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PaulinVA
Guest
Then why do we recognize their baptism? If baptism does not enter one into the Body of Christ, the Universal church, what does it do?
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Leonius
Guest
There is more than baptism required to be member of the Church as an adult.
“The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church. (Sent. certa.)”
That is they must also hold the Catholic Faith(“not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith”) and not to have wilfully rejected communion with the Church, such as schismatics do.(“lawful communion of the Church.” )
You really should read Mystici Corporis Christi.
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Tracyms1974
Guest
Sorry, daughter of truth. i responded, but it didn’t look like it. I goofed. Let’s try again.
The complete renunciation of the Catholic Faith by a baptized person who had professed it. An apostate incurs excommunication, ipso facto, from the Church, and is refused Christian burial unless he repents. [according to the NAB dictionary]
Protestants are Christians. They do their own burials. What’s wrong with that? Better that than an atheist burial, right? My grandmother didn’t even go to church, so she ended up being buried by a Moravian minister just because my mom liked him.
I would argue that there are worse things than murder, like torture and child abuse, especially by mothers. But that’s just me. The thing with your dad is that he turned his back on God by refusing to submit to Him. Mortal sin. He has not repented of it, chose an “church” that is more convenient, that tells him what he wants to hear. You have to pray for his conversion. I understand, my dad’s in the same boat (only not in the Episcopalian group). I don’t like the truth of it either, but denying the truth will only guarantee that he doesn’t convert and that I may damn myself for putting my likes over God’s law. We have to pray for their conversion, that they confess and repent before death.
What good does it do to pray for somebody if you’re pretty sure they aren’t going to change their minds? I’ve had a terrible life here lately. Sometimes I humorously think to myself that I’m going through all these bad things because my family is a bunch of “heathens” and my suffering is for them. Didn’t Padre Pio say that, that your suffering may actually be for somebody else? Oh well, if I pray for them, it isn’t very intense. I don’t have much hope for them cause they’re stubborn. Them=my mom, my dad, my brother, my cousins, my whole family. I think I’m the only practicing Catholic left in my family. Sad.
Tracy, you and your dad will also be in my prayers.
Tracy
The complete renunciation of the Catholic Faith by a baptized person who had professed it. An apostate incurs excommunication, ipso facto, from the Church, and is refused Christian burial unless he repents. [according to the NAB dictionary]
Protestants are Christians. They do their own burials. What’s wrong with that? Better that than an atheist burial, right? My grandmother didn’t even go to church, so she ended up being buried by a Moravian minister just because my mom liked him.
I would argue that there are worse things than murder, like torture and child abuse, especially by mothers. But that’s just me. The thing with your dad is that he turned his back on God by refusing to submit to Him. Mortal sin. He has not repented of it, chose an “church” that is more convenient, that tells him what he wants to hear. You have to pray for his conversion. I understand, my dad’s in the same boat (only not in the Episcopalian group). I don’t like the truth of it either, but denying the truth will only guarantee that he doesn’t convert and that I may damn myself for putting my likes over God’s law. We have to pray for their conversion, that they confess and repent before death.
What good does it do to pray for somebody if you’re pretty sure they aren’t going to change their minds? I’ve had a terrible life here lately. Sometimes I humorously think to myself that I’m going through all these bad things because my family is a bunch of “heathens” and my suffering is for them. Didn’t Padre Pio say that, that your suffering may actually be for somebody else? Oh well, if I pray for them, it isn’t very intense. I don’t have much hope for them cause they’re stubborn. Them=my mom, my dad, my brother, my cousins, my whole family. I think I’m the only practicing Catholic left in my family. Sad.
Tracy, you and your dad will also be in my prayers.
I’m just curious your response to my opinions. Not here to fight, just curious.Thanks, but like I said, I hope you are not wasting your time.
Tracy
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daughteroftruth
Guest
The complete renunciation of the Catholic Faith by a baptized person who had professed it. An apostate incurs excommunication, ipso facto, from the Church, and is refused Christian burial unless he repents. [according to the NAB dictionary]
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PaulinVA
Guest
I have read Mystici Corporis Christi.
I have also read Unitatis Redintegratio.
“But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
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daughteroftruth
Guest
St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, says in 1 Cor. 5: 12, 13
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside…
I would ask if your grandmother was Catholic and rejected the Faith, and thus didn’t go to church. I can’t speak for non-Catholics and their rights, but for a Catholic who leaves the Church and does not repent, they are (rightly so) denied Christian burial. What a non-Catholic (or Catholic) family member decides for the funeral of such a person is between them and God. Having Christian burial doesn’t save a person damned, and lack of it doesn’t damn a person saved.
They way my Confirmation sponsor (a very holy lady) explained it to me was that God takes all the prayers and sacrifices offered for certain people and (if they person will only waste them) saves the graces for the opportune moment. Then, when this person cracks open the door BAM. He just slams it in, floods their soul to overflowing. We can’t know when they’re going to convert, but to say that they can’t shows lack of faith, and all that is not of faith is sin (St. Paul to the Galatians, I believe). “What is impossible for man is possible with God.” Words of Christ.
I recommend reading the book regarding St. Mary Magdalene, the one based on the visions of Blessed Anna Katerina Emmerich. St. Martha was very concerned about the sould of her sister, the Magdalene, and besought Jesus for her. He told her that she would convert, but that she was to continue to pray for her conversion, as well as evangelize to her. He then said to those nearby (or maybe it was a little later, but it was said to a small crowd) that when Magdalene converted, her holiness would surpass that of Martha. My sister is a lot like St. Magdalene, and I have no doubt that she will convert, but that doesn’t change my worry for her soul. I have faith that she will convert, but I do not presume that she will. Same with my dad.
He may have, but I think he may have been referring to the opportunity to offer our suffering for the sins of others. Many Saints did this. God doesn’t punish us for the sins of others, but we sometimes have to bear the same/similar consequences.
Same here just about: My brother, mom, and me (I think our Godparents too, actually).
Just keep praying. Actually, what might help inspire you to want to pray harder is to read the writings of the Saints regarding the tortures of Hell. This helps to continue praying when I feel like quitting.
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Leonius
Guest
That does not say they are members of the Church, you can’t be unless you have Faith. As you have read both documents you know that this must be interpreted in continuity with Mystici Corporis Christi, the way you are choosing to interpret it is not and so must be wrong.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I did not provide an interpretation. I simply quoted. I would like for you to please reconcile the two documents.
Unitatis Redintegratio says that our protestant brothers can be members of the Body of Christ.
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Leonius
Guest
You first
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CradleCath
Guest
I agree. One who has had the privilege of being a Catholic, learning about the faith & leaves it is commiting grave sin. Fallen away Catholics cannot be compared to those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Truth of Christ’s Church. And yes, we must pray for those who have done so.
However, to claim that **anyone **will go to Hell, which is what the title of this thread states, is not within our realm of knowledge. We cannot see into the mind & the heart of anyone. We cannot even be sure that Hitler is in Hell…though I rather imagine he is. Only God can know what drove these people to leave the Church, only He can read their hearts & thier minds.
IOW., we can know that rejecting Christ’s Church is a mortal sin, but we cannot know the penalty that each person who does so, will suffer.
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East_Anglican
Guest
I’m glad The Pope doesn’t agree with you.
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daughteroftruth
Guest
The opinion of the Pope doesn’t override the law of God.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Leonius, you are a chicken!You first
I do find it hard to reconcile the tone of the two documents, with one saying that unless one is a member of the Catholic Church one can not achieve salvation, and the other saying that our protestant brothers and sisters are members of Christ’s body, which does imply salvation.
Perhaps others can assist us in this endeavor?
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Leonius
Guest
The Pope does agree with that, he has to agree with that to be Catholic you see the words de fide at the end that means ‘of the faith’, it is taught as accepted and essential doctrine which all Catholics MUST believe.
The Anglicans used to believe the same thing, though obviously in a way that included Anglicans right up until the last century
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Leonius
Guest
That’s not what needs to be reconciled, you can be a member of the Church and still go to Hell. What needs to be reconciled is who is actually a member of the Church, according to Mystici Corporis “Only those are to be accounted really members of the Church who have been regenerated in the waters of Baptism and profess the true faith, and have not cut themselves of from the structure of the Body by their own unhappy act or been severed there from, for very grave crimes, by the legitimate authority”Leonius, you are a chicken!
I do find it hard to reconcile the tone of the two documents, with one saying that unless one is a member of the Catholic Church one can not achieve salvation, and the other saying that our protestant brothers and sisters are members of Christ’s body, which does imply salvation.
Perhaps others can assist us in this endeavor?
That is the main passage that this new document must be interpreted in continuity with.
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PaulinVA
Guest
“The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
Perhaps our non-Catholic brothers can profess the true faith?
Frankly, I would bet that there are people in the ecclesial communities who will achieve salvation while there are people at Mass every week who will not.
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Madaglan
Guest
From the CCC:
Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2089.htm
In order to be an apostate, you need to completely repudiate the Christian faith. A Catholic becoming Protestant does not completely repudiate the Christian faith.
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Leonius
Guest
Of course anyone can do that, Faith is a gift from God after all, however if they were to do that then they would cease to be protestants and become Catholic, the one is not compatible with the other.
There are five cardinal points which are essential and absolutely must be believed for a person to be saved. These are:
- That there is only one God,
- That He is the creator, preserver and governor of all things,
- That in God there are three persons the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost,
- That the Son of God became man for the love of us, and redeemed us by His death upon the cross.
- That God is a just judge, who will reward good and punish evil.
And you can be sure that they never had true Faith from God because a person with true Faith would by that grace accept the Divinely revealed Truths when they were made known to them. Also with regards to protestants they have the Bible within which many of the Divinely Revealed Truths which they reject are actually contained.
Now you go to far, you seriously believe that people who do not have the sacraments have such a high likelihood of been saved, what about their mortal sins?
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graceandglory
Guest
I disagree vehemently, CradleCath. When I left the Catholic Church, I left the*** parish*** I grew up in. I didn’t know there were faithful Catholics who loved God with their heart, soul, mind, and strength. I didn’t know I could just find a more faithful, orthodox parish. I only knew Catholics who were blasphemous during the week, and went to receive Communion on Sundays. I was NEVER exposed to the real Catholic Church. While I wasn’t a “practicing” Catholic, I still did my best to live by Catholic teaching on everything including birth control.
It was through no fault of my own that I didn’t know the whole truth. When the truth was finally made available to me, through seeking out truth via the internet, I was brought back to the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.
This is my story, and I don’t mind if you ask me questions. I have a real hard time with someone telling me that I “should have known better” or that I was in mortal sin when it was Christ and His Church that I have loved and sought for my whole life.
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Jacafamala
Guest
Someone who has been given a reasonable and correct presentation of the Faith should know better. No one is “talking” about you personally here. If you weren’t given the truths of the Faith, then you aren’t responsible.
Just as a side note, from a previous post: someone who rejects the Faith entirely is apostate. One who rejects part of the Faith is a heretic.
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