Fallen away Catholics must return in order to reach heaven

[PaulinVA]

Leonius.

I am not following two lines of thought. The first is that not Catholic protestants, who through prayer and research decide that they are called to followed a non Catholic path, are not saved. To say that they can not be saved is just, well, hard to accept. It leaves us with a very childish dialogue with our separated brothers:

Protestant: Hey, Catholic, you’re going to hell.
Catholic: No, you’re going to hell.

That can’t be true if we are both members of the body of Christ, which we established earlier.

Secondly, this idea of grace allowing all of us to keep the commandments is an ongoing thing, not an all at once thing. Read some of the other forums here at CAF and see if people who receive the Sacraments regularly no longer struggle with sin.

Of course, that might explain why there are seldom lines at confession at my Church. I must belong to a parish where most, if not all, have faith and have conquered sin.

 

[ac_claire]

Leonius.

I am not following two lines of thought. The first is that not Catholic protestants, who through prayer and research decide that they are called to followed a non Catholic path, are not saved. To say that they can not be saved is just, well, hard to accept.

Hi Paul,

The thing about this is yes, it’s hard to accept. Very hard. Remember when Christ told his disciples that they must eat his body and drink his blood to have everlasting life? That was also extremely hard to accpet, and many flat out refused to. (Scott Hahn says those disciples who left in John 6 were the first protestants. )

The question we should ask ourselves is is it true? As this is a doctrine of the Church, the answer is yes.

It leaves us with a very childish dialogue with our separated brothers:

Protestant: Hey, Catholic, you’re going to hell.
Catholic: No, you’re going to hell.

But the conversation doesn’t have to go exactly this way, of course lol. The truth is the truth and we must accept it, but there are effective and ineffective, charitable and uncharitable ways of expressing it. Also, while we do know what the Church teaches about this, I personally stay away from condemning people to hell. That’s not my job. I can’t judge this or that person’s heart or the state of their conscience or the culpability (or lack thereof) of their ignorance.

It might just be my personality, but I’ve found that telling people they are hellbound isn’t always the best way to evangelize. If you’re explaining it to someone, just tell them what the Church believes and why. That they are on the wrong path (if they are) is implicit-- in fact it’s the reason you’re even having the conversation.

If you jump to conclusions assuming that you can read their hearts and speak to God’s personal judgement…well at that point the other person knows you’re speaking from your own emotions/opinions now, so this tactic can weaken your credibility as an evangelist and apologist.

That can’t be true if we are both members of the body of Christ, which we established earlier.

I understand what you’re saying, but the Catechism is very clear about this. Even being in “imperfect communion” with the Church isn’t enough to save a person. Any more than being in full communion is. Salvation is a whole 'nother thing.

 

[Leonius]

Leonius.

I am not following two lines of thought. The first is that not Catholic protestants, who through prayer and research decide that they are called to followed a non Catholic path, are not saved. To say that they can not be saved is just, well, hard to accept. It leaves us with a very childish dialogue with our separated brothers:

Its hard for you to accept because like I said you are sentimental as are all your objections.

Protestant: Hey, Catholic, you’re going to hell.
Catholic: No, you’re going to hell.

Is this any better:

Protestant: Hey, Catholic, you’re going to hell.
Catholic: No, we are both going to Heaven.

?

That can’t be true if we are both members of the body of Christ, which we established earlier.

Secondly, this idea of grace allowing all of us to keep the commandments is an ongoing thing, not an all at once thing. Read some of the other forums here at CAF and see if people who receive the Sacraments regularly no longer struggle with sin.

Of course, that might explain why there are seldom lines at confession at my Church. I must belong to a parish where most, if not all, have faith and have conquered sin.

But membership is not a permanent thing Paul, have you never heard of excommunication? One of the things that causes you to be excommunicated is heresy, and heresy is the denial of any of the dogmas of the Faith once they have been made known to you. In theory a protestant who never had the opportunity since His baptism to learn the truths of the Faith would not be guilty of heresy having never known them to deny them, in practice this is rarely if ever the case, certainly no one you know should be able to claim that, if they can then you are at fault for hiding the Truth from them. Christ Himself said the very same:

“He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.” John 8:47

That is that those who are truly God’s servants understand when they hear God’s Truth taught by a Catholic that it is indeed from God and will accept it. Any person who refuses to accept it is not of God, does not have Grace in them nor Faith and is not a member of the Church.

Then there is the difficulty of how our theoretical protestant would manage to avoid falling into mortal sin, and once he did how could be restored to the life of grace without the sacraments. The second part of your post really makes my point for me, if Catholics struggle so much with the help of the sacraments how are those without the sacraments going to fare?

 

[PaulinVA]

Leonius and AC Claire, thank you for your replies.

This obviously does not directly affect me, so I’m not sure how much effort I need to put into it. My more serious question is about the reconcilliation of what you are says with Unitatis Redintegratio, which I quoted earlier:

“But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”

So, we have earlier documents that pretty much condemn the protestants to hell, and later documents that call them our brothers in Christ.

That is my problem. The inconsistency of the documents. I am perfectly correct in my interpretation of the document I cite, and you gays are correct in what you cite, and we have the opposite position.

 

[PaulinVA]

I obviously meant to refer to “you guys” in my last post.

Sorry for the typo.

 

[Bellus]

The Scriptures make it clear that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, Christ did not found denominations he founded One Church, that Church is the Catholic Church.(John 10:16, John 17:21).

The One true Church of Christ:

*was founded by Jesus Christ Himself in Mt 16:18.
*would be built on Simon Peter, Mt 16:18.
*would be defended by GOD Himself, Mt 16:18-19.
*would have authority given by Jesus Christ, Mt 16:19,18:17-18.
*would be guided by the Holy Spirit who will dwell within it, Jn 14:15-17, Act 15:28,16:6.
*would be one and undivided, Mk 3:24-25.
*would have one fold and one shepherd, Jn 10:16.
*would have Priests, Bishops, and Deacons, 1Tim 3:1-13.
*must have the Holy Eucharist celebration, Jn 6:42-70, Act 2:42.
*must be found in all nations, Mt 28:19.
*must be found in all centuries, Mt 28:20.
*Jesus Christ said He would be with His Church every day, in every year, until the end of the world, Mt 28:20. This means no gaps in time.

It is Christ’s will that we all be one in one Church why do you not obey?

Then you are more certain of your salvation than even the Apostles,(1Cor 9:27)(Phil 2:12) such presumption of God’s mercy is offensive to Him and it is not biblical, Christ clearly says that if you do not do certain things, for example obey the commandments(Matt:19-17) you will not be saved no matter how much you say “Lord, Lord”.(Matt:7:21)

Yes Christ saves, but He has chosen to do this through the Church, we can only be saved on Christ’s term’s not on our own. If you truly follow Christ why do you not obey His commandments? Why do you not believe in His whole doctrine? Why do you not honour Him in the Blessed Sacrament? Why do you not listen to those whom He has chosen to teach the Faith to us?(Luke 10:16)

Christ has solemnly declared that only those will be saved, who have done God’s will on earth, as explained not by private interpretation, but by the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. “Not everyone” says Christ, “who saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doth the will of my Father, who is in heaven, he shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 7:21)

The will of the heavenly Father is that all men hear and believe His Son, Jesus Christ.

“This is my well beloved Son. Him you shall hear.”

Now Jesus Christ said this to His Apostles and to all their lawful successors:

“He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despitheth me, and he that despiseth me, despitheth Him; the heavenly Father, that sent me,”

If you do not listen to Jesus Christ speaking to you through St. Peter and the Apostles, in their lawful successors you despise God the Father and you are not doing His will, you are doing your own will just like you are doing your own interpretation of scripture.

Not to believe all that Christ has said is to call Christ a liar(1 John 5:10), and that is an awful blasphemy.

Jesus Christ says: “Hear the Church.”(Matt 18:17) “No” said Luther and all the protestants, “do not hear the Church, protest against her with all your might!”

Jesus Christ says: “If anyone will not hear the Church look upon him as a heathen and a publican.” “No,” says protestantism.

Jesus Christ says: “The gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church.” “No” says protestantism the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church for a thousand years and more"

Jesus Christ declared St. Peter and every successor to St. Peter, the Pope to be His Vicar on earth. “No” say protestants, “the Pope is Anti-Christ”.

Jesus Christ says: “My yoke is sweet and my burden light.”(Matt. 11:30) "No said Luther and Calvin, “is is impossible to keep the commandments.”

Jesus Christ says: “If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”(Matt. 14:17) “No” said Luther and Calvin, “faith alone, without good works, is suficent to enter life everlasting.”

Jesus Christ says: “Unless you do penance, you shall likewise perish.” (Luke 3:3) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “fasting, and other works of penance are not necessary for satisfaction of sin.”

Jesus Christ says: “This is my body.” “No” said Calvin, “this is only the figure of Christ’s Body”

Jesus Christ says: “I say to you, whoever shall put away his wife, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he that shall marry her that is put away, commiteth adultery.” (Matt 19:9) “No” say Luther and al protestants, to a married man, “you may put away your wife, get a divorce, and marry another.”

“And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?” Luke 6:46

In order to “follow” the 10 commandments to the letter I would never sin. I do try to uphold the law and I believe what God’s word says. I could care less what Luther or anyone else said. I fully understand that in order to be saved from eternal damnation I must (and have) accepted the free gift of grace through the shed blood of Jesus and because I am filled with the Holy Spirit, strive to do the good works to show myself approved. I know that the Church was founded by Christ and is built upon Him. I am a member of the body of believers and followers of Christ. But to say that the Catholic church or any church is infallible is wrong. People make up that church and people fall short of the glory every day. There is only one perfect, good One, God the Father. I confess, I take communion, and attend worship services, and I know that the bible declares that if I call upon the name of the Lord I shall be saved. I do obey Christ and am part of His church.

 

[Leonius]

In order to “follow” the 10 commandments to the letter I would never sin. I do try to uphold the law and I believe what God’s word says. I could care less what Luther or anyone else said. I fully understand that in order to be saved from eternal damnation I must (and have) accepted the free gift of grace through the shed blood of Jesus and because I am filled with the Holy Spirit, strive to do the good works to show myself approved. I know that the Church was founded by Christ and is built upon Him. I am a member of the body of believers and followers of Christ. But to say that the Catholic church or any church is infallible is wrong. People make up that church and people fall short of the glory every day. There is only one perfect, good One, God the Father. I confess, I take communion, and attend worship services, and I know that the bible declares that if I call upon the name of the Lord I shall be saved. I do obey Christ and am part of His church.

You have just shown that you are not.

 

[daughteroftruth]

I fully understand that in order to be saved from eternal damnation I must (and have) accepted the free gift of grace through the shed blood of Jesus

This was not the teaching of Jesus, but a (partial) teaching of the Catholic Church.

I know that the Church was founded by Christ and is built upon Him. I am a member of the body of believers and followers of Christ.

You’re a member of *His *Church if you adhere to the teachings of *His *Church.

But **to say that **the Catholic church or any church is infallible is wrong.

You’re partially right here (see the bold). But wouldn’t you agree that one is being rather presumptuous if he or she says that Christ didn’t know what He was saying when He declared that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church founded on St. Peter, or when He said that He would send the Paraclete to lead this same Church in truth?

People make up that church and people fall short of the glory every day.

Oh, yeah, the Church established by Christ is made up of sinners.

There is only one perfect, good One, God the Father.

Who sent His (also perfect) Son, with the authority to establish a Church, among other things.

I confess, I take communion, and attend worship services, and I know that the bible declares that if I call upon the name of the Lord I shall be saved. I do obey Christ and am part of His church.

The Bible was put together and declared infallible by the Catholic Church. Christ never said to obey a Bible, to keep copies of the Scriptures and adhere to them, but He did say to obey those He put over us in the Faith (Apostles) and St. Paul reiterates this many times. The Scriptures are worthy to know and be taught, is what is said, but the Church (Apostles and their disciples) are to be obeyed in the Faith. The Scriptures make mention of many things necessary for salvation, they’re just not listed in a numerical order, one by one. Calling upon His Name is not enough, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” St. Peter, in his epistle (2nd?) warns against private interpretation.

Pray for enlightenment and keep an open mind when praying and studying the Scriptures. Pax.

 

[banjo]

With regard to understanding magisterial texts such as Unam Sanctam issued by Pope Boniface VIII and the Bull issued by Pope Eugene IV *Cantate Domino *which have been cited in previous posts; here is a portion of an article written by Michael J. Mazza…

"In its letter to Archbishop Cushing on the Boston heresy case (the protocol to which Pope Pius XII had so carefully attended), the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office noted that “the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach. . . that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.” The protocol goes on to say, however, that
(T)his dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Saviour gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church (, in , 1952, vol. 127, pp. 308-15).
In other words, the magisterial texts used by Fr. Feeney and his followers can only be interpreted in context and in the light of other, equally authoritative Magisterial teachings not only in order to avoid confusion or charges that the Church has changed her teaching, but because it is only in harmony with the Magisterium of today that magisterial texts of yesterday may be rightly understood."

The entire article may be seen at the following link:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/extreccl.htm

 

[Pug]

In order to “follow” the 10 commandments to the letter I would never sin.

Underlying when Catholics speak about this is the distinction between a grave and a light sin. They only mean the mortal/grave sins can be avoided, *if *they cooperate with grace. They don’t mean the light ones in that 10 commandments thing. It is based upon a quote from the Council of Trent:

**Canon 18.
**If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to observe, let him be anathema.

This canon is associated with a chapter of information, and in that chapter it mentions that the justified man does still fall into venial/light sins. So, they mean it is possible for a justified man to observe the 10 commandments, but they don’t mean he can avoid all light or venial infringements against them.

 

[Leonius]

No one that I have seen posting here appears to be a feenyite Banjo so I fail to see why you are posting that, unless you just intend to derail this thread into a discussion about feeneyism.

 

[banjo]

No one that I have seen posting here appears to be a feenyite Banjo so I fail to see why you are posting that, unless you just intend to derail this thread into a discussion about feeneyism.

It appeared to me that some of the posters here were expressing a conflict in understanding how early Church statements are compatible with more recent ones. If you will read again the opening sentence in my post you will note that I am posting it as a reference as to how certain magisterial texts are to be interpreted (cf. last paragraph the quote I posted). The fact that it is contained in an article about Fr. Feeney is mere coincidence, the correct understanding of Magisterial texts is the point.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Thanks, but like I said, I hope you are not wasting your time.

It is NEVER a waste of time to pray for a fellow human being.