Faith

[edwinG]

LtTony:

Thanks, edwin.

I read your reply a couple times. Regarding “Peter vs Thomas”… I think I read you loud and clear. I also liked the last few paragraphs of your reply post: it sounds as though we have walked a similar path in many respects. I appreciate you sharing your observations. I certainly will contemplate them more.

It is unlikely, however, that there will be further contemplation on the middle portions of the reply. I am satisfied that we may just speak a different language in some regards. For example, I am confused by “you are mistaken that faith makes it (works) a simple walk in the park.” When I referred to our own crosses to bear, I was saying exactly the opposite: that works can be difficult, and necessarily so. Maybe you were addressing Huiou. No matter.

But again, thanks for your observations. In my struggles I’m starting to try to listen more intently; communicating isn’t just talking. Also, don’t sweat the little stuff.

God bless you,
Jim

Hi Jim,
Yes I must have been talking to the birds or something.
I agree, exercising our faith is not a walk in the park. Many works are very easy, one just has to decide to accept the challenge to do them.
Take an imaginary example. You are going on a holiday in 8 weeks time and you have saved the money and it is in the bank. Then you think Christ wants you to give the money to some appropriate cause, maybe the tsunami. Now giving the money is easy, it doesnt involve hard physical labour or some difficult mental concentration but making the decision to give is the difficult part. IT depends on our faith. Do you really believe that God is watching you and if you give it Chirst will send some back with interest before the 8 weeks are up. Or maybe Christ does not want you to go and you want His will in your life, knowing that whatever the outcome is it is in your best interests. You have confidence He will bless you whatever the outcome.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[LSK]

Edwin, you are splitting hairs.

Holy Scripture tells us that faith without works is dead. You asked if we had such little faith in the Holy Spirit that a man of faith would be lead to sit in his livingroom all day and drink beer and that makes no sense. Of course God would not lead someone to do that - but to think that men of faith never commit sin, fall away or otherwise fall short is arrogance. One must have faith, one must demonstrate that faith through action and one must be mindful of the sin of arrogance. James 2:24 says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead. Galations 5:6 says that the only thing that counts is faith working in love. 1 Corinthians 13:2 states that faith without LOVE is NOTHING. Jesus says “If you love me, keep my commandments” - in other words, DO do not just stand there claiming “I have faith. I have faith” expect to be saved.

You speak to us as though you are compelled to save us from ourselves. You don’t. We are ok. Thank you for caring. Just be thankful for the Church which gathered the Holy Scripture writings into One Book (Bible) and, I would suggest, that you read the Catechism. You can do so online. It might surprise you.

 

[LSK]

God is a BANKER???

 

[reen12]

Hi, slinky1882,

The kitchen renovation is done!!

“Wrong kind of unity.” What do I mean by that?

If it is posited that only unity under the Roman
Pontiff bridge-builder…oh, you’re good, slinky ]
constitues the unity Christ prayed for, then it
is clear that, advancing the Church’s claim that
genuine unity can only be achieved when this is
fully accomplished, is the only path to take in
this regard.

My thought is that Christians present a united front
to the secular world. Catholics and Evangelicals
working together to oppose abortion, is one
example.

BTW, I think you’d make a fine apologist or
catechist. *

God bless you, slinky1882. I hope that your
final are going well.

reen*

 

[reen12]

Hi, edwinG,

Thanks for your responses. That is a unique
view of “scattered” and I see how you arrived
at that interpretation.
Thank you for sharing your love of God, edwinG.
May God watch over you in your life in Thailand,

Kindest regards,
reen

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

TheGarg:

NO i can’t give you an example of a seperation of faith and works, that is my whole point, but the protestant world never promotes the works as “needed for salvation”, which is unscriptural.

If you can’t seperate the two then they are both necassary for salvation.

EX: If i say “Lord, Lord”, and then deny my brethern, what God commands me to do for them[charity, good works, witness], i will surely burn in Hell…do you disagree.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

IF pauls Faith were all that were necassary, then why would he work on them in fear and trembling…Faith is not a gaurantee for salvation, but what you “do”[action] with that faith…salvation is a

**life long process…can you deny this?/**QUOTE]
Hi TheGarg,
Yes and No. Firstly No
I cant deny it because in those instances when one is baptised, sealed, at an early age, then even though they may not be called and live a life of disregard, this is similar to my circumstances, for the majority of their life, when called, by God’s grace and love and strength we obey. This may be from our teens, 20 , 40, 60, 70’s etc. I do think that the bonus of being called early means you live a life of abundance earlier and you also have less chronic illnesses which are the Amalekites and Jebusites.I am constantly being healed of whatever comes around but the chronic stuff I picked up before being called is hanging on.
Note the parable of the man bringing workers to the fields and paying them all the same irrespective of the time they started work. People are accepted into the kingdom at any stage.
A person may be called like the man on the cross. Like the above example I dont call it a life long process either.
In summary, I just trust in His strength. I really think that like Noah it is pretty hard to get away from God if He is searching for you. To me the question is, am I from God. Well, I know that answer is Yes for me but maybe for many it is not yes
All are welcome.
I dont think everyone answers the call.
I dont think everyone is seed and is searched for. Seed is always saved, God wont leave Himself behind. Think about the word redemption. We can only be redemed if we belong to Him.

walk in love
edwinG

I agree, it does not matter WHEN you have Faith[the decision to accept Grace], but after you accept it, you had better honor it with works that parallel the teachings of christ…that is my point.

Salvation is not a garuantee because semeone is baptized, at any age, or because they “accept Christ into their heart” at any age…Salvation occurs after Grace, Faith, and works have been fufilled.

the extreme scenario where a man accepts christ just before he dies, does not apply, obviously he had not time to do any works for the Lord…example:
an athiest skydiver chute doesn’t open, and he ask Jesus into his heart, asking forgiveness for all his sins before he splats on the ground, then I am sure IF he was sincere[God will know if he was joking ] he will surely be saved.

but if you have the ability to live Gods will, you had better do it, for, as it clearly states in the Gospel, you will be judged by your works.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Edwin,
I couldn’t fit twelve teeth in a thimble, and I am not sure what you mean by all the pain can fit in a thimble.

It’s been over 12 hours … still waiting.

grow in love edwin.

 

[edwinG]

jimmy:

When I said sacrifice, I was basically saying that we can not both live our lives how we want and be saved. Often we have the urge to do what is against God. We have to sacrifice and do what God desires us to do.

Hi jimmy,
Yes , Jimmy, I agree with you wholeheartedly. That is the complete key and by doing that our lives are filled with an abundance so that we can devote more and more time to lovingly help people here on earth and be a servant of His.
The world belongs to satan, He is the prince of this world and we are born to satan to sin. satan has us locked in, if you like behind gates, but those gates wont prevail against the word of God, Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour.
John the Baptist set up the kingdom of heaven and that is why Jesus said Matthew11:12 " and from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force"
Until now , means that before Jesus was empowered anyone wanting to enter into the kingdom of heaven through John the Baptist’s teaching had to suffer violence.
Jesus changed that, He crushed satan to make the path easy.
How do we follow Gods will. Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Do this deliberately, seek His will and let joy and His grace abound in you.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

LSK:

Edwin, you are splitting hairs.

Holy Scripture tells us that faith without works is dead. You asked if we had such little faith in the Holy Spirit that a man of faith would be lead to sit in his livingroom all day and drink beer and that makes no sense. Of course God would not lead someone to do that - but to think that men of faith never commit sin, fall away or otherwise fall short is arrogance. One must have faith, one must demonstrate that faith through action and one must be mindful of the sin of arrogance. James 2:24 says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:26 says that faith without works is dead. Galations 5:6 says that the only thing that counts is faith working in love. 1 Corinthians 13:2 states that faith without LOVE is NOTHING. Jesus says “If you love me, keep my commandments” - in other words, DO do not just stand there claiming “I have faith. I have faith” expect to be saved.

You speak to us as though you are compelled to save us from ourselves. You don’t. We are ok. Thank you for caring. Just be thankful for the Church which gathered the Holy Scripture writings into One Book (Bible) and, I would suggest, that you read the Catechism. You can do so online. It might surprise you.

Hi LSK,
It was not my post that introduced a man of faith drinking beer all day and being saved. I said that a man of faith could not live his life like that. He may be drinking beer all day when he accepted Jesus Christ into his life but over time he will find the strength to give up ALL his weaknesses as he seeks God through Christ.
I have never maintained that a person living his life by faith is free from sin, but if they are earnest then by the power of the Holy Spirit, first the addiction and then the habit of sins will be broken.
Never have I claimed that anyone can just stand there and say I have faith and therefore I am saved. You havent been understanding my posts to say that. For you I will repeat, You must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is not doing nothing. Please try.
You can memorise every catholic writing that was ever written. That means that God has blessed you with a good memory. It is of now value if it just resides in your memory.
You quoted " Jesus says " If you love me keep my commandments" and I say, Jesus commands you to love one another. I say to keep His commandments you have to follow the Holy Spirit who knows God’s will, for He is the Spirit of God.
Is that too hard to understand. Jesus commands it. Obey. Obey His will. His will is expressed to you moment by moment by the Holy Spirit. If you think the Holy Spirit is directing you to do something against His word, dont do it. That is one of the reasons for the Word. THe Word is spiritual food for the reborn spirit living in you. Feed the spirit the word, obey the Holy Spirit.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Huiou Theou:

Edwin,
I couldn’t fit twelve teeth in a thimble, and I am not sure what you mean by all the pain can fit in a thimble.

It’s been over 12 hours … still waiting.

grow in love edwin.

Hi Huiou Theou,
I meant the pain in my life would all fit in a thimble. Some people have such painful lives. My life is so easy. I am not complaining because I have such and easy life but I have sorrow for those whose life is so painful.
Christ is coming. He is our teacher. It is His yoke which is gentle because He is lowly.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

TheGarg:

edwinG:

I agree, it does not matter WHEN you have Faith[the decision to accept Grace], but after you accept it, you had better honor it

with works that parallel the teachings of christ…that is my point.

Salvation is not a garuantee because semeone is baptized, at any age, or because they “accept Christ into their heart” at any age…Salvation occurs after Grace, Faith, and works have been fufilled.

the extreme scenario where a man accepts christ just before he dies, does not apply, obviously he had not time to do any works for the Lord…example:
an athiest skydiver chute doesn’t open, and he ask Jesus into his heart, asking forgiveness for all his sins before he splats on the ground, then I am sure IF he was sincere[God will know if he was joking ] he will surely be saved.

but if you have the ability to live Gods will, you had better do it, for, as it clearly states in the Gospel, you will be judged by your works.
Hi TheGarg,
Almost in complete agreement.
See the letters I have made bold in your post.
The works are not only of your choosing. You have the freedom in Christ to do good works BUT doing His will, found by following the Holy Spirit are the true works.
We are living in a world controlled by the prince of darkness. When we accept Chirst we become servants and He gives us work to do to help Him. Christ wants to work through us. He cant work through us if we dont listen to the Holy Spirit. If we dont listen all we do is mark time, striving for our own salvation, which will happened automatically by following His will anyhow.
Can you see that as servants or workers of His we need to do as He asks. You cant look in a book and say, uummhh today is the 28th April, what does Christ want me to do today, Oh He wants me to go to the park and rescue a child that is too scared to climb down a tree because a dog is there. No , to do that work, you need to listen to the Holy Spirit. These are true works.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hi, edwinG,

Thanks for your responses. That is a unique
view of “scattered” and I see how you arrived
at that interpretation.
Thank you for sharing your love of God, edwinG.
May God watch over you in your life in Thailand,

Kindest regards,
reen

Hi reen,
I found all your posts edifying. Thank you also so much for asking God to watch over me.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

reen12:

Hi, edwinG,

Tell me what “scattering the flock” is, OK?

I’ve been trying to negotiate Jesus praying:
“That they all may be one, Heavenly Father,
as You and I are one,” with the existence
of the various denominations.

The tentative conclusion I’m coming to…and
mind you, *very *tentative…is, are we pouring
energy into trying to achieve the wrong concept
of “unity.”

What “confession” can *all *Christians make?

Christ has died.
Christ is risen,
Christ will come again.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.
We are justified by the death of Jesus.
We are saved by Jesus [set aside *faith/works

for a moment*.*]
God is Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are the inspired Word of God.
The Lord’s Prayer…surely we can all say this in unity.

Yes, understanding does build strong bridges.

Maybe the Christian thing to do is to all meet
in the middle of the bridge to discuss ways that
we can work together to alleviate the suffering of
all human beings, agreeing to tell people the Good
News that the Messiah has come and proclaiming
Jesus is Lord.

What do you think, edwinG?

reen
Hi reen,
Forget denominations. Denominations are for personality types. We dont surrender our personality.
The unity is in the body of Christ, to us here on earth, a spiritual unity, living in Christ who lives in God who lives in Christ all living together as one. Now everyone has work to do and we receive our daily work from the Holy Spirit. We are His ambassadors here on earth to save souls, by spreading the word (not the denomination) so that others may believe and thus they too can follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and so on.
Our work is not to entrench ourselves into a defensive denominational position and insult. Our work is constant communion with the Holy Spirit and obedience to His word.Only He has the wisdom , we are on earth to do His work. On this work we will be judged.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

TheGarg:

NO i can’t give you an example of a seperation of faith and works, that is my whole point,

?

Hi TheGarg,
The Holy Spirit leads and we are to obey. We have often read in the bible that God has said, “but you didnt find my paths”.
I am positive that in my life, I have missed opportunities of work given to me by the Holy Spirit. When you miss an opportunity a bell doesnt ring. These missed opportunities are a very good example of the separation of faith and works. You have faith and follow Him,but on this occasion you did not do the work asked. Maybe you were too tired. I mean the Holy Spirit doesnt wait until you are happy and all zingged up. He issues orders in any season. So like Jonah, for various reasons we disobey, or miss the call. This is a separation of faith and works, but just because we miss, God does not condemn us immediately. He is long suffering and full of mercy and everlovingkindness. The work was not done but our faith is still intact for the while.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

TheGarg:

Hi TheGarg,
Almost in complete agreement.
See the letters I have made bold in your post.
The works are not only of your choosing. You have the freedom in Christ to do good works BUT doing His will, found by following the Holy Spirit are the true works.
We are living in a world controlled by the prince of darkness. When we accept Chirst we become servants and He gives us work to do to help Him. Christ wants to work through us. He cant work through us if we dont listen to the Holy Spirit. If we dont listen all we do is mark time, striving for our own salvation, which will happened automatically by following His will anyhow.
Can you see that as servants or workers of His we need to do as He asks. You cant look in a book and say, uummhh today is the 28th April, what does Christ want me to do today, Oh He wants me to go to the park and rescue a child that is too scared to climb down a tree because a dog is there. No , to do that work, you need to listen to the Holy Spirit. These are true works.
walk in love
edwinG

I am in complete agreement with you now edwin.

I didn’t to imply to seperate Christ and the Holy Spirit if I did. When I say “works”, i am talking just about “doing God’s will”[ie. feeding the hunger, vistiing the imprisoned, etc…]. I didn’t assume that you would assume I could have meant secualar work, like walking the dog. but in essence, anything GOOD that you do, is a Work of the Holy Spirit.

haha, it would be easier if God provided us a list of to do’s lol…
but then we would not need prayer, meditation, or self-examination to find out His will, which are all works of the Holy Spirit in and of themself.
When you own a dog, you are responsible for its good health and happiness, that is your burden as its master. to keep it locked up and never give it attention would be cruel. It may be small, but it is still a good work, which is necassary since the you are now responsible, by your own choice, to own the dog.

I guess the best way to say it is as the Bible says,

"I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

ps. these are great scriptures to read, I am reading them right now, and they illustrate perfectly how Salvation is a Life long process. [note Life is capitalized to signify since baptism ]

peace of the Lord be with you my Brother in Christ!

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

Hi TheGarg,
The Holy Spirit leads and we are to obey. We have often read in the bible that God has said, “but you didnt find my paths”.
I am positive that in my life, I have missed opportunities of work given to me by the Holy Spirit. When you miss an opportunity a bell doesnt ring. These missed opportunities are a very good example of the separation of faith and works. You have faith and follow Him,but on this occasion you did not do the work asked. Maybe you were too tired. I mean the Holy Spirit doesnt wait until you are happy and all zingged up. He issues orders in any season. So like Jonah, for various reasons we disobey, or miss the call. This is a separation of faith and works, but just because we miss, God does not condemn us immediately. He is long suffering and full of mercy and everlovingkindness.** The work was not done but our faith is still intact for the while**.
walk in love
edwinG

I agree, and I have stressed so. In my equation for Salvation i defined Faith and Works as two different, but equal variables. We do miss works, when we sin, that is usually because we didn’t listen to the Holy Spirit. Obeying God’s Law is a work also. Our outward obediance to God is a silent ministry to others, that is why our actions in any given situation are critical.

Monkey see monkey do, for a simply analogy If a group of kids see me steal a car, i have scandalized them against God’s Law and will be held accountable…

The bolded statement above is True, but we must still atone for this sin, which is why we confess our sins, be it to a priest, or to God himself. Our repentance determines wheter or not God condemns us for our “miss”.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

However God is our Almighty Father and nothing about Him is “petty”. And His wisdom for our salvation which is in Christ and obedience to His will, can not be lined up with “petty.”

Then you appear to claim that there is nothing petty at all, ever, for everything was made by God. And we have caught sight of his invisible deity through the things that are made. Yes, God can be seen in the smallest speck of dirt to someone who is looking.
Though most of us wouldn’t wish to wallow in that dirt, because we would become dirty. It’s a petty point, but nothing about God is dirty!

Oh how confusing your argument is to me, Edwin.

If you really understand what I am saying then why do we disagree?

May the Lord shine upon you.
Wallow in love, Edwin.

 

[edwinG]

TheGarg:

edwinG:

I am in complete agreement with you now edwin.

I didn’t to imply to seperate Christ and the Holy Spirit if I did. When I say “works”, i am talking just about “doing God’s will”[ie. feeding the hunger, vistiing the imprisoned, etc…]. I didn’t assume that you would assume I could have meant secualar work, like walking the dog. but in essence, anything GOOD that you do, is a Work of the Holy Spirit.

haha, it would be easier if God provided us a list of to do’s lol…
but then we would not need prayer, meditation, or self-examination to find out His will, which are all works of the Holy Spirit in and of themself.
When you own a dog, you are responsible for its good health and happiness, that is your burden as its master. to keep it locked up and never give it attention would be cruel. It may be small, but it is still a good work, which is necassary since the you are now responsible, by your own choice, to own the dog.

I guess the best way to say it is as the Bible says,

"I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

ps. these are great scriptures to read, I am reading them right now, and they illustrate perfectly how Salvation is a Life long process. [note Life is capitalized to signify since baptism ]

peace of the Lord be with you my Brother in Christ!

Hi TheGarg,
Thanks for the great post and the great scripture. Yes we are in agreement.
Do you think that there are two classes of people. All welcome of course. Seed and not seed. Seed will have to come, or like Jonah be dragged in. Those who are not seed have greater flexibility, less responsibility, and less opportunity to the places of honor. I look to your comment.
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Huiou Theou:

Then you appear to claim that there is nothing petty at all, ever, for everything was made by God. And we have caught sight of his invisible deity through the things that are made. Yes, God can be seen in the smallest speck of dirt to someone who is looking.
Though most of us wouldn’t wish to wallow in that dirt, because we would become dirty. It’s a petty point, but nothing about God is dirty!

Oh how confusing your argument is to me, Edwin.

If you really understand what I am saying then why do we disagree?

May the Lord shine upon you.
Wallow in love, Edwin.

Hi Huiou Theou,
I hope I am completely wrong but you appear to have a mocking attitude.
He will notice this, for He knows what is in all hearts. If you are mocking I feel sorry for you and I also fear for you.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Edwin,

I have done no more than to match the tone you have used with me. I too have emphatic feelings about God the Father, and am aware of the complexity of his creation.
If you believe I am mocking you, then what I am I mocking you about?

God teach you Edwin, for I cannot.
Suffer in love.