False Devotion to Mary

[friardchips]

My point was addressing her as just Mary seems more informal is all.Kind of like kids addressing their parents’ by their first names as opposed to Mom,etc:shrug:

Sure.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Ah you are misreading and misintrepreting my words now and that is unacceptable and unfair and actually drives away more and more .

Time maybe for a loooooooong brreak from Cath Ans.

Fare thee well my dear.

From messages I have received, you will find a vast many people have had the same experience that you have just had.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Another word for adoration can be veneration.

That shows the most fundamental failure to understand the difference between latria and hyperdulia and dulia.

Adoration and veneration are in no way interchangeable.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

We give a divided understanding to our “separated brethren”. (A term the Church uses.)

That dreadful, awful phrase.

It is a very dated expression. It is really not used at the level of the international dialogue as it is just no longer useful. We don’t see separation today as much as we are aware of varied degrees of impaired communion, theologically and eccelesiologically.

Fortunately, there has been much progress in so many ways in more than 50 years since the Council and its antecedents. Thankfully.

From Pope Saint John Paul II’s encyclical, Ut Unum Sint

…Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ…

 

[USMC_Convert]

That shows the most fundamental failure to understand the difference between latria and hyperdulia and dulia.

Adoration and veneration are in no way interchangeable.

Well I always said I was dumb.

 

[Mark121359]

Interesting thread. Just one question. Now how in the world could this sweet young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee be the subject of so many nasty threads of late on a Catholic website?..

“Have no fear of loving the Blessed Virgin too much, you will never love her enough, and Jesus will be pleased since the Blessed Virgin is His Mother.”

~St. Therese of Lisieux in a letter to her cousin Marie Guérin on May 30, 1889~

Peace, Mark

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, please can you expand this as I am not totally sure what you mean? Thank you

The phrase I quoted is the command of the world’s bishops assembled in ecumenical council at Vatican II. The context of the quote is on setting forward what the Church teaches and, as importantly, what it does not teach, regarding the Mother of Jesus.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

The Council Fathers made a number of decisions:

• They rejected making any dogmatic statement at the Council concerning the Virgin Mary…specifically what had been petitioned by certain bishops preparatory to the Council
• They rejected the initial schemata of a stand-alone document on the Mother of Jesus; they determined that the Council’s statements on Mary would be formulated in the context of the mystery of the Church and the Council’s dogmatic constitution on the Church.
• Their statements on the Blessed Virgin in chapter 8 – like their statements on the College of Bishops in chapter 3 – were carefully and methodically crafted to both affirm the Church’s teaching while at the same time serving to correct imbalances which entered into Church praxis relative to both the areas addressed by chapter 3 and of chapter 8.

This admonition of the Council Fathers comes into play because, in theology, there is an essential distinction between latria and hyperdulia/dulia. It is a qualitative distinction and not a mere quantitative difference. As the Catechism reads

2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

As well as

2628 Adoration is the first attitude of man acknowledging that he is a creature before his Creator. It exalts the greatness of the Lord who made us and the almighty power of the Savior who sets us free from evil. Adoration is homage of the spirit to the “King of Glory,” respectful silence in the presence of the “ever greater” God. Adoration of the thrice-holy and sovereign God of love blends with humility and gives assurance to our supplications.

Adoration, then, is the attitude of a creature before the Creator…that is before the Trinity. This is completely different from hyperdulia…that singular veneration which is given to the Mother of the Incarnate Word and dulia which is the veneration given to those in the Beatific Vision.

971 /…/ The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit /…/

The admonition is critical because there may be – and seemingly are here – Catholics who do not grasp why there is precisely a linguistic distinction between adoration and veneration. That we are to “adore the Lord our God alone and Him only are we to serve” is a fundamental imperative of divine revelation readily understood by non-Catholics conversant in the Sacred Scripture.

Precision of formulation and clarity of terminology is essential in theology as much as it is in any science.

It is not only offensive to present as Church teaching what is patently false – that the word to describe the attitude of Catholics toward the Mother of Jesus is “adoration,” which, of course, is false – but it leads others astray in what actually is the Church’s teaching in exactly the way the world’s bishops said is not to happen.

Does this sufficiently expand the matter to resolve what was unclear, Rosebud77?

 

[Rosebud77]

It is a very dated expression. It is really not used at the level of the international dialogue as it is just no longer useful. We don’t see separation today as much as we are aware of varied degrees of impaired communion, theologically and eccelesiologically.

Fortunately, there has been much progress in so many ways in more than 50 years since the Council and its antecedents. Thankfully.

From Pope Saint John Paul II’s encyclical, Ut Unum Sint

…Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ…

Father; thank you. I have been walking around CA with head hanging on this issue, and posts like one above saying that this is CATHOLIC answers do not help

What you say is my own feelings exaclty on this.

In one place here I was accused of not being Catholic for saying what I have done.

My upbringing was Church of England and when I think of the fine and holy people who cared for and protected me? Of the Nuns…

And many there also have a Marian devotion but there is not the same, well, yes, condemnation as I see here.

Thank you, Father!

 

[Rosebud77]

Interesting thread. Just one question. Now how in the world could this sweet young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee be the subject of so many** nasty t**hreads of late on a Catholic website?..

Peace, Mark

Please define “nasty”? asking questions is not so.

This thread has clarified many things.

 

[Rosebud77]

The phrase I quoted is the command of the world’s bishops assembled in ecumenical council at Vatican II. The context of the quote is on setting forward what the Church teaches and, as importantly, what it does not teach, regarding the Mother of Jesus.

The Council Fathers made a number of decisions:

• They rejected making any dogmatic statement at the Council concerning the Virgin Mary…specifically what had been petitioned by certain bishops preparatory to the Council
• They rejected the initial schemata of a stand-alone document on the Mother of Jesus; they determined that the Council’s statements on Mary would be formulated in the context of the mystery of the Church and the Council’s dogmatic constitution on the Church.
• Their statements on the Blessed Virgin in chapter 8 – like their statements on the College of Bishops in chapter 3 – were carefully and methodically crafted to both affirm the Church’s teaching while at the same time serving to correct imbalances which entered into Church praxis relative to both the areas addressed by chapter 3 and of chapter 8.

This admonition of the Council Fathers comes into play because, in theology, there is an essential distinction between latria and hyperdulia/dulia. It is a qualitative distinction and not a mere quantitative difference. As the Catechism reads

As well as

Adoration, then, is the attitude of a creature before the Creator…that is before the Trinity. This is completely different from hyperdulia…that singular veneration which is given to the Mother of the Incarnate Word and dulia which is the veneration given to those in the Beatific Vision.

The admonition is critical because there may be – and seemingly are here – Catholics who do not grasp why there is precisely a linguistic distinction between adoration and veneration. That we are to “adore the Lord our God alone and Him only are we to serve” is a fundamental imperative of divine revelation readily understood by non-Catholics conversant in the Sacred Scripture.

Precision of formulation and clarity of terminology is essential in theology as much as it is in any science.

It is not only offensive to present as Church teaching what is patently false – that the word to describe the attitude of Catholics toward the Mother of Jesus is “adoration,” which, of course, is false – but it leads others astray in what actually is the Church’s teaching in exactly the way the world’s bishops said is not to happen.

Does this sufficiently expand the matter to resolve what was unclear, Rosebud77?

Indeed yes, Father. Thank you.

Cannot remember where , but on one forum way back there was the issue of Mary becoming co-mediatrix with Jesus. Which is a very real danger it seems from some posts here,

"The admonition is critical because there may be – and seemingly are here – Catholics who do not grasp why there is precisely a linguistic distinction between adoration and veneration. That we are to “adore the Lord our God alone and Him only are we to serve” is a fundamental imperative of divine revelation readily understood by non-Catholics conversant in the Sacred Scripture. "

This encapsulates it fully. Thank you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Maybe all the recent topics on Mary should be merged. For it seems essentially every Marian devotion topic in the last month or so have gone like this:

Marian Devotee: Everyone should be devoted to Mary! (Often, as in your case, not just that but “everyone should pick up the exact same Marian devotion that I’m into!” As your other post seemed to advocate not only Marian devotion in general, but a SPECIFIC one, the Montefort Total Consecration).

Non-Marian Devotee: That’s good for you, but not for me, the Church doesn’t require it.

Marian Devotee: Are you saying it is WRONG to practice Marian devotion?

Yet, I have not seen any Catholics state Marian devotion is wrong or that no one should practice it. (Some non-Catholics have, but that’s a whole other issue). This straw man assumption, that “Marian devotion isn’t required” is somehow equivalent to “Marian devotion is wrong” or that if you don’t have an active devotion you must hate Mary.

That’s the problem with these discussions. I’ve come to accept this partisan tone on the World News forums, but it’s sad when people treat Mary like a politician they are supporting and trying convince everyone to vote for. That’s what the political partisans like to do. Accuse everyone who has anything else than total adulation for their leader of “hating” him or her.

I think you lay it out splendidly.

I agree completely with your assessment in your penultimate paragraph.

I found at once comic and tragic the scenario you articulate in your last paragraph…but the analogy is indeed apt.

There is an incredible patrimony of Marian piety in the Church of East and West. Saint Louis de Montfort emerges as one particular facet of the French School of Spirituality of the 17th century. It is a particular expression of that one school of spirituality. Some people find it enriching. Others do not.

One cannot – or at least one ought not – attempt to rank schools of spirituality or pious exercises of the devotional life presuming they are, as the Council Fathers said at Vatican II, within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful

Moreover, the fundamental concepts underlying the theology of consecration has undergone a necessary review and re-formulation.

Those whose devotional life is expressed in Daily Eucharist, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the Liturgy of the Hours and lectio divina are doing quite well. There is no need to fault for the lack of Marian component…it is a devotional life which frankly reflects the piety of the ancient monastics.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father; thank you. I have been walking around CA with head hanging on this issue, and posts like one above saying that this is CATHOLIC answers do not help

What you say is my own feelings exaclty on this.

In one place here I was accused of not being Catholic for saying what I have done.

My upbringing was Church of England and when I think of the fine and holy people who cared for and protected me? Of the Nuns…

And many there also have a Marian devotion but there is not the same, well, yes, condemnation as I see here.

Thank you, Father!

You are welcome.

I would not be optimistic about the veracity of the title of this website. I find more “Catholic Confusion” here than I do “Catholic Answers”.

Mariology was a topic I have enjoyed lecturing on throughout my years. It is one I still give conferences on in retirement because I find it always fulfilling to lecture on and the auditors, often Religious or Diocesan Clergy, find it fruitful both academically and for their spiritual lives…but how far removed is that experience from the attitude one encounters here!

 

[Rosebud77]

You are welcome.

I would not be optimistic about the veracity of the title of this website. I find more "Catholic Confusion" here than I do “Catholic Answers”.

Mariology was a topic I have enjoyed lecturing on throughout my years. It is one I still give conferences on in retirement because I find it always fulfilling to lecture on and the auditors, often Religious or Diocesan Clergy, find it fruitful both academically and for their spiritual lives…but how far removed is that experience from the attitude one encounters here!

Father, it is the condemnation that upsets. Often implied if not spoken. Which is why I used the word “mandatory” , I just read a post here that explained that people do not feel worthy or good enough to approach God directly so ask Mary to do it for them. What IS that? No one is “worthy” which is why Jesus.

 

[Memaw]

That shows the most fundamental failure to understand the difference between latria and hyperdulia and dulia.

Adoration and veneration are in no way interchangeable.

That’s funny, now that you have so kindly pointed out my stupidity again, but I got that straight from a well known Catholic Dictionary. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

It is a very dated expression. It is really not used at the level of the international dialogue as it is just no longer useful. We don’t see separation today as much as we are aware of varied degrees of impaired communion, theologically and eccelesiologically.

Fortunately, there has been much progress in so many ways in more than 50 years since the Council and its antecedents. Thankfully.

From Pope Saint John Paul II’s encyclical, Ut Unum Sint

…Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ…

In my uneducated , (as you so lovingly need to point out,) observation, it seems to me we are more divided today than we were at the time of the Council. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

You are welcome.

I would not be optimistic about the veracity of the title of this website. I find more “Catholic Confusion” here than I do “Catholic Answers”.

Mariology was a topic I have enjoyed lecturing on throughout my years. It is one I still give conferences on in retirement because I find it always fulfilling to lecture on and the auditors, often Religious or Diocesan Clergy, find it fruitful both academically and for their spiritual lives…but how far removed is that experience from the attitude one encounters here!

Glad I’m not the only one that’s “confused”. Misery LOVES company!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Rosebud77]

In my uneducated , (as you so lovingly need to point out,) observation, it seems to me we are more divided today than we were at the time of the Council. God Bless, Memaw

I am so sorry that you see this like that and sad for your pain.

I am always glad to learn, and no accusations are being made here. Myself I have learned a great deal of Church teaching here and it has comforted and assured me and probably stopped me heading for the exit ( and i mean of the Church )

Whean danger of false teaching arises, the Church reemphasises vital things to avoid error.

For us to listen and adapt in thanks and humility.

 

[Rosebud77]

In my uneducated , (as you so lovingly need to point out,) observation, it seems to me we are more divided today than we were at the time of the Council. God Bless, Memaw

Actually the opposite is true. We are coming closer to each other in Jesus.

 

[Memaw]

I am so sorry that you see this like that and sad for your pain.

I am always glad to learn, and no accusations are being made here. Myself I have learned a great deal of Church teaching here and it has comforted and assured me and probably stopped me heading for the exit ( and i mean of the Church )

Whean danger of false teaching arises, the Church reemphasises vital things to avoid error.

For us to listen and adapt in thanks and humility.

I am not in any pain but it does get a bit tiring to be told over and over again how stupid one is. That tends to turn some off and I really am not that stupid. Not to tut my own horn as some love doing, I taught CCD for 20 years, First of all my parish priest, (whom I taught for) kept us on the “straight and narrow” during the unsettling years after Vat. II, joined Catholics United for the Faith and the Blue Army then too. I belonged to a group that brought many holy speakers, mostly priests like Fr, Hardon, to our town for retreats.Took instructions probables over 25 times with prospective converts including both my husbands, (RIP). taught by Priests, before RCIA. Have done RCIA several times as a sponsor. talked to many, many very Holy priests, Fr. William Most, Fr. John Hardon SJ., Fr. John Scott SJ as well as my own Holy Priest Uncle. and was NEVER Put down by a priest so blatantly. I may have never had the formal education that some were privileged to have but like I said I am NOT stupid. I have had years of “On the job” training. Humility goes both ways, God Bless, Memaw

 

[ToeInTheWater]

There is an incredible patrimony of Marian piety in the Church of East and West. Saint Louis de Montfort emerges as one particular facet of the French School of Spirituality of the 17th century. It is a particular expression of that one school of spirituality. Some people find it enriching. Others do not.

What I do find off-putting are posters who not only recommend Marian devotion in general, but insist that everyone “at least try out” a particular form of it, and extrapolate that “this devotion has helped me, so that means everyone else should also join in.” And some devotees seem to have a quasi-Gnostic approach to their chosen devotion, that it somehow offers an “easier path to God” and that those who follow it are in possession of information that makes them superior to those who don’t.

I’ve also noticed that some Fatima devotees focus on berating the Church for either “lying about the Third Secret” or “refusing to consecrate Russia the way Mary wanted” and again, pride themselves on having super special knowledge that the average “pew-sitting Cultural Catholic” doesn’t have.

Those whose devotional life is expressed in Daily Eucharist, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, the Liturgy of the Hours and lectio divina are doing quite well. There is no need to fault for the lack of Marian component…it is a devotional life which frankly reflects the piety of the ancient monastics.

I personally find the richness and diversity of the devotional life of Church to be fascinating, and I find it sad that some just focus on a particular devotion to the exclusion of all else.