Falling Out of Heaven

[avus]

I hope I’m just overthinking the matter but here’s a question which is really bothering me, and I’ve never seen it addressed anywhere.

Lucifer and his legions proved that angels in Heaven have free will and are capable of committing sin, even mortal sins. Humans are far less perfect than the angels and are constantly sinning. So even after being saved and entering the Kingdom, do all persons face an eternity of trying to avoid sin so as to avoid the fate of the fallen angels? Or are the saints constantly being tossed back in Purgatory for awhile, or even worse? Remember, Lucifer et al were not sentenced to a few millenia in Purgatory to ponder and repent, but instead were eternally damned without parole.

To sum up, assuming we remain imperfect beings with free will, especially once our souls and flesh are reunited at the end of time, how do we keep from offending God and losing salvation when even many angels couldn’t do it, and when sin is impossible to avoid in life?

 

[Renton405]

You first need to realize that you are hopeless and only God’s grace can save you. However repentance is commiting to confess your sins and make an effort to never do them again. It is a constant battle, but you must never try to give in. When you do, pick yourself up, have contrition, do penance and continue on.

Thats why demons are always accusing us and torturing the damned in hell. Because they never had a second chance at salvation that we humans have. They think we are not worthy to be saved.

 

[avus]

Everything you said is true but didn’t address my question. Your comments pertain to this life while my question concerns the next life in Heaven. Obviously, devils can’t tempt you in Heaven but not all sins can be blamed on demons. You can’t be in God’s Presence with any stain of guilt, and the chance for confession and repentance ends at death. So, to repeat, how do souls in Heaven avoid sin and punishment without losing their humanity or free will?

 

[Spirithound]

Lucifer and his legions proved that angels in Heaven have free will and are capable of committing sin, even mortal sins. Humans are far less perfect than the angels and are constantly sinning. So even after being saved and entering the Kingdom, do all persons face an eternity of trying to avoid sin so as to avoid the fate of the fallen angels? Or are the saints constantly being tossed back in Purgatory for awhile, or even worse? Remember, Lucifer et al were not sentenced to a few millenia in Purgatory to ponder and repent, but instead were eternally damned without parole.

To sum up, assuming we remain imperfect beings with free will, especially once our souls and flesh are reunited at the end of time, how do we keep from offending God and losing salvation when even many angels couldn’t do it, and when sin is impossible to avoid in life?

The solution, I think, is that Lucifer et al. were not actually in Heaven. They knew God, but I believe their choice (and due to their spiritual nature, they only got one) came immediately after their creation, and God had veiled Himself in some way so that the angels could make their choice. Once the good angels entered Heaven, they were in the full Glory of God, as we will be. We will still have our free will, but the way I think of it is that when faced with God, we won’t be able to think of anything other than worshipping Him.

 

[CapIV]

The whole notion of Heaven is very sketchy since obviously one can not actually know what is going on in Heaven. I can’t imagine us being like the angels like Lucifer was for several reasons.

The human condition is inherently flawed after original sin. By our nature, we pervert nature. This is apparent through the doctrine of the Seven Deadly Sins, sins which man are naturally drawn to. Man by nature, after the Fall, is greedy, lustful, vengeful, etc. Now of course we have Free Will and we can deny temptation and lead a life of righteousness.

For this reason, Heaven can’t possibly be in anyway like the life here on Earth. Our life on Earth is inherently imperfect. We have family, possessions, friends, all which can potentially make us unhappy. For our Earthly lives are by their very nature going to be full of unhappiness.

This means that Heaven must be a place in which, in full communion with God, we no longer feel these natural sins. We will not feel the need to have possessions, neither will we feel strongly towards family or friends. If it were the case where we were in the same condition as we are now, how do you think we would feel if perhaps one of our friends was not in Heaven? We would be miserable. So this means, that in Heaven, we cannot possibly feel the same friendly and brotherly attachments that we feel now, because they are by their nature what could potentially lead to unhappiness.

So if we do still have Free Will in Heaven, it would not affect us in the way it does now, because we would not have the natural temptations of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Plus, I am pretty sure that in Heaven, we do not become angels in the same vain that Lucifer was. I am also pretty sure that there is no real definitive doctrine on Angels and hierarchy, just theological speculation. I could be wrong though.

newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

 

[Burkey]

I hope I’m just overthinking the matter but here’s a question which is really bothering me, and I’ve never seen it addressed anywhere.

Lucifer and his legions proved that angels in Heaven have free will and are capable of committing sin, even mortal sins. Humans are far less perfect than the angels and are constantly sinning. So even after being saved and entering the Kingdom, do all persons face an eternity of trying to avoid sin so as to avoid the fate of the fallen angels? Or are the saints constantly being tossed back in Purgatory for awhile, or even worse? Remember, Lucifer et al were not sentenced to a few millenia in Purgatory to ponder and repent, but instead were eternally damned without parole.

To sum up, assuming we remain imperfect beings with free will, especially once our souls and flesh are reunited at the end of time, how do we keep from offending God and losing salvation when even many angels couldn’t do it, and when sin is impossible to avoid in life?

I find your question interesting. I don’t have an answer. I think the theory of Angels not actually being in Heaven at the time of the fall is very plausible.
I have often wondered what we will all be doing in Heaven for all eternity and of course, I can’t imagine. A priest once addressed a class I was in, in Primary School. He said he thought being in Heaven would be like spending time with people you love - you are just happy being there. That was probably a simple answer for young minds, but I think partly true, but there must be more I think.
Do you have any thoughts about how we might be occupied?

 

[jcrichton]

I hope I’m just overthinking the matter but here’s a question which is really bothering me, and I’ve never seen it addressed anywhere.

Lucifer and his legions proved that angels in Heaven have free will and are capable of committing sin, even mortal sins. Humans are far less perfect than the angels and are constantly sinning. So even after being saved and entering the Kingdom, do all persons face an eternity of trying to avoid sin so as to avoid the fate of the fallen angels? Or are the saints constantly being tossed back in Purgatory for awhile, or even worse? Remember, Lucifer et al were not sentenced to a few millenia in Purgatory to ponder and repent, but instead were eternally damned without parole.

To sum up, assuming we remain imperfect beings with free will, especially once our souls and flesh are reunited at the end of time, how do we keep from offending God and losing salvation when even many angels couldn’t do it, and when sin is impossible to avoid in life?

***Hi, avus!

I understand your concern… but you are speaking of two different and distinct creatures:

a) angels are spiritual beings; created, quite possibly, when "God said let there be light (Genesis 1:3)
b) man is a spiritual being created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26; 2:7)

As powerful and able beings as they are, there is no change in them: they are and will be as they were created. Yet, humanity will undergo a fabulous metamorphosis:

35 But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? Or with what manner of body shall they come?.. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption: it shall rise in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonour: it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness: it shall rise in power. 44 It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: 45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit… 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.*** (1 Corinthians 15:35-54–)

But this change is not simply becoming angels:

For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven. (St. Matthew 22:30)

We are to become the perfect essence of God:

Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (St. Matthew 5:48)

9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away… 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. (1 St. John 3:2–DRV)

Since we are to become as Yahweh God, His complete image and likeness not just a mirror of His essence, then there is no rebeliousness left in our being!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Renton405]

Everything you said is true but didn’t address my question. Your comments pertain to this life while my question concerns the next life in Heaven. Obviously, devils can’t tempt you in Heaven but not all sins can be blamed on demons. You can’t be in God’s Presence with any stain of guilt, and the chance for confession and repentance ends at death. So, to repeat, how do souls in Heaven avoid sin and punishment without losing their humanity or free will?

Because all will be understood once we reach heaven. There will be no need to sin because heaven has already fullfilled everything we need. And once we attain full beautification the thought of sinning will be far from out minds because God is so great… The glass is already full once we are in heaven…the thought of sinning will be so far from our minds that no one would really do it because they will finally understand God more fully in heaven. We will be so full of bliss that sin will never enter ones mind.

I find your question interesting. I don’t have an answer. I think the theory of Angels not actually being in Heaven at the time of the fall is very plausible.

what about St. Michael? St. Michael cast Satan from heaven.

 

[CentralFLJames]

In heaven there is no freewill since freewill implies choices. There is only one choice in heaven - doing God’s divine will. Sin is as impossible in heaven as it is impossible for God to sin. In heaven we are instruments of divine will as well as instruments of shared joy and shared glory. Any imaginable good emotional feeling or pleasure on earth, no matter how intense to the senses is not even a shade of the feelings we will have in heaven. Further, since nothing in heaven decays all prayer, all sensation, all joy etc. are perpetual.

Once in heaven there is no way to be cast out of heaven since nothing decays and nothing can be seperated from God nor escape His love, nor His attention.

Human eye has not seen nor conceived what God has in store for those who love Him.

Let’s keep pushing the bar up. Imagine as much joy and wonderment as you can - then imagine it being infinitely more than that!

I have to snicker when I think of Islamics getting only 72 virgins. (slapping self)

James

 

[Nita]

Lucifer and his legions proved that angels in Heaven have free will and are capable of committing sin, even mortal sins. Humans are far less perfect than the angels and are constantly sinning. So even after being saved and entering the Kingdom, do all persons face an eternity of trying to avoid sin so as to avoid the fate of the fallen angels? Or are the saints constantly being tossed back in Purgatory for awhile, or even worse? …

The quickest answer to your question is that after the final judgement, all people go either to ETERNAL heaven or ETERNAL damnation. (Mt. 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ) Purgatory ends. If God judges you fit to enter eternal life, that means that is where you will be eternally.

To sum up, assuming we remain imperfect beings with free will, especially once our souls and flesh are reunited at the end of time, how do we keep from offending God and losing salvation when even many angels couldn’t do it, and when sin is impossible to avoid in life?

We won’t be imperfect anymore - we will be perfected, made perfect by the power of God’s grace. Our resurrected flesh will no longer be subject to the disordered passions (at least not the bodies of those in heaven!!).

We will still have free will, but seeing God face to face, being IN Him, will in some way so influence us that we will desire and choose only Him, His will. (At least, that is the way I understand Church teaching.)

Nita

 

[Hastrman]

The solution, I think, is that Lucifer et al. were not actually in Heaven. They knew God, but I believe their choice (and due to their spiritual nature, they only got one) came immediately after their creation, and God had veiled Himself in some way so that the angels could make their choice. Once the good angels entered Heaven, they were in the full Glory of God, as we will be. We will still have our free will, but the way I think of it is that when faced with God, we won’t be able to think of anything other than worshipping Him.

No, the angels were created in a state of Grace, i.e. in Heaven.

What it was, was, they refused to accept it. Lucifer, knowing full well what God was and what he was, refused to look beyond his own greatness and thank God for it. His sin was pride, pure and simple: without a scrap of ignorance or emotion to dilute it.

But as to the original question, no, there’s no time for angels–they fell once and that was it, or were saved once and that was it. Dead humans are much the same, since spirits have no dimensions, including a time dimension.

 

[nablaise]

Hi,

Free Will does not only consist of chosing. But on the ability to do what we want really FREELY.
Remember because of Sin we are slaves of sin. So we are not completely free, we are in constant battle for freedom. Those who are in heaven have won the battle and for them the enemy have been conquered so they have no more battle to fight.

In Eden, Adam and Eve fall was like a loss of battle. They had to fight because the ennemy was around. They were told that they were to guard the garden. Which means that they were guarding it from something: the ‘serpent’.

Now Christ have one the battle for us, and most specially for those who are in Heaven. So they are in a very different condition than Adam and Eve. Those who are in Heaven they don’t fight to lose, For them there is no possibility to lose. They don’t fight for themselves like we do down here. They fight for us. Not for themselves. For them the merits of Christ victory have been aplied permanently. They are in Heaven and in Heaven there is no ennemy to fight there. So they are free. There is no temptation in Heaven.
So in ‘free will’ we mostly need to understand the ‘freedom’ of the ‘will’. Our will is at constant battle for freedom. It is only after death that they will be no more battle to fight. After death we have won or we have lost.

That’s why we pray “Now, and at the our of our death…Amen”.

God bless

 

[nablaise]

But as to the original question, no, there’s no time for angels–they fell once and that was it, or were saved once and that was it. Dead humans are much the same, since spirits have no dimensions, including a time dimension.

Good description about the fact that there is not time dimension for spirits. Our decision at the hour if death is irrevocable.

God bless

 

[avus]

Hello all,

My deep thanks to all of you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Most of the comments make perfect sense to me. So I’m convinced that if I’m fortunate enough to be saved [must avoid the sin of pride by assuming] then I’ll have nothing to worry about.

Avus

 

[CentralFLJames]

We will still have free will, but seeing God face to face, being IN Him, will in some way so influence us that we will desire and choose only Him, His will. (At least, that is the way I understand Church teaching.)

Nita

The reason why I said freewill ends at death is because I think our very notion of freewill changes in heaven (and there are no choices in hell). In heaven, in a state of perfect grace, there simply are no options to chose evil. It is not because everything that can exist in Creation becomes “good” only in heaven so much as it is that being in communion with God, who is good, makes it impossible for us to depart from Him to will or do evil. God absolutely withholds His co-operation to any sinful consent. So in heaven it becomes impossible to sin. The only choices in heaven are choosing personal preferences whose paths are all good and lead to good outcomes. We choose only in how we personally express and prefer to receive Love (while others are free to love us in good ways they want to as well). We can only express love by one good action in preference to another as a mechanism to impart personal touch. It’s like picking our favorite and unique expressions love by choosing the colors of gems or roses to adorn ourselves with or to give to a loved one as a memento or expression of “us”. Or it is like composing a poem or song uniquely ours as a gift to God or another loved one. Or it is like proposing to God and participating in a personal plan to assist and help a loved one on earth who needs our intercession.

Here is an interesting Catholic Discussion on the matter of Heaven and the beatific vision:
New Advent IMPECCABILITY OF THE BLESSED:

The blessed are confirmed in good; they can no longer commit even the slightest venial sin; every wish of their heart is inspired by the purest love of God. That is, beyond doubt, Catholic doctrine. Moreover this impossibility of sinning is physical. The blessed have no longer the power of choosing to do evil actions; they cannot but love God; they are merely free to show that love by one good action in preference to another. But whilst the impeccability of the blessed appears to be unanimously held by theologians, there is a diversity of opinion as to its cause.

James

 

[po18guy]

The solution, I think, is that Lucifer et al. were not actually in Heaven. They knew God, but I believe their choice (and due to their spiritual nature, they only got one) came immediately after their creation, and God had veiled Himself in some way so that the angels could make their choice. Once the good angels entered Heaven, they were in the full Glory of God, as we will be. We will still have our free will, but the way I think of it is that when faced with God, we won’t be able to think of anything other than worshipping Him.

Great points, and right on! Spirits make their one eternal choice to serve either God or the evil one. The OP has a needless worry. Heaven is God’s Kingdom. The all-powerful God who is love. Nothing unholy may enter that Kingdom, thus there is purgatory before many of us will enter. Before entering His Kingdom, we are perfected, and will have no cares, concerns or worries. That’s why it’s called Heaven. Christ, Who sits at God’s right hand, has power over evil. He cast Satan away from Him in the desert, and has forever cast evil away from those who enter Heaven. How much more Christ loves us than even His human body and life on earth. He is our Savior - forever and ever. Not to worry. All in Heaven is holy and remains so for eternity.

That’s why we wish: Christ’s peace.