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jimmy
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Edwin, I am sorry about that one post above. It was a disrespectful so I deleted it.
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slinky1882
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Maybe not rules but Commandments. But Grace really is the core and predecessor of both Faith and works. Although Christ’s Sacrafice on the Cross redeemed mankind, we must still cooperate with God’s Grace to obtain salvation. (I think Jimmy understands this and edwin may as well. Just wanted to reiterate the primacy of Grace in Salvation.) Thanks and God Bless.
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deb1
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The problem I see is that Edwin is assuming that Catholics have works without faith. I am not Catholic yet, so correct me if I am wrong. Catholics believe that without Jesus’ death on the cross and his resurrection we would be doomed. Faith in Christ and God’s freely given grace save us. Catholics also believe that salvation is a process, something that you grow in everyday. We have to cooperate with that grace, though, in order to grow. It seems to me that sometimes Protestants and Catholics use different words for nearly the same things.
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Chipper
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Edwin says:
To say faith is “First”, is like putting yourself before God. Your “Faith” means nothing, if there is no “Grace of God”. So first is the Grace of God. Faith cannot be first.
In fact first came sin, then came salvation through Jesus Christ. So once again faith cannot be in first place.
In our life we all sin first, then we come to accept Jesus. How de we come to accept Jesus? By doing a work first. We strive and strive and study and then finally one day we accept his offer.
So once again faith is second.
I find it hard to believe, that you or most anyone else, would take the faith he is born with and lead a sinless life totally through faith. This would be faith first, works second. But in practicality your works came first, by your strife, then came your faith.
In conclusion “Faith first”, is not a reality.
Calvin
Why do protestants always get mixed up with “First Place” “Second Place” and “Third Place”, and so on and so on?
To say faith is “First”, is like putting yourself before God. Your “Faith” means nothing, if there is no “Grace of God”. So first is the Grace of God. Faith cannot be first.
In fact first came sin, then came salvation through Jesus Christ. So once again faith cannot be in first place.
In our life we all sin first, then we come to accept Jesus. How de we come to accept Jesus? By doing a work first. We strive and strive and study and then finally one day we accept his offer.
So once again faith is second.
I find it hard to believe, that you or most anyone else, would take the faith he is born with and lead a sinless life totally through faith. This would be faith first, works second. But in practicality your works came first, by your strife, then came your faith.
In conclusion “Faith first”, is not a reality.
Calvin
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miguel_delgado
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Dear Friends:
Here Is The Bible Answer: (1st Pardon My English And If I Err Tell Me)
James 2 14,18 What Dows It Profit My Bretheren If A Man Says He Has Faith But Has Not Works? Can His Faith Save Him?? If A Brother Or Sister Is Ill-clad And In Lack Of Dayly Food And One Of You Says To Them “go In Peace, Be Warmed And Filled” Without Giving Them The Things Needed For The Body What Does It Profit? So Faith By Itself If It Has No Works Is Dead…
And In Verse 19 Said. “even The Demons Belive”
So Here Is My Question: The Demons Belive, Then Why Are They Not Save??? Only Faith Saves??? Who Is Right, Sola Fide Or Sola Scriptura???
Here Is The Bible Answer: (1st Pardon My English And If I Err Tell Me)
James 2 14,18 What Dows It Profit My Bretheren If A Man Says He Has Faith But Has Not Works? Can His Faith Save Him?? If A Brother Or Sister Is Ill-clad And In Lack Of Dayly Food And One Of You Says To Them “go In Peace, Be Warmed And Filled” Without Giving Them The Things Needed For The Body What Does It Profit? So Faith By Itself If It Has No Works Is Dead…
And In Verse 19 Said. “even The Demons Belive”
So Here Is My Question: The Demons Belive, Then Why Are They Not Save??? Only Faith Saves??? Who Is Right, Sola Fide Or Sola Scriptura???
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miguel_delgado
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edwinG
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Hi Fieryjades,
I am back at this thread and I want to add to my previous answer.
You possibly could say the sinner’s prayer because it was a set rule with which you must compy to arrive at where you want to be, so you follow the rule.
You say the sinner’s prayer, because you believe it would do some good. Belief not follow by appropriate action is not true belief. Faith and then action.
Faith in the prayer and then the prayer.
Walk in love
edwinG
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Lisa4Catholics
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Edwin I do not know WHAT you thought you heard but I have NEVER heard of 2,000 rules on EWTN!
If you are not saying we worship Mary,you are in some other way trying to say we aren’t really Christians:nope: Stop!I believe in GOD the Father Almighty,Creator of Heaven and Earth,I believe in Jesus Christ His only son,our Lord,who was conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT born of the Virgin Mary,He suffered under pontious Pilate was crucified died and was buried he descended to the dead,on the third day He rose again,He ascended in to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father,from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead,I beleive in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church,the communion of the saints ,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.AMEN
Now what do you not agree with Edwin?
If you are not saying we worship Mary,you are in some other way trying to say we aren’t really Christians:nope: Stop!I believe in GOD the Father Almighty,Creator of Heaven and Earth,I believe in Jesus Christ His only son,our Lord,who was conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT born of the Virgin Mary,He suffered under pontious Pilate was crucified died and was buried he descended to the dead,on the third day He rose again,He ascended in to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father,from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead,I beleive in the Holy Spirit the Holy Catholic Church,the communion of the saints ,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.AMENNow what do you not agree with Edwin?
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eddie
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The blessed Trinity has three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and of course God the Holy Spirit! Father and Son are both Males hence the pronoun, He or Him but also it was the Holy Spirit whose visit to our Holy Mother conceived our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So is it right and correct to say that God Himself, beyond gender has always revealed Himself to us as Man, God the Father and God the Son?
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Huiou_Theou
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Faith is either nothing or it is a work which earns nothing.
Whatever faith is, (the substance of hope), it is a gift.
If Someone has an expensive item that no one in a particular neighborhood could buy, and they place it on the front porch with a sign that says ‘FREE’. It is clearly a gift. Very clearly a gift.
Yet, no one gets that free gift without doing a work.
They must pick it up: hence they work for it.
But anyone who received such a gift and then had the conceit to say
‘I earned it’ because I worked for it! is a fool.
And the owner of the gift would be justified in saying that it is free, but not for you.
Edwin, Faith is a petty work. You must believe.
Whatever faith is, (the substance of hope), it is a gift.
If Someone has an expensive item that no one in a particular neighborhood could buy, and they place it on the front porch with a sign that says ‘FREE’. It is clearly a gift. Very clearly a gift.
Yet, no one gets that free gift without doing a work.
They must pick it up: hence they work for it.
But anyone who received such a gift and then had the conceit to say
‘I earned it’ because I worked for it! is a fool.
And the owner of the gift would be justified in saying that it is free, but not for you.
Edwin, Faith is a petty work. You must believe.
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edwinG
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Hi jax8686,
Could you explain to me how I dont follow my faith.
Yes without love all is lost. Faith is a powerful tool, but if you operate it without love you have no part with Christ. Faith not operated in obedience is lawlessness. But we are not discussing love. We are discussing faith and works.
You have given a list of works: accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, forgiving others, loving others, choosing to be baptised, but I see these as the action which follows the faith. If I didn’t have faith in the word, would I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. First comes the faith and then the action to prove the professed faith.
The question is does a person do these things through faith or because of obedience to some rules.
When your works are done because of faith , your faith grows and you can do more and more. Eventually if one keeps pressing into Christ and keeps inviting Christ further and further into our life, not holding back, then huge blessings follow. The desire is always to do His will,but to be chosen for His finer work, as the apostles were is the the ultimate. I guess the compassion in all of us means we would like to be able to heal by the laying on of hands.
Who among us will perserve in faith to this end.
Did Paul doubt later in his years
I Timothy 3:9 " Holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience."
Acts 24:15 “I have hope in God, whichthey themselves alsso accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.”
James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord. 8 He is a double minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats because he does not eat from faith, for whatever is not from faith is sin.
walk in love
edwinG
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edwinG
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Hi jimmy,
This is exactly the point. Faith grows by being exercised. We are all given a small amount of faith, but then we have to exercise it. Exercising it involves working according to what the Spirit wants us to do. If you have faith it is impossible not to have works.
You can have works by the ton and no faith.
If you have faith you will pray and you will repent, because the Holy Spirit will lead you to these acts.
Faith is not needed to follow rules.
If you believe in the rules then your belief is in rules not in God. Choose.
2000 Rules or Follow the Holy Spirit
walk in love
edwinG
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edwinG
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Hi jimmy,
Yes we are agreed. I dont understand your use of sacrifice. Can you explain this to me please.
walk in love
edwinG
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edwinG
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Hi jimmy,
James 5:16 “Confess your trepasses to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”
What a wonderful post so in keeping with the word. I feel sure you are edified by it and your post makes my heart soft for you. I have seen many such repentant posts on this site and it surely is a saving grace. I too have found myself wrong in some previous post and had to swallow and say I was wrong and I know it is His test and His grace which allows us to have victory.
I would like to add how beautiful it is to see people confessing to one another. Christ says " Is it easier to say , " Your sins are forgiven you or arise and walk" Forgiveness through confession to one another is healing, you can feel it in yourself, healing to all parties concerned.
If the confession is done to a priest, I feel some of the benefit is lost. Say in this instance ,you jimmy, instead of confessing here, did it in the presence of a priest, the effect would be limited. I for one would be unaware and other people reading these posts would not have gained from your great example and your courage.
walk in love
edwinG
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slinky1882
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Edwin,
As asked before, where do you get the “2000 rules” from??? No one on this forum is denying the that Faith and works go together. Grace comes first as God’s free gift. I have a question related to your last line. Do you believe that Truth is universal (always true), necessary (has to be true) and objective (reveals something about objective reality)??? Traditional morality says that some acts were always wrong, for everybody, in all situations and in all times. (i.e. like murder, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.). Can God change His Mind and say that murder ceases to be wrong at some point in the future??? God theoretically can change His Mind, but He won’t. How is one to know how to “Follow the Holy Spirit” in timeless Truth??? Surely, you are not claiming that all can be derived from Scripture (Sola Scriptura) or Sola Fidei. If so, why are there so many Protestant Denominations??? Or why do some churches condemn abortion and other do not (and there are many other examples of this)??? Curious how anyone can “Follow the Holy Spirit” without Divinely protected authoritative help. Thanks and God Bless.
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slinky1882
Guest
Ahhhh, but the Church teaches to seek the forgiveness of the individual harmed and God’s forgiveness. When we sin against our brothers and sisters, the sin fronts God as well. We are to seek the forgiveness of both. And what are we to do when we harm a stranger we are never to see again, what then??? Please see the below tract, for the Scriptural evidence for the Sacrament of Confession and an explanation. Should you have any questions do ask. Thanks and God Bless.
catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp
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TheGarg
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Beautiful, and since you feel this way, Why do prots think that you can seperate the two for salvation???..
Christ Himself said “Faith without works is DEAD”…because if you seperate the two, niether can exist…??
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Lisa4Catholics
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And Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on them and said",Go,forgive mens sins:nope: whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them:nope: Whose sins you hold bound are held bound."He was Talking to the apostles Jesus’ Bishops who layed on hands and appointed priests Edwin
He did not give the power to absolve sins to everyone.:nope:
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edwinG
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Hi Chipper,
Chipper to me means " happy". Is that what it means?
You have used a funny point of view. Our discussion is what comes first between faith and works, but you seem to have extended the range. I guess then God comes first.
How do we come to accept Jesus? No not and never by works. God forbids it.
We accept Jesus because the Holy Spirit leads us to Him. We dont even get into Christ’s presence by our own works. God wont let us stand up and say, I DID. In all things, we are reliant on Him.
Walk in love
edwinG
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edwinG
Guest
miguel delgado:
To the second part of your question first. Yes the demons believe but they have no obedience to His will. This is what I keep stressing, Faith requires the work of obedience to His will. Otherwise it is lawlessness. Just like the demons, who believe but do what they want to do, which is follow whatever they desire or what they think is good for them. Only the Spirit knows what is the good and perfect will of God. See Samson, who wanted a Philistine for a wife, but His parents wanted him to choose a jew for a wife. His parents did not realise that Samson was in tune with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Now if you transpose that to the Roman Catholic catechism do you think this cathchism would lead a person to marry a non catholic. Rules like the catechism are great guidelines but people mustn’t allow these rules to bind the Holy Spirit. The rules should only be guidelines.
The first part of your post simply refers to those who claim faith. This is a way to see if their claims are true. So when a person claims faith, look to their life and their works. Then you can tell if they have faith. BUT never look to works to see if the person has faith.
walk in love
edwinG
Hi miguel delgado,
To the second part of your question first. Yes the demons believe but they have no obedience to His will. This is what I keep stressing, Faith requires the work of obedience to His will. Otherwise it is lawlessness. Just like the demons, who believe but do what they want to do, which is follow whatever they desire or what they think is good for them. Only the Spirit knows what is the good and perfect will of God. See Samson, who wanted a Philistine for a wife, but His parents wanted him to choose a jew for a wife. His parents did not realise that Samson was in tune with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Now if you transpose that to the Roman Catholic catechism do you think this cathchism would lead a person to marry a non catholic. Rules like the catechism are great guidelines but people mustn’t allow these rules to bind the Holy Spirit. The rules should only be guidelines.
The first part of your post simply refers to those who claim faith. This is a way to see if their claims are true. So when a person claims faith, look to their life and their works. Then you can tell if they have faith. BUT never look to works to see if the person has faith.
walk in love
edwinG
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