Hebrews 11:1… “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”… which translates to me “blind” faith (“what we do not see”).

In my mind my faith in Jesus tells me to listen to his teachings and guides me to be a better person.

I am already trying to be as good a person as I can be. I need no outside help for that, though it would be useful to have that “check-list”. Because I use my own conscience as my guideline. What else?

If I had complete knowledge of God’s existence I think my life would turn more into a job and a check list of all the things I need to do to get the promotion. Basically I think faith allows me to see him as a loving Father who stands in the background and guides me in life. Knowledge would turn me into the son that is only cutting the grass because I want to go swimming with my friends later.

I don’t understand. What is wrong with knowledge?

I am so sorry to hear that. Faith is a tough one to hold onto, in this day and age. There are times I feel all alone as well, and this is what can let our faith slip away so easily. We live in an evil world with so many unkind people and so much hatred, sometimes it is hard to see what we are fighting for.

Please, don’t be sorry. I have no need for faith. Let me quote you the mathematician Laplace, who presented his book about the celestial movements of planets to Napoleon. Napoleon asked him, why he doesn’t mention God in his book? Laplace answered: “Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis”.

What you are taking about is natural virtue. What I am talking about is more than natural virtue which anyone can have.

It is sufficient for me.

He says now as a Christian for many years that before he was a Christian he didn’t have any love for his kids or his wife.

Well, I guess we are all different. Love for me needs no external “push”.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Well, I guess we are all different. Love for me needs no external “push”.

Yes we are. And, I am likely not the only one who’s not been feeling the love. But, then you only need to conform to an uninformed conscience. I suppose you just have to please yourself.

 

[Solmyr]

But, then you only need to conform to an uninformed conscience.

How on Earth would you know if my conscience is “informed” or “uninformed”? Don’t you realize that such a remark is very insulting?

I suppose you just have to please yourself.

In a sense that is true… but it just so happens that my “uninformed” conscience tells me that it is better (and more satisfactory) to give than to receive. So I am happy to follow it, and I “love” others without God commanding me to “love them… or ELSE!”.

 

[Aloysium]

How on Earth would you know if my conscience is “informed” or “uninformed”? Don’t you realize that such a remark is very insulting?

In a sense that is true… but it just so happens that my “uninformed” conscience tells me that it is better (and more satisfactory) to give than to receive. So I am happy to follow it, and I “love” others without God commanding me to “love them… or ELSE!”.

What informs your conscience? I am really interested. It is that sort of connection with reality that the label “atheism” fails to describe.

According to my understanding God is love. You do not believe in God. Either you don’t believe in a God in which I also do not believe or you do not believe that everything exists as an act of Divine love, making such acts central to all creation.

You are really touchy, btw. You were insulted? I don’t know you.

I’m not sure what your “or else” is about. Or else you won’t experience the true happiness and peace that comes with the giving of oneself, all that one has that ultimately has been given as well what we ourselves create, to what is other. But it’s not about the getting back, because love can hurt more than anything else and it leaves one weak and vulnerable.

If you don’t like the idea of commands, think of it as a heads-up to how everything is structured such that there is eternal justice. Karma, if you like. If you want to know more, think Beatitudes.

 

[ynotzap]

As I said many times, I am ready.

Are you sure that you are ready? Do you ever doubt yourself? Is your approach a humble one? A humble prayer of request? Even a humble attitude of acknowledging that you have done wrong in your life and are ready for a real change of heart? Do you do a “soul search”

Solmyr:

This is much too vague. If I would grab a two-by-four and beat the living … ahem… daylight out of someone, it would be an act of will, but it would not be “love”. Please be more specific.

An emotion is composed of two parts, feeling, and thoughts eg. The emotion of love involves the apprehension of something good and desirable, that’s the thought , and when attained, the feelings of euphoria at the acquisition of the desired object of intense affection
Now when helping someone not motivated by any feeling, but by the conviction (thought) of doing the right thing and helping another (doing one something good) that is Christian love. It is even more noble to help another if one has to sacrifice his own desires in order to help another, even if it is his own life. This is the highest form of love. Feelings are the least consideration, as a matter of fact, feeling may even suffer in loving another. In this kind of love the human will is the sole player, and it is the noblest love.

Solmyr:

To feel sorry for someone is also a “feeling” .

Compassion for someone is a good feeling if it leads to action of the will by giving That is a human emotion. Just having compassion can be just feelings with no follow-up with action (will) If you wish one well, but do not do anything to help, that is not love.

Solmyr:

I have no problem with that. But the teaching is that “works without faith” is useless (just like faith without works.)

Works without faith can be good on the natural order, so it is not completely useless But works without faith on the supernatural order is useless. There is natural goodness, and supernatural goodness. Personally if one does good (works) in the natural order, I think that person is predisposing himself to receive the supernatural grace to do works in the supernatural order. Even in scripture, the works of good people reaped them a divine blessing. eg the widow giving the little that she had to the prophet and was blessed with a continual supply of sustenance

 

[Solmyr]

What informs your conscience? I am really interested.

My conscience developed during my formative years. My parents, the environment I lived in, which includes the church I attended (not a catholic one, I am afraid), all made a contribution. As I started to think for myself, I examined what I learned and found a lot of it reasonable, so I kept them - and discarded the rest.

It is that sort of connection with reality that the label “atheism” fails to describe.

Atheism has nothing to do with it. Nor does theism.

According to my understanding God is love.

Considering the yesterday’s atrocities in Brussels, I reject the definition or concept that “God is love”. A “love” which is not manifested in actions is a joke, not love. Allowing some crazy people to blow up others is not an act that I find compatible with “love”. And, please… pretty please, do not even think about bringing up “free will”.

You do not believe in God. Either you don’t believe in a God in which I also do not believe or you do not believe that everything exists as an act of Divine love, making such acts central to all creation.

I don’t accept any of this.

I’m not sure what your “or else” is about. Or else you won’t experience the true happiness and peace that comes with the giving of oneself, all that one has that ultimately has been given as well what we ourselves create, to what is other. But it’s not about the getting back, because love can hurt more than anything else and it leaves one weak and vulnerable.

The “or else” is the Christian / Catholic assertion that “if you disobey, you will be tortured forever”.

If you don’t like the idea of commands, think of it as a heads-up to how everything is structured such that there is eternal justice. Karma, if you like. If you want to know more, think Beatitudes.

None of that is acceptable.

 

[Solmyr]

Are you sure that you are ready?

Sure. I am intellectually ready. If God wishes to manifest himself to me, I will be happy to accept him.

Do you ever doubt yourself? Is your approach a humble one? A humble prayer of request? Even a humble attitude of acknowledging that you have done wrong in your life and are ready for a real change of heart? Do you do a “soul search”

What does humbleness have to do with anything?

Now when helping someone not motivated by any feeling, but by the conviction (thought) of doing the right thing and helping another (doing one something good) that is Christian love.

First, there is no dichotomy. Second, doing something out of altruism is NOT Christian “love”.

It is even more noble to help another if one has to sacrifice his own desires in order to help another, even if it is his own life. This is the highest form of love.

Maybe, or maybe not. I might sacrifice myself for a very few, selected individuals.

Works without faith can be good on the natural order, so it is not completely useless But works without faith on the supernatural order is useless. There is natural goodness, and supernatural goodness.

I reject the concept of “supernatural” goodness.

 

[Vico]

Faith + Love - > Works

We have a few interesting dogmas regarding works – that from them, for the just, comes and increase of grace and a claim to supernatural reward:

• Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
• Grace can be increased by good works.
• By his good works, the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God.
• The priest has the right and duty, according to the nature of the sins and the ability of the penitent, to impose salutary and appropriate works for satisfaction.
• Extra-sacramental penitential works, such as the performance of voluntary penitential practices and the patient bearing of trials sent by God, possess satisfactory value.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . None of that is acceptable.

The Beatitudes are unacceptable is what I just heard.
It is good have such a clear pronouncement of what atheism is about.
I was wrong to think you misguided.

 

[ynotzap]

Sure. I am intellectually ready. If God wishes to manifest himself to me, I will be happy to accept him.

But is your will in the same state, you seem to reject a lot of things. A dichotomy ?

Solmyr:

What does humbleness have to do with anything?

Every true and knowledgeable Christian knows that "God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud "and humility is ground upon which all virtue is based . Humility is to be grounded in the truth.

Solmyr:

First, there is no dichotomy. Second, doing something out of altruism is NOT Christian “love”.

Altruism means unselfish concern for the welfare of others, selflessness, opposed to egoism, and that is a Christian attribute (love)

Solmyr:

Maybe, or maybe not. I might sacrifice myself for a very few, selected individuals.

If you do, it is a step in the right direction.

Solmyr:

I reject the concept of “supernatural” goodness.

There you go, rejecting the very thing you say you are willing to receive, if God reveals Himself to you. God is Supernatural Goodness, that is a concept, and a reality, and His grace, the work of the Holy Spirit is also Supernatural Goodness. Faith is the gift of Supernatural Goodness.

 

[Solmyr]

But is your will in the same state, you seem to reject a lot of things. A dichotomy ?

My “will” is totally irrelevant. I am simply open to a possible evidence - which is never forthcoming.

Every true and knowledgeable Christian knows that "God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud "and humility is ground upon which all virtue is based . Humility is to be grounded in the truth.

But I am not a Christian.

Altruism means unselfish concern for the welfare of others, selflessness, opposed to egoism, and that is a Christian attribute (love)

Aha! So non-Christians cannot have unselfish concern for others? Because if they can, then this concern is not an “exclusive” Christian attribute. And Christianity is a latecomer, and people were not ALL selfish before it arrived on the scene, so you cannot declare altruism to be a “Christian” attribute.

There you go, rejecting the very thing you say you are willing to receive, if God reveals Himself to you.

That would be a whole different ballgame, precisely because of the revelation. I don’t believe in seven-headed, fire breathing dragons, but if one would manifest itself, I would accept it. Knowledge is not contingent on anything, except facts.

God is Supernatural Goodness, that is a concept, and a reality, and His grace, the work of the Holy Spirit is also Supernatural Goodness. Faith is the gift of Supernatural Goodness.

You know, especially in the times like these, when some terrorists blow up those poor civilians in Brussels - and they do it with God’s “implicit permission” (I would prefer to call it “tacit approval”), I am just looking at you and I wonder… where did you come form? God’s “love”, “goodness” and letting those events happen?

It is no wonder that there is no fruitful dialog between Christians and atheists. With such an abyss between the sides…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . You know, especially in the times like these, when some terrorists blow up those poor civilians in Brussels - and they do it with God’s “implicit permission” (I would prefer to call it “tacit approval”), I am just looking at you and I wonder… where did you come form? God’s “love”, “goodness” and letting those events happen? It is no wonder that there is no fruitful dialog between Christians and atheists. With such an abyss between the sides…

I would agree that it is most difficult to establish a dialogue with atheists. Like other fundamentalists, their view includes the abolition of all others.

Addressing the point made here, it must be remembered that Jesus conquered death. That said, death is no less a reality of this world. However, there is something more, something greater. Within that greater reality, Satan has no power. We may be threatened by death, feel coerced by those who would use it to control us to achieve their own ends. But, Jesus shows us another way, through love, to get through the suffering and begin a new life, to see a new quite different world. Let us begin by helping establish His Kingdom right here and now. Faith is action.

 

[MT1926]

God could, if he wanted to. I am not hostile to the idea. Do you know the old story about the boy scout? When he got home, his father asked him, if he did any good deeds that day? He answered: “Yes, father. With my 5 friends we helped an old man to cross a busy street.” His father said: “That is very nice… but why did you need your friends?” And kid answered: “Because the old bugger did not want to cross the street!”. Well, I am not resisting. But God is gun-shy I guess.

That was a good one. However, looking back over quite a few of your previous comments it appears to me that you are the “old bugger” in the story.

Lots of ways.

That’s good, could you choose 2 or 3 examples to share with me?

A very important and enlightening usage of words: “just knowledge”? In my world “knowledge” is FAR superior to “faith”. Hebrews 11:1… “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”… which translates to me “blind” faith (“what we do not see”).

That is good I am glad it works for you. In my world faith has always taken me much farther than knowledge ever could, I was always terrible at book learning.

But you still avoided to answer the all important question…if he did show himself to you would you end up with faith or just knowledge? What I am asking here is if God did appear before you would you be able to then have faith or would that only give you knowledge of his existence which would leave you with more questions that you could only believe if God also personally answered those for you as well?

I am already trying to be as good a person as I can be. I need no outside help for that, though it would be useful to have that “check-list”. Because I use my own conscience as my guideline. What else?

Didn’t you already state that “it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young.” I am not trying to be nit picky here but you come across like you needed no one to get to were you are now, when in all actuality God did play a role in the “good person” you are today.

I don’t understand. What is wrong with knowledge?

I thought this was a good example: Knowledge would turn me into the son that is only cutting the grass because I want to go swimming with my friends later. Let me try it another way. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. We need knowledge to sustain our existence on this planet. However, I think more advancements come from faith then knowledge. I like this quote by Thomas Edison when asked about the light bulb.
***“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ***
To try and fail at something 10,000 times yet keep going sounds like a man compelled by faith with knowledge in the background.

Please, don’t be sorry. I have no need for faith. Let me quote you the mathematician Laplace, who presented his book about the celestial movements of planets to Napoleon. Napoleon asked him, why he doesn’t mention God in his book? Laplace answered: “Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis”.

Ok so you have no need for faith because a French mathematician didn’t? We all have a need for faith, whether it is faith in God or faith in something else, I find it hard to believe you have no need for faith.

 

[ynotzap]

My “will” is totally irrelevant. I am simply open to a possible evidence - which is never forth coming

If I recall, in our dialogue with Blue Horizon, I gave you honest evidence, with witnesses to back me up about the the devil’s existence and activity. It is evident that you didn’t take it seriously. I offered, you refused, as you do with other issues. You even reject the possibilities. Is this an open mind?

Solmyr:

But I am not a Christian.

I was exposing you to christian belief in order that you might advance in understanding from the Christian perspective, but as usual, there is rejection

Solmyr:

Aha! So non-Christians cannot have unselfish concern for others? Because if they can, then this concern is not an “exclusive” Christian attribute. And Christianity is a latecomer, and people were not ALL selfish before it arrived on the scene, so you cannot declare altruism to be a “Christian” attribute.

Non-Christians can not have the unselfish concerns that true Christians have, because Christians love unconditionally, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, even die for them, and that is impossible to them without the supernatural grace of God, and the heroic virtue of love. Those without this grace, are selective with those they love, as you stated about those you might die for, and those you wouldn’t One is a natural virtue with limits, the other is supernatural virtue with no limits.

Solmyr:

That would be a whole different ballgame, precisely because of the revelation. I don’t believe in seven-headed, fire breathing dragons, but if one would manifest itself, I would accept it. Knowledge is not contingent on anything, except facts.

Do you believe in anything that is not a fact? Do you treat them as fact, when they are just theories or assumptions? It appears to me that you have in past arguments

Solmyr:

You know, especially in the times like these, when some terrorists blow up those poor civilians in Brussels - and they do it with God’s “implicit permission” (I would prefer to call it “tacit approval”), I am just looking at you and I wonder… where did you come form? God’s “love”, “goodness” and letting those events happen?

Tacit approval means “unspoken approval” saying that God approves of the murdering of the innocent because He allows it. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This shows your lack of understanding of Christianity because every christian knows that murder is a violation of the fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill” a law given by God, known naturally, and supernaturally. You have a closed mind when one tries to give you that understanding, rejection is your middle name. Did you ever consider that you blame the evil that men do to each other on God, as if they have no free will. If you do not understand Christianity you will never come to know the truth about why man’s inhumanity to man exists, and you will never reach it by your own reasoning.

Solmyr:

It is no wonder that there is no fruitful dialog between Christians and atheists. With such an abyss between the sides…

We have converted atheists on this forum, do you speak for them? How can one have a dialogue with another if the other has a “closed mind”, not even considering “the possibilities”? I see evidence of “self-contradiction” You claim to be open to possibilities, but I see you opposing them.

 

[ynotzap]

Solmyr, I have to agree with another, you are really “the bugger” in your joke!LOL

 

[Solmyr]

That was a good one. However, looking back over quite a few of your previous comments it appears to me that you are the “old bugger” in the story.

You are mistaken. I would be very glad to cross that street, if I would be given some evidence that there IS another side. There would be no need to “drag” me, I would be happy to go on my own. The trouble is that I have never met with anyone who could have mounted a good argument for the existence of the “other side”. As far as I am concerned we live on a Mobius strip, which has only one side.

That’s good, could you choose 2 or 3 examples to share with me?

Sure. The principle is simple. To ask for something that cannot be done for humans, even super-humans or any super-duper space aliens. For example to predict which numbers will be selected the next time someone hits the jackpot on the Powerball lottery - along with the actual date and the name and address of the family that gets the money - along with the list of their purchases. Since only God can “foresee” the future with 100% accuracy (after all for God there is NO future ), such a prediction would prove that God manifested himself to me. Naturally, God would warn me not act on that revelation, since acting on it (for example playing the revealed numbers) would invalidate the prediction.

But this is just one example. You can create as many as you want. Just use a scenario which is impossible for humans.

That is good I am glad it works for you. In my world faith has always taken me much farther than knowledge ever could, I was always terrible at book learning.

Why do you think that knowledge only comes from “book learning”?

But you still avoided to answer the all important question…if he did show himself to you would you end up with faith or just knowledge? What I am asking here is if God did appear before you would you be able to then have faith or would that only give you knowledge of his existence which would leave you with more questions that you could only believe if God also personally answered those for you as well?

Sorry, I thought that the answer was obvious. If I would “know” something, there would be no place for “faith”. I am using the word “faith” in the biblical sense (Hebrews 11:1).

Didn’t you already state that “it all comes from my upbringing, my parents, my family, and the rest, even the church I attended when I was young.” I am not trying to be nit picky here but you come across like you needed no one to get to were you are now, when in all actuality God did play a role in the “good person” you are today.

If so, then God would have been participating in the “brainwashing” process, something that God - allegedly - never does. Because the process of education, teaching good habits IS a form of “brainwashing” - in the very good sense. Forget the negative connotations.

I thought this was a good example: Knowledge would turn me into the son that is only cutting the grass because I want to go swimming with my friends later. Let me try it another way. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. We need knowledge to sustain our existence on this planet. However, I think more advancements come from faith then knowledge. I like this quote by Thomas Edison when asked about the light bulb.
***“I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ***
To try and fail at something 10,000 times yet keep going sounds like a man compelled by faith with knowledge in the background.

Please check out the word “faith” in the next paragraph. Your example is pretty good. If you would do the chores for getting something is return, that allows you to develop good attitudes, which will become “a habit” as time goes on. That is how we all learn, from both positive and negative reinforcement. And we know that positive reinforcements are much more effective than the negative ones. Obviously we are on a higher level than the animals in the circus, but all the trainers know that giving some small reward is preferable to punishing a mistake. But the principle still holds for humans, too.

We all have a need for faith, whether it is faith in God or faith in something else, I find it hard to believe you have no need for faith.

Be careful with the usage of words. “Faith” is a very much abused word. As I said above, I have no need for “faith” as it was defined the Hebrews 11:1… to quote: “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.” Which describes **BLIND **faith". The words “we do not see” is a synonym for “there is no evidence”.

 

[Vico]

…
A very important and enlightening usage of words: “just knowledge”? In my world “knowledge” is FAR superior to “faith”. Hebrews 11:1… “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”… which translates to me “blind” faith (“what we do not see”)…

Catechism 156

…God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.30

 

[Solmyr]

Catechism 156

…God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit."29 Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.30

I am sorry that you wasted your time and effort. I have stated previously that references to the “holy scriptures”, the “sacred tradition” and the “magisterium” have no convincing value. Now I can also add the catechism to the list. By the way, this is not playing “hard to catch”. The same principles apply to any claim, not just the religious ones. I am an equal opportunity skeptic.

If God would manifest himself to me, I would know that he exists. I would not need to rely on the testimony of other people. After all the so-called testimonial “evidence” is far-far inferior to direct, observable, physical, real evidence. And God could manifest himself in a physical form, if he chose to do it - along with the convincing evidence that he is the “real McCoy”.

I gave an example to MT1926 of how God could convince me of his existence. So the “ball” is in his court.