Fall out from closing of Irish Embassy at the Vatican

[Leegal]

This is thought-provoking. Why did Ireland need an embassy there anyway? Why does any country need an embassy there? Isn’t the Vatican supposed to be spiritual and not temporal? Didn’t the Vatican give up most of its territorial possessions in Italy in the 19th century? Isn’t it sufficient to have diplomatic relations with small countries without having a full blown embassy?

For the same reason that the Vatican has a representative at the U.N. The Church is a major influence and has been for 2,000 years. The Vatican recognizes that it must exist in a real world with all kinds of differences and problems (and some which directly affect the Church) – and likely feels that it needs official relations with countries – present in Rome – and relations outside of Rome, which is why they have a permanent observer mission at the U.N.

I suspect that Ireland’s near bankruptcy is the cause of the closure with pressure from the EU. If these countries, like Ireland, Portugal and Greece are to avoid default, the EU has probably put some pressure upon them to find ways to cut back before the EU will come to the rescue. The major country that does not seem to be burdened with debt is Germany.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

One further point: 179 states have diplomatic relations with the Holy See; of that 99 have non-resident ambassadors. Ireland now makes that 100. Only a minority of states have resident ambassadors.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Irish State is NOT severing diplomatic ties with the Vatican.

The Irish embassy to Italy is currently just 4 kilometers away from the Villa Spada, the Irish embassy to the Vatican. Staff working in the embassy to Italy in Rome, which is a rented premises costing €200,000 annually, will be transferred to Villa Spada.

Since 2009 Ireland has been attempting to reduce and rationalise its representation abroad from 75 to 55 embassies and legations. These current closures, Iran, East Timor (to which Ireland gives and will continue to give large amounts of aid) and the Vatican, are part of this process of reduction and rationalisation.

It makes no sense economically to have two full embassies within four kilometers of each other. It makes even less economic sense to have a fully staffed embassy to a population of less than 1000 when the Irish Italian embassy could easily do both tasks. However, the Vatican does not permit this.

However, I think it is likely that had the clerical abuse scandals not happened, and had the Vatican not snubbed the various judicial enquiries in Ireland, the Irish embassy to the Holy See would not have made it on to the list.

There hasn’t been an Irish ambassador to the Vatican since May 2011; there hasn’t been a Papal Nuncio in Ireland since July. Irish Catholics haven’t even noticed.

Yes. Virtually any country could say it hasn’t enough diplomatic busness with the Vatican to have an embassy, justify the expense, etc. But is Ireland really poorer than Albania and Ivory Coast, both of which have embassies? It’s the symbolism, particularly at this time, that, in my opinion at least, is so bad. Even Egypt has an embassy to the Vatican.

Ireland seems to be in the process of rejecting its Catholicism and Catholic heritage in favor of secularism. That’s their choice to make, of course. From the standpoint of a descendant of Irish emigrants, it’s sad, though.

 

[BVM_1221]

Ireland seems to be in the process of rejecting its Catholicism and Catholic heritage in favor of secularism. That’s their choice to make, of course. From the standpoint of a descendant of Irish emigrants, it’s sad, though.

Also sad is the way that many Catholics still ignore the elephant in the room. The Irish are indeed rejecting the Catholic Church…the Catholic Church of abuse of power, child abuse, and coverups. :sad_yes:

They are being joined by much of the world. The Catholic Church has lost its moral high ground in the wake of the world-wide sexual scandles. Catholic attitudes about birth control, abortion, marriage, and divorce are considered a joke among a majority of people.

The Catholic Church has a long long road of re-building to undertake. And no, I am NOT going to jump ship:dts:

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Yes. Virtually any country could say it hasn’t enough diplomatic busness with the Vatican to have an embassy, justify the expense, etc. But is Ireland really poorer than Albania and Ivory Coast, both of which have embassies? It’s the symbolism, particularly at this time, that, in my opinion at least, is so bad. Even Egypt has an embassy to the Vatican.

Ireland seems to be in the process of rejecting its Catholicism and Catholic heritage in favor of secularism. That’s their choice to make, of course. From the standpoint of a descendant of Irish emigrants, it’s sad, though.

If Albania and the Ivory Coast want to finance two full embassies in Rome instead of spending their taxpayers money on providing a reasonable quality of life for their people and trying to live within their means, that’s up to them.

I fail to see what effect closing an embassy building is going to have on Catholicism and Catholic heritage in Ireland. Diplomatic relations will continue. Besides, it’s way past time for the Church to start behaving like a Church and not like some medieval fiefdom. And for Ireland to stop acting like the Vatican’s satellite.

As for symbolism, the Vatican withdrawing its ambassador in a fit of pique at being criticised by the Irish government over its non-cooperation with the judicial tribunals said it all for us here.

And frankly, your sadness is your problem, not ours.

 

[BVM_1221]

By an odd coincidence, here is another look at the situation in Ireland. :coffeeread:

reuters.com/article/2011/11/06/us-ireland-church-idUSTRE7A51LJ20111106

This sentence in the article sums it all up: “They had too much power. Too much power corrupts, no matter what the institution.”

And for the record, I fully understand that The Church cannot sin, but we do have sinners. And it pains me the way the Church keeps giving non-Catholics the impression that the Bishops have mastered the art of shooting themselves in the feet.:crutches:

 

[JonahJ]

Irish Dept .of Foreign Affairs website this evening 6/Nov…Ireland does not have an embassy in the Vatican. East Timor and Iran are still listed. ???

embassy.goabroad.com/embassies-of/ireland#

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Irish Dept .of Foreign Affairs website this evening 6/Nov…Ireland does not have an embassy in the Vatican. East Timor and Iran are still listed. ???

embassy.goabroad.com/embassies-of/ireland#

That’s because Ireland doesn’t have a serving ambassador to the Vatican; Noel Fahey retired earlier this year and was not replaced.

East Timor and Iran, on the other hand, have serving ambassadors. Those embassies will not close officially until the serving ambassadors are recalled and the embassy buildings cleared.

 

[BlueSapphire]

A leading politician has called on Enda Kenny to come clean on the decision to close Ireland’s embassy at the Vatican.

Fianna Fail deputy leader Eamon O Cuiv has claimed that the closure is linked to the government’s recent row with the Holy See.

Now O Cuiv, grandson of former Irish President Eamon de Valera, has joined the debate and challenged Kenny and his government to tell the truth.

“The decision to close the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in the Vatican was purely a political one and the Government should have the guts to say that is what it was,” said O Cuiv.

“It is nonsense to insist it was not a political decision, and it was most definitely not a fiscal decision.”

irishcentral.com/news/De-Valeras-grandson-challenges-Vatican-embassy-closure-133320183.html

 

[Yellow_Belle]

A leading politician has called on Enda Kenny to come clean on the decision to close Ireland’s embassy at the Vatican.

Fianna Fail deputy leader Eamon O Cuiv has claimed that the closure is linked to the government’s recent row with the Holy See.

Now O Cuiv, grandson of former Irish President Eamon de Valera, has joined the debate and challenged Kenny and his government to tell the truth.

“The decision to close the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in the Vatican was purely a political one and the Government should have the guts to say that is what it was,” said O Cuiv.

“It is nonsense to insist it was not a political decision, and it was most definitely not a fiscal decision.”

That’s rich coming from an ethically and morally challenged political party like Fianna Fáil

 

[BlueSapphire]

That’s rich coming from an ethically and morally challenged political party like Fianna Fáil

To be truthful, the Labour Party are FAR worse ethically and morally, they want to intruduce abortion, and SS marriage.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

To be truthful, the Labour Party are FAR worse ethically and morally, they want to intruduce abortion, and SS marriage.

There’s already legal abortion in Ireland in particular circumstances - no introduction necessary. It’s just that no doctor or hospital will perform one. And, of course, we have Britain handy to solve that little conundrum for us.

I have searched the current programme for government and nowhere can I find a commitment to introduce same sex marriage. And Civil Partnership was introduced by a Fianna Fáil government.

So it’s not being truthful at all. Fianna Fáil bankrupted this country through corruption, abuse of power and cronyism. To be REALLY truthful, their lack of any ethics or morals is one of the reasons Ireland now finds herself having to reduce the number of her embassies and consulates abroad.

 

[BlueSapphire]

When does any goverment stick to their programme for government!!!

The leader of Irish Labour has called for a referendum on gay marriage at the launch of the party’s election manifesto on Friday, insisting the country is “ready” for equality.

As reported by the Irish Independent, Eamon Gilmore said: “Ireland is ready for equality between gay and straight,” and he confirmed the party’s stance to push for a referendum on the introduction of legislation to allow gay marriage.

The current Fianna-Fail and Green Part coalition government passed legislation to allow same-sex civil partnerships last year, with the law taking effect in January. But the first unions will not take place until April as it takes three months to complete the registration process.

Green Party member of Irish parliament, Ciaran Cuffe, whose party has supported equal rights for gays on a number of issues, welcomed Labour’s decision to “come out” over the policy according to the newspaper.

news.pinkpaper.com/NewsStory/4820/12/2/2011/Irish-Labour-party-supports-gay-marriage-referendum.aspx

 

[Yellow_Belle]

When does any goverment stick to their programme for government!!!

news.pinkpaper.com/NewsStory/4820/12/2/2011/Irish-Labour-party-supports-gay-marriage-referendum.aspx

Grandstanding at a conference. Labour is the junior party in government and has no means of bringing about such a referendum.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And frankly, your sadness is your problem, not ours.

Might be true. All the same, one ought to recognize that the way Ireland is perceived by “overseas Irish” could have consequences. If those of Irish descent come to think of Ireland as just another failed, secular EU state, and having no particular reason to think of it as special in any way, it could matter in time. And only time will tell. In the meanwhile, posts such as yours pretty well tell descendants of Irishmen what you in Ireland think of us. Message acknowledged.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Might be true. All the same, one ought to recognize that the way Ireland is perceived by “overseas Irish” could have consequences. If those of Irish descent come to think of Ireland as just another failed, secular EU state, and having no particular reason to think of it as special in any way, it could matter in time. And only time will tell. In the meanwhile, posts such as yours pretty well tell descendants of Irishmen what you in Ireland think of us. Message acknowledged.

Yeah, tis well known throughout Ireland that I speak for everyone on the island. But thanks, anyway for confirming my opinion of the grasp of Irish, UK and European matters by Americans on these boards.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yeah, tis well known throughout Ireland that I speak for everyone on the island. But thanks, anyway for confirming my opinion of the grasp of Irish, UK and European matters by Americans on these boards.

Gee, and here I thought we Americans were ignorant only of Irish affairs. Guess maybe the next time Germany decides to take you all over, maybe we ought to just give it a pass. Looks like she’ll at least own the EU failed states economically, if not otherwise.

She’s going to make you raise your taxes, you know. See if she doesn’t.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Gee, and here I thought we Americans were ignorant only of Irish affairs. Guess maybe the next time Germany decides to take you all over, maybe we ought to just give it a pass. Looks like she’ll at least own the EU failed states economically, if not otherwise.

She’s going to make you raise your taxes, you know. See if she doesn’t.

Ah that old German hegemony canard The last resort of the clueless.

Glad to see that you’re as clueless about European taxation as you are about the alleged home of your ancestors.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Ah that old German hegemony canard The last resort of the clueless.

Glad to see that you’re as clueless about European taxation as you are about the alleged home of your ancestors.

Are you really saying Germany has not sought hegemony over Europe? Just wait and see what happens. Merkel is already complaining about your tax rates, and you will end up raising them and that won’t be the only thing Ireland will do that will be “Made in Berlin”. Clueless I may be about European financial conditions, but she isn’t.

Oh, one more thing about Americans. On some sites, and CAF is definitely one of them, personal insults like “clueless” are not permitted. I don’t report people for things like that, but there’s always a first time.

“Alleged” home of my ancestors? Why “alleged”? Do you think I don’t know?

 

[BlueSapphire]

Just let you know that Yellowbelle’s opinions are not typical of most Irish, (at least those I come in contact with), they are her own personal opinins to which she is entitled!