False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Servant19]

Well let’s find the answer using the Bible: Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan; and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.”The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this precept, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”
– (Matthew 19:1-12)
Including the words of Paul:I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.
– (1 Corinthians 7:7-9)

One should not get married to fulfill their “passions” and desires.

That is not the purpose of marriage. The purpose of marriage should be to bring forth children that will “make mention of God” and assist in bringing about God’s Message to all corners of the globe where His Light may be diminishing.

So, as a Christian, one should remain single unless the sexual urge is too strong, at which point, marriage is permitted???

.

 

[Servant19]

… or do you deny the new testament?

This needs to stop please.

I do not deny the New Testament.

I undertsand it differently than some Christians do. I feel I read the NT with precision and with a spirit of investigation to unearth the Truths it contains.

Judas already has accused of such things and then goes on to say that the Father cannot be ever seen, quoting 1 Timothy 6, only for the word “Father” to never be mentioned in that entire chapter.

I read with clarity and precision, and with an eye of oneness…not with an eye of elitist exclusivity…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Servent19, you have a vision but it is an impossible vision. Not everyone is going to join hands and sing around a campfire, not everyone is going to submit themselves to the idea of a bahai universal council. You have a vision but no conceivable means of achieving it. It’s a reckless vision which doesn’t take into account human creed and human corruption and it assumes good behind everything. Such a government you want would only end up destroying more of the world in the attempts to create this utopia.

Now I have not rejected your prophet without thought, nor do I imagine most people. Yes there is the gut the reaction, just as you would have a gut reaction against anyone claiming to be your future manifestation. Don’t dismiss people that easily as ignorant and not actually thinking carefully, its an arrogant attitude to have.

Your divine institutions as you call them have done little as far as I’m concerned and want me to think they will do more than the miniscule amount they have already done? If your divine institutions were to head this one world government, you say I have not seen any one world governemnts by which to judge but I have see governments with the type of control that your hypothetical government would have. They are china, they are north korea and they are increasingly the United states of America, freedoms will be demolished for an ideology and that is quite simply the way of any government. You could try to assure me all you like but I don’t place my faith in the power of a human government, even a divine government. Israel was governed by God, given judges and kings yet they failed and you think you can succeed on a much larger level than Israel which was tiny? No, I am not convinced.

Now I do not believe a government run by bahai universal house of justice would or could ensure a policy you are making. No, this would only lead to favour for bahai and bahai alone despite what you think. But how will you exactly achieve such a government? Bahai are forbidden to enter politics after all, bahai are forbidden to proselytise and you are forbidden to debate, a rule you break constantly. You will only convince a small portion of the world and that will be your porition, you wil never convince the entirety.

But talking about these things is useless as they are all hypothetical. You promise a perfect society where all sin is abolished, everyone is happy, there are no wars and etc and quite frankly I think you are lying, not to me but to yourself.

 

[Servant19]

Corinthians 7: 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Notice marriage is a concession, not the highest calling, celibacy and the total dedication to God is a higher and prestigious position than the married.

In the Baha’i religion, the status of marriage has been elevated, and indeed the institution of marriage has found its fulfillment through Baha’u’llah Revelation.

Husband and wife are united to fulfil the purpose of their reproductive organs to raise a family that will draw upon the power of the Holy Spirit (through prayer, worship and righteousness amongst many other things) to be the building block for the Kingdom of God on earth.

That is Baha’i marriage.

If one does not find a suitable marriage partner, celibacy is the only remaining alternative…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This needs to stop please.

I do not deny the New Testament.

I undertsand it differently than some Christians do. I feel I read the NT with precision and with a spirit of investigation to unearth the Truths it contains.

Judas already has accused of such things and then goes on to say that the Father cannot be ever seen, quoting 1 Timothy 6, only for the word “Father” to never be mentioned in that entire chapter.

I read with clarity and precision, and with an eye of oneness…not with an eye of elitist exclusivity…

.

You do deny the new testament if you deny the higher calling of virginity. Paul is quite clear. You have to maintain in the face not only of Paul’s words, but the words of Jesus regarding Eunuchs (Not literal eunuchs). Why isn’t Christianity during this time allowed to define itself? You give us six hundred years in which you say we were right but then you tell us we were wrong all along. In that case Christianity failed and Jesus’s promise failed.

Tell me was saint Anthony living an immoral life? Tell me was Saint Mary of Egypt denying the will of God in giving up fornication and living in the desert alone? Do you condemn all of these as having failed to live a full life simply because they remained unmarried? How about saint Basil which some bahai try to twist to make him a bahai, was he a failure for being a monastic?

 

[Servant19]

Servent19, you have a vision but it is an impossible vision. Not everyone is going to join hands and sing around a campfire, not everyone is going to submit themselves to the idea of a bahai universal council. You have a vision but no conceivable means of achieving it. It’s a reckless vision which doesn’t take into account human creed and human corruption and it assumes good behind everything. Such a government you want would only end up destroying more of the world in the attempts to create this utopia.

Now I have not rejected your prophet without thought, nor do I imagine most people. Yes there is the gut the reaction, just as you would have a gut reaction against anyone claiming to be your future manifestation. Don’t dismiss people that easily as ignorant and not actually thinking carefully, its an arrogant attitude to have.

Your divine institutions as you call them have done little as far as I’m concerned and want me to think they will do more than the miniscule amount they have already done? If your divine institutions were to head this one world government, you say I have not seen any one world governemnts by which to judge but I have see governments with the type of control that your hypothetical government would have. They are china, they are north korea and they are increasingly the United states of America, freedoms will be demolished for an ideology and that is quite simply the way of any government. You could try to assure me all you like but I don’t place my faith in the power of a human government, even a divine government. Israel was governed by God, given judges and kings yet they failed and you think you can succeed on a much larger level than Israel which was tiny? No, I am not convinced.

Now I do not believe a government run by bahai universal house of justice would or could ensure a policy you are making. No, this would only lead to favour for bahai and bahai alone despite what you think. But how will you exactly achieve such a government? Bahai are forbidden to enter politics after all, bahai are forbidden to proselytise and you are forbidden to debate, a rule you break constantly. You will only convince a small portion of the world and that will be your porition, you wil never convince the entirety.

But talking about these things is useless as they are all hypothetical. You promise a perfect society where all sin is abolished, everyone is happy, there are no wars and etc and quite frankly I think you are lying, not to me but to yourself.

Nope, I am not lying to myself dear brother.

I have seen it, and it can work. People who I never would have imagined to be the bearers of this vision are embracing it and are working towards its fruition.

Your Judgement Day is deciding on how you too can contribute…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

In the Baha’i religion, the status of marriage has been elevated, and indeed the institution of marriage has found its fulfillment through Baha’u’llah Revelation.

Husband and wife are united to fulfil the purpose of their reproductive organs to raise a family that will draw upon the power of the Holy Spirit (through prayer, worship and righteousness amongst many other things) to be the building block for the Kingdom of God on earth.

That is Baha’i marriage.

If one does not find a suitable marriage partner, celibacy is the only remaining alternative…

.

Are we talking about the revelation of your false prophet? No, we are talking about the revelation of Jesus Christ, who affirmed those who became Eunuchs for the kingdom’s sake. Your beliefs are not applicable to the period of the new testament any more than they are to the period of the quran, you need to judge by the standard of the New testament and it alone for the period when Jesus’s followers were true and false.

You discourage celibacy as bahai, saying we ought to marry, your prophet told the monks to do as much, to deny their vows to God and become married.

 

[Servant19]

You do deny the new testament if you deny the higher calling of virginity. Paul is quite clear. You have to maintain in the face not only of Paul’s words, but the words of Jesus regarding Eunuchs (Not literal eunuchs). Why isn’t Christianity during this time allowed to define itself? You give us six hundred years in which you say we were right but then you tell us we were wrong all along. In that case Christianity failed and Jesus’s promise failed.

Tell me was saint Anthony living an immoral life? Tell me was Saint Mary of Egypt denying the will of God in giving up fornication and living in the desert alone? Do you condemn all of these as having failed to live a full life simply because they remained unmarried? How about saint Basil which some bahai try to twist to make him a bahai, was he a failure for being a monastic?

…every religion has a purpose

The purpose of an intimate communion with God, with no distractions of passion, was central to Christianity, through Lord Jesus.

That purpose is expressed in different ways in Islam and the Baha’i Faith.

That intimate communion is expressed through the concept of “detachment from all things” and “self sacrifice for the service of others” in the Baha’i Faith.

We enjoy that intimate communion, while changing society from within, but spiritually “detaching” ourselves from it…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Nope, I am not lying to myself dear brother.

I have seen it, and it can work. People who I never would have imagined to be the bearers of this vision are embracing it and are working towards its fruition.

Your Judgement Day is deciding on how you too can contribute…

.

The Judgement day at the end of time is confessing everything i have done, it is not working to build the tower of babel on earth. Tell me why did God hate them for doing what you are trying to achieve? They united the world, there was one language and peace somewhat. Was it because they disbelieved? That believing in God and not ignoring him is the most important thing to God instead of this one world government you envision?

 

[josie_L]

You do deny the new testament if you deny the higher calling of virginity. Paul is quite clear. You have to maintain in the face not only of Paul’s words, but the words of Jesus regarding Eunuchs (Not literal eunuchs). Why isn’t Christianity during this time allowed to define itself? You give us six hundred years in which you say we were right but then you tell us we were wrong all along. In that case Christianity failed and Jesus’s promise failed.

Tell me was saint Anthony living an immoral life? Tell me was Saint Mary of Egypt denying the will of God in giving up fornication and living in the desert alone? Do you condemn all of these as having failed to live a full life simply because they remained unmarried? How about saint Basil which some bahai try to twist to make him a bahai, was he a failure for being a monastic?

Christ was a virgin!!

 

[Servant19]

Christ was a virgin!!

I fully expect you to be a virgin too then Josie.

In all seriousness, what are the values of celibacy and avoiding marriage?

Is celibacy to be preferred to raising a child within a marriage? A child that may become a saint, a Peter, a John?

Or is giving birth to one who is doomed to sin an evil in Catholicism and Christianity?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on the topic of the OP please

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

One should not get married to fulfill their “passions” and desires.

That is not the purpose of marriage. The purpose of marriage should be to bring forth children that will “make mention of God” and assist in bringing about God’s Message to all corners of the globe where His Light may be diminishing.

So, as a Christian, one should remain single unless the sexual urge is too strong, at which point, marriage is permitted???

Totally read into that.
The idea is this: If you are capable of living celibate, good to be celibate.
Not everyone has that calling, some are meant to be married.

Some how I think you read the two passages, then got stuck on the last part of Paul.

(Bible Bad Again?)

Read both again.

 

[Servant19]

Well let’s find the answer using the Bible: Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan; and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’? So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.”The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.” But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this precept, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”
– (Matthew 19:1-12)
Including the words of Paul:I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.
– (1 Corinthians 7:7-9)

Hi Judas, I have read the quotes again as you requested and have tried to again read it with EXTRA precision and clarity.

I have underlined and bolded the parts I think are pertinent.

Firstly, Jesus urges married couples to become ONE…

This is 100% in line with Baha’u’llah’s teachings. There is no argument there. Why would Ignatian call upon this aspect of Baha’i teaching to criticise Him?

Secondly, I am pretty confident that Jesus is not requesting all Christians to make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Is that what you believe?

If celibacy is a higher calling, then we should all be making ourselves eunuchs. Isn’t that our purpose to strive for the higher communion with the kingdom of heaven? Let us all embrace the request…

No, I think by this passage, Jesus is referring to resisting the passions of the world, so that we may live in the spirit.

That would be the Baha’i understanding, and I hope we would have some commonality there?

Baha’u’llah does not “encourage” celibacy, but advises it as an obligation if the journey of our lives does not lead us towards marriage. It is certainly not a valid reason to label Him a “false prophet”
(trying to bring it more in line with the OP here as per Eric’s kind request)

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Hi Judas, I have read the quotes again as you requested and have tried to again read it with EXTRA precision and clarity.

I have underlined and bolded the parts I think are pertinent.

Firstly, Jesus urges married couples to become ONE…

This is 100% in line with Baha’u’llah’s teachings. There is no argument there. Why would Ignatian call upon this aspect of Baha’i teaching to criticise Him?

Secondly, I am pretty confident that Jesus is not requesting all Christians to make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Is that what you believe?

Don’t know about that Ignatian question, but that part on the eunuchs, “eunuch” didn’t
back then only apply to men who “lost something”rolleyes. Some people are infertile, im-
potent, others are “made eunuch” by the cruelty of men, that more familiar usage of
eunuch, THEN there are people who simply choose the celibate life in devotion to God.

So no, Jesus isn’t telling us men to self-mutilate ourselves below. CONTEXT!

If celibacy is a higher calling, then we should all be making ourselves eunuchs. Isn’t that our purpose to strive for the higher communion with the kingdom of heaven? Let us all embrace the request…

Read Matthew 19 AGAIN! The Apostles made that same
proposition that you just made, but Jesus said that such
is not everyone.

No, I think by this passage, Jesus is referring to resisting the passions of the world, so that we may live in the spirit.

That would be the Baha’i understanding, and I hope we would have some commonality there?

No, you read into the text. The point Jesus and Paul were making was that some are
just not born to be married, others are meant to be married, others still, EVEN if they
could marry and have children, can choose not to marry for the glory of God.

Baha’u’llah does not “encourage” celibacy, but advises it as an obligation if the journey of our lives does not lead us towards marriage. It is certainly not a valid reason to label Him a “false prophet”
(trying to bring it more in line with the OP here as per Eric’s kind request)

You’re right, there are more important reasons why he should be labeled a False Prophet. Interesting though that Baha’u’llah
had three wives when he should have had just one, and that he narrowed down the number of wives permitted at a time to on-
ly two, again despite having three himself. Marriage/Monogamy/Polygamy/Celibacy/etc. though are side issues though, there
are more relevant reasons to conclude that the Bab and Baha’u’llah are false prophets.

 

[kimg901]

This is 100% in line with Baha’u’llah’s teachings

No. They are in line with Christ Teachings, not the other way around. Christ has always been (God) so all these so-called prophets teachings are taken front Christ and are either saying the same thing or have been twisted to mans own needs.

 

[josie_L]

I fully expect you to be a virgin too then Josie.

Well, I’m no hypocrite.

In all seriousness, what are the values of celibacy and avoiding marriage?

Is celibacy to be preferred to raising a child within a marriage? A child that may become a saint, a Peter, a John?

Or is giving birth to one who is doomed to sin an evil in Catholicism and Christianity?

Servant 19, you imply that within Catholicism marriage isn’t valued, in fact, it is considered sacred, i.e., it is one of seven sacraments. This however doesn’t mean that marriage is the only valid option, i.e., celibacy for the sake of Christ, who was himself a virgin, is in itself a higher calling. Most Christians do not have this calling, but those that do, should listen. It is important to understand that all are loved by God, but whatever God’s plan is for you, accept it. Many are called to marriage, others are called to purity, it’s as simple as that.

p.s. Those that consecrate themselves to God do so because they are called and want to follow in Christ’s footsteps.

 

[arthra]

The Day of the Lord mentioned in the Bible is very inclusive and includes all humanity … See:

“I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you . . . that
they may walk in my statutes . . . and they shall be my people, and I will be
their God.” (Ezekiel xi 19-20)

“I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh . . .” (Joel ii 28)

“I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will
be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah xxxi 33)

" . . . the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters
cover the sea." (Isaiah xi 9 and Hab. ii 14)

“And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
Lord, and His Name one.” (Zech. xiv 9)

So we believe these prophecies have been fulfilled.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The Day of the Lord mentioned in the Bible is very inclusive and includes all humanity … See:

“I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you . . . that
they may walk in my statutes . . . and they shall be my people, and I will be
their God.” (Ezekiel xi 19-20)

“I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh . . .” (Joel ii 28)

“I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will
be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah xxxi 33)

" . . . the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters
cover the sea." (Isaiah xi 9 and Hab. ii 14)

“And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one
Lord, and His Name one.” (Zech. xiv 9)

So we believe these prophecies have been fulfilled.

Fits in some areas, but not in all. If you want to use the Bible, use ALL the Bible,
because ALL the Bible has proved against the Baha’i Faith, and Islam to which it
claims succession. You can’t just take bits and pieces of the Bible and use them
to support your religion, you need to use ALL of it. Do you think that Christianity
fails to take into account everything in the Old Testament?

Baha’i fail both Old and New Testament, God’s Word.

 

[josie_L]

Fits in some areas, but not in all. If you want to use the Bible, use ALL the Bible,
because ALL the Bible has proved against the Baha’i Faith, and Islam to which it
claims succession. You can’t just take bits and pieces of the Bible and use them
to support your religion, you need to use ALL of it. Do you think that Christianity
fails to take into account everything in the Old Testament?

Baha’i fail both Old and New Testament, God’s Word.

Maybe there should be a term for this, i.e., “Cafeteria Bible Believers”.